America: NOW are you ready for proportional representation?

KingOrfeo

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In the past few years I've heard a lot from lefties disappointed with Obama. In the past few months I've heard a lot from Tea Partiers and libertarians frustrated with the GOP.

But, what else ya gonna do? Throw your vote away on a third party?

The problem is that America's single-member-district winner-take-all plurality system for electing legislatures marginalizes third parties, just by mechanical operation. See Duverger's Law. Or, as that respected polysci publication TVTropes puts it:

America uses a first-past-the-post voting system — in any election, one vote is cast and the candidate/option with the most votes is the winner, even if a majority did not vote for it. Quick example: In an election between A, B, and C, A gets 35%, B gets 45%, and C gets 20%. B wins, even though 55% of the electorate voted against it. If it seems to you that the A and C supporters should have teamed up and pooled their votes rather than splitting them, congratulations — you've just discovered why America has only two major political parties. Using political science it can be shown that plurality elections tend to lead to two-party systems, which is exactly what happened in America.

Or put another way: Suppose, in your state's next legislative election, 20% of the voters decide to vote Green (or substitute your favorite) this year. And suppose they actually manage to get a Green candidate on the ballot in every district. (Not likely, but third-party ballot access is a different problem.) How many Greens get into the state legislature? Almost certainly none -- because there are not enough Green voters in any one district to form a majority or plurality there.

And that's why, no matter who you are or what your politics, you will find yourself making such strange and unpleasant bedfellows, if you are active in either major party. It has to be a "big tent" to win.

The same mechanics don't apply in race where there is only one office to be won, like the presidency or a governorship or mayorship.* But the parties created for legislative races are the real ones, a necessary foundation for anything else. Ross Perot tried creating a third party for presidential elections only -- when's the last you heard of it?

If you're frustrated with all that, change the rules of the game! Start (or join) a movement to change to proportional representation! There are many forms of it; the point of all of them is that if the Greens, or sub your fave, get 20% of the votes, they get very roughly 20% of the seats.

Let all the various discontented non-dominant political factions who can't stand each other agree to work side by side on just this one cause. Then, once we have PR, you can participate in a smaller, more ideologically homogeneous party, which will actually get representation in your state legislature and Congress; and then the indispensable compromises of policy-making can be made in Congress, where everyone can (better) watch, instead of being made within major-party caucuses. Better.


* Different anti-third-party mechanics operate in a single-office election. Those can be remedied by instant-runoff voting and electoral fusion.
 
There is a reason the founding fathers did not do it your way.

What would that be and why should we care? They got a lot of things wrong. And they did their work before PR had been conceived by anyone -- just the form of democracy they were putting together was radical enough for its time. (PR was invented, more or less, by Thomas Wright Hill (British) in 1821.)
 
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You are right. They got a lot wrong in building the framework for the greatest country in the history of the planet. What fools they were. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
You are right. They got a lot wrong in building the framework for the greatest country in the history of the planet. What fools they were. Thanks for setting me straight.

Yeah, the dems want a "living" document that they can shape any which way they want. To them laws don't make a difference, only cronyism and favortism for their campaign donors.
 
Yeah, the dems want a "living" document that they can shape any which way they want. To them laws don't make a difference, only cronyism and favortism for their campaign donors.

What you are describing is always more honest than pretending invocation of the Framers ends the argument.
 
Yeah, the dems want a "living" document that they can shape any which way they want. To them laws don't make a difference, only cronyism and favortism for their campaign donors.

Yeah.. lets get it back to the way it was... like the Founders intended.. ya know.. with slavery, and women can't vote
 
Been an advocate of Proportional Representation for years. I'm all for it, but I don't believe it will ever happen. Maybe a the state level it could but I don't think the Constitution would allow it for Congress.
 
Yeah.. lets get it back to the way it was... like the Founders intended.. ya know.. with slavery, and women can't vote

The vast majority of men couldn't vote either until much later. You always manage to leave out facts to make women seem like they are especially victimized.
 
Yeah.. lets get it back to the way it was... like the Founders intended.. ya know.. with slavery, and women can't vote

Damn toottin!

Here's my plan! After I'm elected I'm gonna hire the biggest effin Niggaz on the planet, and pay them NFL wages to supervize the bruthas. If Germaine wont get outta bed and go to work or school, call us and we'll send a team over to motivate yo boy and make sure he stay on the straight and narrow.
 
Damn toottin!

Here's my plan! After I'm elected I'm gonna hire the biggest effin Niggaz on the planet, and pay them NFL wages to supervize the bruthas. If Germaine wont get outta bed and go to work or school, call us and we'll send a team over to motivate yo boy and make sure he stay on the straight and narrow.

If he don't get his diploma, he don't get no check neither.
 
There were no political parties when America passed the Constitution, and you cant be more proportional than that. But even then the sundry assclowns couldnt get votes.
 
Been an advocate of Proportional Representation for years. I'm all for it, but I don't believe it will ever happen. Maybe a the state level it could but I don't think the Constitution would allow it for Congress.

I expect the UK will do it first. And then the PR movement will begin to start to prepare to take off in America -- just because the American media will, for the first time, have to explain to the American people what PR is. Most have never heard of it. Politicians I have asked have never heard of it; one thought by "proportional representation" I meant minority-majority districting. (Racial gerrymandering becomes a non-problem under PR, BTW; blacks can effectively pool their votes behind a black candidate, or not, according to their individual preferences, no special districting necessary, and regardless of whether they happen to live in a black-majority neighborhood or not.)
 
The problem is that America's single-member-district winner-take-all plurality system for electing legislatures marginalizes third parties, just by mechanical operation.


I think of this as a feature rather than a bug. It's not fashionable to say so, but I think the two-party system has been good for America.

I believe you would be better served putting time and effort into something that is actually doable: lessening the impact of gerrymandering, so we can put a halt to the practice of politicians picking their voters instead of the other way around. The House is much less responsive to shifts in public mood than it used to be, and the increasing sophistication of gerrymandering is the major reason.
 
I think of this as a feature rather than a bug. It's not fashionable to say so, but I think the two-party system has been good for America.

Why?

I believe you would be better served putting time and effort into something that is actually doable: lessening the impact of gerrymandering, so we can put a halt to the practice of politicians picking their voters instead of the other way around. The House is much less responsive to shifts in public mood than it used to be, and the increasing sophistication of gerrymandering is the major reason.

That's another problem. The best solution would be to take districting away from the state legislature and put it in the hands of an independent nonpartisan or multipartisan (not bipartisan) commission.
 
...That's another problem. The best solution would be to take districting away from the state legislature and put it in the hands of an independent nonpartisan or multipartisan (not bipartisan) commission.

I'm certainly not praising Canada's system, its got major flaws (for one, a Queen? Seriously? Its 2011 people) but it doesn't seem to have a major problem with gerrymandering. Elections Canada, an independent body, does seem to be able to draw the districts without undue political influence, at least I don't think there are a lot of complaints.
 
And it looks like you will never stop being a racist douche.

so are you saying that slavery was originally illegal in the Constitution?

and women could always vote?

or are you being a dumbass?

these are tricky questions.. because only one them is a yes answer
 
If you're frustrated with all that, change the rules of the game! Start (or join) a movement to change to proportional representation! There are many forms of it; the point of all of them is that if the Greens, or sub your fave, get 20% of the votes, they get very roughly 20% of the seats.

There is a bit of a problem here. If you have a juristdiction where there are say a hundred seats under traditional rules the top vote getter wins the seat and represents the district. If a party wins 20% of the vote and gets 20% of the seats who do these representitives represent and who are they responsible to? No one as far as I can see.

Where do these bonus seats come from? If 100 reps. originally could do the job why do you suddenly need 130? Wasting taxpayers money perhaps?

If you put proportional representation to a popular vote (as a couple of Canadian Provinces have) it will be rejected for various reasons the main one being that the vast majority of the voters vote for the two main parties and do not want the minor let in under a non-representitive guise. Try it.

I'm certainly not praising Canada's system, its got major flaws (for one, a Queen? Seriously? Its 2011 people) but it doesn't seem to have a major problem with gerrymandering. Elections Canada, an independent body, does seem to be able to draw the districts without undue political influence, at least I don't think there are a lot of complaints.

Thing here is that we have inherited a system which is somewhat archaic but with which we have to live with. Proposals for reform would simply ingnite a political firestorm that would rage for decades perhaps and not accomplish much.

We have no problems with gerrymandering or voter fraud. The Queen/Govoner General are pure figureheads though historically the offices held absolute power. The system could use some reform but I think attention to details would be more sensible than overt reform.

As per proportional representation I would like to see someone else go first
 
Damn toottin!

Here's my plan! After I'm elected I'm gonna hire the biggest effin Niggaz on the planet, and pay them NFL wages to supervize the bruthas. If Germaine wont get outta bed and go to work or school, call us and we'll send a team over to motivate yo boy and make sure he stay on the straight and narrow.

You can't even win being elected president of your bladder
 
The vast majority of men couldn't vote either until much later. You always manage to leave out facts to make women seem like they are especially victimized.

the vast of majority of men couldnt vote...ah okay.. I guess that makes the ENTIRETY of women not being allowed to vote perfectly cool, right?

and slavery was cool too.. gotvha


you always manage to never actually know ...anything...
 
There are several systems of proportional representation and each leads to different results.

The European Parliament is elected by proportional representation and minority parties get some seats even though most voters don't want them.
 
The European Parliament is elected by proportional representation and minority parties get some seats even though most voters don't want them.

Well, that is the point of PR, to make sure the minor parties get some seats if some voters want them.
 
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