censorship and erotica

[secretme]

Please ready and repost:


http://www.myspace.com/leighannphoenix/blog/545350174

If you repost or blog your own please post a link here...

 

[PennLady]

The problem here is that if a vendor, like Amazon, decides not to sell erotica (or whatever), it's not censorship. It's business. We may not like it, and we can lobby them to change it, but it's not censorship. You are free to continue to read and write erotica (or whatever), you just have to get it elsewhere.

Is it censorship at Literotica that you can't post stories with underage sex or bestiality? No, it's just the rules. If you don't like that, there are other places you can post such stories, or you can start your own website for it. (I'm not saying there might not be consequences for this, I'm just pointing out options.)

 

[secretme]

I can certainly see your point. However:

Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the general body of people as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body.

But I would argue that you can call it business or disguise it with any term you like. But if any organization refuses one type of speech and not others it is a form of censorship.

 

[Etaski]

Businesses are controlling bodies?

Amazon certainly wants to be, so do plenty of other corporations.

But to do what you're implying: allow any and all or risk being called a censor...well, start your own publishing company and see how "inconvenient" some of the boundaries are that people will push on you.

Classic argument by the young trying to individualize their philosophies. It's natural. You'll also learn with time that you have to set boundaries to protect yourself.

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[PennLady]

Amazon is a vendor, a seller of goods, not a government, or a media outlet. It does not (particularly, that I know of) control anything except what it sells. Amazon does sell different types of media (books, music, DVDs), but it does not generate the content of it. It is up to Amazon what it sells or not. If it chooses not to sell erotica, then that's a bummer b/c erotica is not as easy to buy as some other types of literature, but it is not censorship.

If I open a bookstore and decide that I will not carry, let's say, biographies, is that censorship? I am not stopping anyone from writing biographies. Nor am I even preventing people from purchasing them -- they are free to go elsewhere to do that. It is a business decision, albeit a dumb one, no doubt.

Just because an organization, or business, has rules on speech doesn't mean it's censorship. All the professional sports leagues have rules in place regarding coaches (and players) criticizing officials in public, in that it is not allowed and violators are fined; is that censorship? You may think so. I, on the other hand, see it as a violation of the rules that is no doubt clearly expressed in the contract the coach or player signs.

If Amazon doesn't want to sell erotica -- or biographies -- that's not censorship. It's a business making a decision on what it will stock.

 

[secretme]

I guess I'm just not sure why any company would feel the need to control or protect themselves in this way.

For example, Amazon. If you aren't purposefully looking for erotica you're not going to run into in your shopping cart. It's not as if they advertise that it's available there. No one is imposing it upon a shopper. If a person accidentally turns it up in a search, they can chose to not buy it, and even not see anything other than possibly the cover of the book, which is never more risqué than any main stream movie cover.

Or PayPal. No one ever knows who is making a transaction with anyone else. It's private information. I'm not understanding why it would be a logical business practice to refuse transactions for book sales regardless of the content of the material.

I do understand how things progress and the conflict in philosophies. However the new moves that single out erotica seem random and discriminatory. I see no one lobbying to have the material removed from their sites. I'm not sure how the removal would benefit or protect their businesses or practices. Previously there has been no problem with the material being sold through them. And questioning the changes directly with their management has honestly yielded no answers. They aren't able to explain why it is necessary for them to change this policy. In essence it makes no sense.

 

[secretme]

Ultimately whether people agree with me or not it's an individual call. Obviously I have a stake in this since I'm published through eXcessica and they're feeling a squeeze as a result of the new policies.

Honestly I didn't intend to start a philosophical debate on the ideals of censorship. I'm only looking to drum up support for the company and looking for help here seemed logical due to the nature of the Author's Hangout.

I understand the other points of view truly. I hold nothing against anyone who wants to express those views. Freedom of expression is exactly what I'm talking about here.

 

[lovecraft68]

Just tossing something out there as it pertains to business.

What is business about? It's about making money. When someone decides they do not want to sell something the smart competitor picks it up.

There has been a lot going on lately with censorship/business from amazon to pay pal.

I am eagerly awaiting the site that stands up and says "I'll sell fucking anything." because there will make a killing and then watch the others change their stance.

When I had my store I was the only one that carried a full line of adult comics. The others would special order it for someone, but I was the only one with a selection.

I also hosted card tournaments for the kids (magic, yu-gi-oh) so on Saturdays had a store full of minors.

The adult section was in a separate room in the back and I had to go back there with the customer because I had a separate register back there. The kids never went back there and I made a killing.

I did have an instance of one woman saying she knew what was back there and would not bring her son to the games any more.

It was too bad, but his $10 a week did not equal the $1,000 plus a month the adult comics were pulling in.

Business, but in the reverse. The other stores had their morals I made the cash. I also had horror movie nights and the parents had to sign a form saying they knew some would R (for violence mostly not sex) I played and taught dungeons and dragon's and would do tarot card readings for the kids (for free)

Two years before I got tired and decided to close, a bunch of "concerned parents" wanted to shut me down.

Best year of sales I ever had. Sin sells always has always will. Someday big business will stop posing.

 

[PennLady]

I guess I'm just not sure why any company would feel the need to control or protect themselves in this way.

Business. That's it. Let's say I run that bookstore I mentioned above, stocking erotica, and people protest. They stand outside my door with signs, possibly harassing customers. They blog about it, and as a result I lose customers. One recourse is to stop selling the material they object to. Yes, you have a right to write it and I have a right to sell it, but if I have a business to run, I may not have the money to stand on that principle.

For example, Amazon. If you aren't purposefully looking for erotica you're not going to run into in your shopping cart. It's not as if they advertise that it's available there. No one is imposing it upon a shopper. If a person accidentally turns it up in a search, they can chose to not buy it, and even not see anything other than possibly the cover of the book, which is never more risqué than any main stream movie cover.

True, but not really the point. There are plenty of people out there (lord knows) who when they encounter something like that by accident, raise a stink. If they raise a big enough stink, action will be taken. Advertisers pull their ads from television shows that they disagree with, or that they feel their customers will disagree with (and then boycott the advertiser).

I do understand how things progress and the conflict in philosophies. However the new moves that single out erotica seem random and discriminatory. I see no one lobbying to have the material removed from their sites. I'm not sure how the removal would benefit or protect their businesses or practices. Previously there has been no problem with the material being sold through them. And questioning the changes directly with their management has honestly yielded no answers. They aren't able to explain why it is necessary for them to change this policy. In essence it makes no sense.

Well, no one says it has to make sense. Amazon is free to sell or not sell whatever it wants. As for singling out erotica, well, that's likely just a symptom of this country's strange reaction to sex. As for other sites, just because you're not seeing any opposition or protest doesn't mean it isn't there.

Protecting their business -- if Amazon feels it will lose customers, it will change its policy. So if Amazon thinks a large enough contingent of people will stop shopping via Amazon as a way of protesting the fact that Amazon carries erotica, then Amazon may well decide to stop carrying erotica. They would make the decision because to do otherwise would cost them more business than they want to lose (or perhaps could afford to lose).

But even the Wikipedia definition you quoted doesn't apply. Amazon is not a) a government, b) a media outlet or c) a controlling body. Business decisions do not equate to censorship.

 

[sr71plt]

You've just jogged down the wrong path if you call it censorship and jumped out of any meaningful discussion of how to work with it. All of your suggested fixes would be irrelevant to the issue.

Acknowledge it's permitted business choices and you can maybe be part of a meaningful discussion on what to do about it.

 

[PennLady]

Ultimately whether people agree with me or not it's an individual call. Obviously I have a stake in this since I'm published through eXcessica and they're feeling a squeeze as a result of the new policies.

Honestly I didn't intend to start a philosophical debate on the ideals of censorship. I'm only looking to drum up support for the company and looking for help here seemed logical due to the nature of the Author's Hangout.

I understand the other points of view truly. I hold nothing against anyone who wants to express those views. Freedom of expression is exactly what I'm talking about here.

I get all that, really. And I wish eXcessica the best of luck (and wish they'd open up to new author's again ). However, I still don't see this as censorship -- Amazon is free to sell or not what it wants. I would think the best thing to do, as you're starting to, is to drum up support via blogs and find the correct person or department at Amazon to start sending emails to.

 

[lovecraft68]

Business. That's it. Let's say I run that bookstore I mentioned above, stocking erotica, and people protest. They stand outside my door with signs, possibly harassing customers. They blog about it, and as a result I lose customers. One recourse is to stop selling the material they object to. Yes, you have a right to write it and I have a right to sell it, but if I have a business to run, I may not have the money to stand on that principle.

Okay, I understand what you are saying.

Now I know I come across as a whack job and possibly for lack of a better term a loose cannon. However, I'm a hell of lot more savvy than I let on here and probably more educated than most of you would believe from my "persona"

What you have described can be summed up as "fear of loss"

You will cave to the protestors because of fear. That you will lose customers, that you will get a bad rap.

Initially you maybe correct. In the long run you will benefit. People are tired of the moral majority, they are tired of a-holes who try to tie the name of god into their own personal prejudices.

The people who are tired of them, will become your new customers. Good for them that they stood up to the ban it brigade" as Hydra calls them.

This is a microcosm for a persons personality in general. You can play by the rules, play it safe and worry about the opinion of others. Or you can make your stand, take your shot and go for it.

No guarantee it would pan out, but it comes down to will you sleep better "going with the flow" or can you sleep better saying "I held fast and gave it my best"

 

[PennLady]

What you have described can be summed up as "fear of loss"

You will cave to the protestors because of fear. That you will lose customers, that you will get a bad rap.

Initially you maybe correct. In the long run you will benefit. People are tired of the moral majority, they are tired of a-holes who try to tie the name of god into their own personal prejudices.

The people who are tired of them, will become your new customers. Good for them that they stood up to the ban it brigade" as Hydra calls them.

This is a microcosm for a persons personality in general. You can play by the rules, play it safe and worry about the opinion of others. Or you can make your stand, take your shot and go for it.

No guarantee it would pan out, but it comes down to will you sleep better "going with the flow" or can you sleep better saying "I held fast and gave it my best"

But this depends on a lot of things, including whether a business has the capital to weather such a storm. Not all of them do; if you did, then good for you. I'm just pointing out why a business might decide to take a course of action.

And really, it's a bit beside the point. Even if a business does "cave" and stop selling a certain item, that's still not censorship, which is what the OP was about.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The problem is our sheriff, Grady Judd.

Judd's people scour the internet trying to buy porn for criminal prosecution. He bought an eBook on Amazon and successfully had the book's author arrested and extradicted to Florida from Colorado.

 

[lovecraft68]

But this depends on a lot of things, including whether a business has the capital to weather such a storm. Not all of them do; if you did, that good for you. I'm just pointing out why a business might decide to take a course of action.

And really, it's a bit beside the point. Even if a business does "cave" and stop selling a certain item, that's still not censorship, which is what the OP was about.

You're right about capital and how far you want to go into hock until things turn around.

the reason I think that it becomes censorship with erotica is there always seems to be some type of morality behind it. Why else would you not want to carry a money making item?

porn is by far the most lucrative of any internet business.

In paypal's case I feel it is censorship in the sense that they do not "sell" anything they are service. By trying to bully their clients into not carrying erotica they are censoring, because they are taking it to the level of tell you how to run your business and telling the consumer what they can and cannot purchase.

Another point is if you went into the book business and your plan is no erotica, then fine. Now say you do carry erotica meaning that your vision of your business is to do so.

Now someone comes along with the "well if you carry that then etc...." if you cave for them then they have stopped you from selling what you want, they have censored you. You could use the word bullying as well.

 

[lovecraft68]

The problem is our sheriff, Grady Judd.

Judd's people scour the internet trying to buy porn for criminal prosecution. He bought an eBook on Amazon and successfully had the book's author arrested and extradicted to Florida from Colorado.

I'd like some details, because that is very hard to believe.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'd like some details, because that is very hard to believe.

Google Grady Judd/porn.

 

[sr71plt]

Ultimately whether people agree with me or not it's an individual call. Obviously I have a stake in this since I'm published through eXcessica and they're feeling a squeeze as a result of the new policies.

What exactly is the Amazon squeeze eXcessica is experiencing? And your books with eXcessia? Specifically. And what genre are the books that are having a problem with Amazon?

Over 12 percent of eXcessica's total holdings are my books and all of them are still on offer at Amazon and I've been notified of no problems.

What exactly is the eXcessica trouble with Amazon? Or is just Selena's eXcessica books with Amazon? Her incest books.

 

[lovecraft68]

Google Grady Judd/porn.

I hope Miss "Kupps" got a money hungry lawyer, because I don't believe there is a case there.

 

[lovecraft68]

Over 12 percent of eXcessica's total holdings are my books and all of them are still on offer at Amazon and I've been notified of no problems.

That's because no one reads them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I hope Miss "Kupps" got a money hungry lawyer, because I don't believe there is a case there.

Doesnt matter. The cops around here do all kinds of wild and crazee shit, like stalking garden center customers trying to catch pot growers. Most of the time they get a search warrant then find no pot. They dont like lap dancers or bums, either.

 

[secretme]

What exactly is the Amazon squeeze eXcessica is experiencing? And your books with eXcessia? Specifically. And what genre are the books that are having a problem with Amazon?

Over 12 percent of eXcessica's total holdings are my books and all of them are still on offer at Amazon and I've been notified of no problems.

What exactly is the eXcessica trouble with Amazon? Or is just Selena's eXcessica books with Amazon? Her incest books.

I'm not sure who all was on the list that amazon gave her to pull from the site. Mine wasn't one of them. I assume she contacted the authors it pertained to. I feel for all of them. it wasn't just the incest though. I believe it included a number of the other taboo topics, similar to lit. There was also an issue with the nondescript underage stuff, I think. Selena would be a better one to ask that question. Mostly I'm concerned for the other authors on that point. My main concern is the recent PayPal issue. Did you read selena's email where she said she spoke with them and received no answers or good reasons for their sudden change in policy? I don't honestly know what the new plan is or if we're gonna find a good alternative payee. Most people use paypal. At the very least we're gonna lose quite a few customers over this. People aren't logically going to go and open new accounts elsewhere. We are really gonna feel the pinch on this whether we're one of the books in question or not.

 

[PennLady]

You're right about capital and how far you want to go into hock until things turn around.

the reason I think that it becomes censorship with erotica is there always seems to be some type of morality behind it. Why else would you not want to carry a money making item?

What's wrong with not carrying things for moral reasons? There's lots of Christian book stores and obviously they won't carry such things for moral reasons. Doesn't mean it's censorship.

porn is by far the most lucrative of any internet business.

In paypal's case I feel it is censorship in the sense that they do not "sell" anything they are service. By trying to bully their clients into not carrying erotica they are censoring, because they are taking it to the level of tell you how to run your business and telling the consumer what they can and cannot purchase.

Bullying is a good word for it, but it's still not censorship. The businesses can opt not to use PayPal.

Another point is if you went into the book business and your plan is no erotica, then fine. Now say you do carry erotica meaning that your vision of your business is to do so.

Now someone comes along with the "well if you carry that then etc...." if you cave for them then they have stopped you from selling what you want, they have censored you. You could use the word bullying as well.

No, if you cave for them, then you've caved for them. You may have given in to bullying, but it's still not censorship. It is your decision to carry what you carry -- or not -- as you described in your own experience. Whyever you decide to stop carrying something (short of the government blocking you), it is not censorship.

 

[sr71plt]

Google Grady Judd/porn.

It's better to google "phillip greaves prosecution case" because then you get the outcome. An arrest isn't a conviction. (However, he did plead no contest and got probation.)