What were the social rules for romance/"dating" during the nineteenth century?

[erotica_n_s]

What were the social rules for romance/"dating" during the nineteenth century?

I’m originally from South Asia, but I’ve lived over half of my life in the United Kingdom. Personally, I’d consider myself a secular relativist (if you wanted to know).

I wonder if any of you can tell me anything about “dating rules/norms” during the nineteenth century in Europe/North America?

How did men woo/court women during that time? Were there any established rules of “etiquette” for what could or could not be done?

Did young adults (19-24 year-olds) need any “permission” from their parents to marry or date the person of their choice?

Was it considered acceptable for couples to date and then “break up”, or was there any kind of stigma attached to individuals who engaged in multiple short-lived romantic relationships? E.g., if a young man had dated six different women before he was twenty-five years old, would that have been frowned upon? Assume that all the relationships were physically chaste, and assume that each of the relationships lasted just under a year each, would that have been acceptable? Consider that these days, it would be regarded as acceptable.

I’m just wondering… during that era, what were the social attitudes towards pre-marital sex?

Basically I’d like to know if there were any similarities between social attitudes in Europe/America during that era, and present-day attitudes in India.

I can tell you that in India, “arranged marriages” are still largely the norm, although attitudes in India are gradually changing.

In India, pre-marital sex is still heavily frowned upon, and would even be regarded as “scandalous” by some sections of society, whereas others are more accepting of it. Pre-marital romance and “dating” are still largely generally discouraged. In India, “dating” is almost a bad word.

Overall, I’m trying to work out whether the changes in social values and norms that occurred in the “West” over the last few decades/centuries can give me any indication of the changes that can be expected in India over the coming years and decades… (However, I’m aware that “arranged marriages” were never really practiced in the West at any point in history).

Would be deeply grateful for any input you can offer!

 

[bailadora]

… (However, I’m aware that “arranged marriages” were never really practiced in the West at any point in history).

I'm not so sure about that. I'm not much of a historian, but I seem to recall that marriages amongst the aristocracy were more for power and/or wealth than they were for love or affection.

Fire_Breeze is our resident anthropologist, so I'm sure she'll have lots of information to share once she becomes aware of the thread.

In the meantime, would you mind elaborating on/explaining (if you can) the reasoning behind some of the prevailing attitudes/expectations of your culture?

 

[erotica_n_s]

Thanks for your response.

In the meantime, would you mind elaborating on/explaining (if you can) the reasoning behind some of the prevailing attitudes/expectations of your culture?

Well, well, well...

"... I seem to recall that marriages amongst the aristocracy were more for power and/or wealth than they were for love or affection. "

It's exactly the same in modern-day India. Ultimately, it's all about money and, in some cases, power (sadly). People like to dress it up with different pseudo-justifications, but the fact is, it's all about money.

I personally think that it's supremely ironic that people in India often consider themselves "morally superior"/"spiritually richer" than the "decadent" West, while the ugly reality is that people in India are actually shamelessly materialistic, and really only care about money, and nothing else, far more so than the folks in the West. (I can say that comfortably because I'm originally from India myself!).

Let me incidentally mention that, although I'm not in any way ashamed of my ethnicity or my "heritage", nonetheless, I'd like to point out (for whatever little this may be worth) that I don't consider the culture of India to be "my" culture. It happens to be a culture (among many) that I spent some time within, nonetheless, I don't feel that it defines what I am.

 

[Etaski]

Definitely not a "resident anthropologist," but just had a thought or two...

I wonder if any of you can tell me anything about “dating rules/norms” during the nineteenth century in Europe/North America?

First, it was called "courting," and a female had "suitors."

How did men woo/court women during that time? Were there any established rules of “etiquette” for what could or could not be done?

Suitor had to approach father to gain permission to court a young lady (mother probably had some persuasive sway over father's approval behind the scenes). If he approved, the suitor could call upon the young lady and they could get to know each other (with and without chaperones).

Always fuzzy on how long a courtship needed to be before the man could get down on bended-knee and propose marriage to the young lady. If she said yes, then the suitor again had to go back to the father to ask for his blessing.

Did young adults (19-24 year-olds) need any “permission” from their parents to marry or date the person of their choice?

Yesss....although I think there were plenty of examples of elopement ("running off together").

Also the ages to a little too high. 16-22 are the ages I was more familiar with. An unmarried 24-year-old was a "spinster."

Was it considered acceptable for couples to date and then “break up”, or was there any kind of stigma attached to individuals who engaged in multiple short-lived romantic relationships? E.g., if a young man had dated six different women before he was twenty-five years old, would that have been frowned upon? Assume that all the relationships were physically chaste, and assume that each of the relationships lasted just under a year each, would that have been acceptable? Consider that these days, it would be regarded as acceptable.

Interesting...I am not sure. The stories seem to say that any man who ran around courting a lot of ladies was a "cad" and yes, it was frowned upon. Scandalous if he was courting more than one at a time.

Breaking up...both sexes could do, with the usual drama.

I’m just wondering… during that era, what were the social attitudes towards pre-marital sex?

It ruined the girl's reputation irreparably. The boy....ehhh, maybe not. A lot of young men had their first sexual experiences with prostitutes.

Basically I’d like to know if there were any similarities between social attitudes in Europe/America during that era, and present-day attitudes in India.

Unknown for me. I don't have enough experience with India, although there seems to be, based one what you wrote.

 

[bailadora]

Definitely not a "resident anthropologist," but just had a thought or two...

And good thoughts they are! I didn't mean to imply that no one else would have any knowledge regarding this subject, so I'm sorry if it came across that way. I just happen to know that anthropology is a particular field of interest/study for FB and that she is usually a good resource to tap regarding these kinds of subjects.

Let me incidentally mention that, although I'm not in any way ashamed of my ethnicity or my "heritage", nonetheless, I'd like to point out (for whatever little this may be worth) that I don't consider the culture of India to be "my" culture. It happens to be a culture (among many) that I spent some time within, nonetheless, I don't feel that it defines what I am.

*winces*

I missed the part where you said you spent over half your life in the UK. I'm sorry if the phrasing of my question hit a nerve. I understand what you mean when you say that the culture of India is not "your" culture. But I wonder if you've found that certain influences from that background are part of the way you think about things. I'm an American of Mexican descent and while I've lived my entire life in the States, I do find that there is some cultural crossover WRT to the way I think about and perceive certain things.

 

[fire_breeze]

I’m originally from South Asia, but I’ve lived over half of my life in the United Kingdom. Personally, I’d consider myself a secular relativist (if you wanted to know).

I wonder if any of you can tell me anything about “dating rules/norms” during the nineteenth century in Europe/North America?

How did men woo/court women during that time? Were there any established rules of “etiquette” for what could or could not be done?

Did young adults (19-24 year-olds) need any “permission” from their parents to marry or date the person of their choice?

Was it considered acceptable for couples to date and then “break up”, or was there any kind of stigma attached to individuals who engaged in multiple short-lived romantic relationships? E.g., if a young man had dated six different women before he was twenty-five years old, would that have been frowned upon? Assume that all the relationships were physically chaste, and assume that each of the relationships lasted just under a year each, would that have been acceptable? Consider that these days, it would be regarded as acceptable.

I’m just wondering… during that era, what were the social attitudes towards pre-marital sex?

Basically I’d like to know if there were any similarities between social attitudes in Europe/America during that era, and present-day attitudes in India.

I can tell you that in India, “arranged marriages” are still largely the norm, although attitudes in India are gradually changing.

In India, pre-marital sex is still heavily frowned upon, and would even be regarded as “scandalous” by some sections of society, whereas others are more accepting of it. Pre-marital romance and “dating” are still largely generally discouraged. In India, “dating” is almost a bad word.

Overall, I’m trying to work out whether the changes in social values and norms that occurred in the “West” over the last few decades/centuries can give me any indication of the changes that can be expected in India over the coming years and decades… (However, I’m aware that “arranged marriages” were never really practiced in the West at any point in history).

Would be deeply grateful for any input you can offer!

Oy. You do realise that you absolutely cannot paint a particular social norm in the 19th century (or any century) Europe/North America with a single brush, right? Rules were different for the nobility, for the middle class, for the working class, for the poor. Rules were different in England, in Ireland, in France, in Vienna, in Italia, in Budapest, in Warsaw, in Moscow..... see where I'm going with this? Rules were very very different in the Northeast United States than in the Southern United States.

I'd like to elaborate on some excellent points brought up by Etaski . It was called 'courting' and not dating. Women had suitors, and for those who were well-off or from an upper-class family, this happened after she had her debutante ball. She was presented to society and as considered to be an adult and therefore 'on the market'. Potential suitors approached the parents. In some cases, only the father, in central Europe, for example, the mother most absolutely had to be there. If the gentleman in question wasn't considered to be 'suitable' (wrong family, wrong job, not enough money, not good enough lineage, scandal), he was out of luck. IF he passed the test, then he was able to call upon the young lady. He had to not only impress herm but her family as well. Dates were chaperoned. They talked, and got to know each other.

A girl could have multiple suitors, and in fact, often did. No, she was not considered to be a slut. She didn't (or ideally speaking didn't, but reality is she may have) sleep with them. Having multiple suitors meant that she had something unique and valuable to offer. Interestingly enough, as Etaski pointed out, men were limited to pressing their suit to one women at a time. It was perfectly acceptable for women to have multiple suitors - especially at the beginning (and then after a certain period of time, her parents would press her to choose), whereas for men, they didn't have that option.

It was considered to be bad form to accept a proposal whilst the lady is being courted by other men. She will make her decision, and start naturally - and politely - decline other suits. Usually, though, her first season, she is courted by multiple men. Again, depending on the society, she may chose at the end of her season (especially if she was a popular debutante), or she may wait until after a season, and then during the post-season, where she had a chance to really get to know her suitor.

'Dates' were always chaperoned, either by her (or his) relatives, or by a duenna, to ensure that proper etiquette was enforced (and this also helped to protect the girl from unwanted advances) and that nothing illicit and shameful happened.

A gentleman could court multiple women, but rules were different. He did it one at a time, as mentioned before, and it didn't look good if he seriously courted more than one women (consecutively). If he's pressing his suit, and it gets rejected, well... doesn't bode well, does it? If he presses his suit number of times and it all gets rejected, then rumours will fly that there's something seriously wrong with this man.

Premarital sex was frowned upon. However, and this is something I emphasise in my lectures, it does not mean that they didn't happen. They did. And probably more frequently than we all assume. The major difference is that these things were not talked about. But yes, if the couple was caught in flagrante delicto, then they would be encouraged to get married. Sometimes even at gun point

Remember, marriage for romantic love began to truly develop in the late 18thC, 19th century. Why? Simple. Marriage at that time was considered to be a familial contract. Two families had mutual benefits to unite, so they did. Granted, a good match one always hoped that the players at least respected each other. For love, people often looked outside of the marriage, and both parties knew about it and usually accepted it. The trick was to be discreet or to play with acceptable social standards (cicisbeos for examples, was a completely acceptable social institution). However, affairs was reserved for the very rich or the aristocracy.

I don't know enough about modern India, and what I do know about Indian culture is most about 6th C BCE, so soz, can't help you there.

<snip>

Fire_Breeze is our resident anthropologist, so I'm sure she'll have lots of information to share once she becomes aware of the thread.

Shucks *kicks at an invisible rock*

And good thoughts they are! I didn't mean to imply that no one else would have any knowledge regarding this subject, so I'm sorry if it came across that way. I just happen to know that anthropology is a particular field of interest/study for FB and that she is usually a good resource to tap regarding these kinds of subjects.

Careful, Bail... you're making me blush! (and it's study )


Etaski brought up excellent points, particularly how it pertains to courtship in London/USA's social structure, so you'd be wise to read her response. I'm more familiar with Central European and Italian social structures. Hopefully, it helps.

 

[Ironiclaconic]

Cultural changes are often driven hard by economic and technological changes. My expectation is that dating norms in India will change much faster than in the west due to economic and technological options available today to educated Indians. Hard for parents to enforce a marriage choice if the kid can take off and get a high paying programming job in America and marry whoever they want. I would then expect those changing norms to filter down the social ladder like most other cultural changes.

Keep in mind that literature is often more prescriptive than descriptive. It's hard to get accurate sources of how people actually behaved. That said, comparisons of marriage records with birth records in American history point to a high rate of shotgun weddings. Looks like a lot of couples had sex once engaged or had sex with the implicit or explicit understanding that they would get married if the girl got knocked up.

 

[Etaski]

Keep in mind that literature is often more prescriptive than descriptive. It's hard to get accurate sources of how people actually behaved. That said, comparisons of marriage records with birth records in American history point to a high rate of shotgun weddings. Looks like a lot of couples had sex once engaged or had sex with the implicit or explicit understanding that they would get married if the girl got knocked up.

I always get mental images of the Hatfields and the McCoys in Appalachia with a 10-gauge ("Dang flea-bitten scoundrel, you'll make a honest woman uh mah daughter er Ah'll blast yer pecker off!!)... but yes, this was very, very true in the States all the way up through the 1970s at least.

The musical "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers" touched on this in very amusing (and subtle, surprisingly tasteful) ways.

 

[Ironiclaconic]

Frances Fukuyama has an interesting book on the subject, arguing that the huge spike in divorces and single parenthood in the 60s and 70s was rooted in the death of the shotgun wedding- killed by the birth control pill. The logic is that once women had the pill men were able to get sex without making a promise to marry the girl if she got pregnant. Hijinks ensued. Interesting stuff.

 

[bailadora]

Shucks *kicks at an invisible rock*

Careful, Bail... you're making me blush! (and it's study )

Aw - you know I have a girl crush on you.

 

[erotica_n_s]

Thanks for your responses!

Bailadora, you did NOT “hit a nerve”! I was NOT offended or hurt by your comments at all, I’m sorry if I gave you that impression.

I just felt I wanted people to understand me, so felt I had to explain myself clearly.

Undeniably, yes, my Indian background has influenced my lifestyle. I speak a couple of Indian languages. I watch Indian films. I listen to Indian music. I eat Indian food.

Equally, I would say that my “first language” is English (i.e. it’s the language I’m most comfortable with). I listen to a lot of “western” music (American and European; rock, pop, metal as well as “classical” music). I watch Hollywood films, too… you get the drift…

I choose to remain a virgin until I’m married. That’s the influence of my Indian upbringing. Doesn’t mean I consider any other option to be “immoral”.

It’s just that, I don’t consider myself to be a member of any single culture or community. I’m my own person, an individual who has my own views.

Incidentally, the female protagonists in most of my stories are women from India. Equally, consider that the male protagonists in most of my stories are Caucasian! (Yes, I’m a bit of a cuckold fantasist – judge me how you will).

Thanks all!