Separation of Church and State (in U.S.)

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An interesting timeline from the current issue of Smithsonian Magazine:

"There is no evidence that Thomas Jefferson ever read of a "wall of separation" in Roger Williams' work, but in 1802 Jefferson wrote a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, citing his "reverence" for the First Amendment for "building a wall of separation between Church & State." That letter brought the "wall" image into wider usage, fueling a running argument over its meaning, especially in the Supreme Court.
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1878
In Reynolds v. U.S., the court unanimously rejected a Mormon’s challenge to a federal law banning bigamy, saying religious practices judged to be criminal had no constitutional protection. Jefferson’s letter, the court held, “may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] amendment.”


1947
New Jersey could pay to transport students to parochial as well as public schools, the court ruled, 5-4, in Everson v. Board of Education. The church-state wall “must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the lightest breach,” the opinion said, but New Jersey “has not breached it here.”


1948
However, the First Amendment does forbid religious instruction on public-school property during the school day, the court ruled, 8-1, in McCollum v. Board of Education. “This,” the opinion said, “is not separation of Church and State.”


1952
But public schools could release students during the day for religious instruction elsewhere, the court ruled, 6-1, in Zorach v. Clauson. The majority’s opinion said the First Amendment “does not say that, in every and all respects there shall bea separation of Church and State.”


1962
Public schools could not institute a daily prayer, even if it was voluntary and nondenominational, the court held, 6-3, in Engel v. Vitale. Justice Potter Stewart dissented that “constitutional adjudication is not responsibly aided by the uncritical invocation of metaphors like the ‘wall of separation.’ ”


1984
The city of Pawtucket, Rhode Island, could include a crèche in Christmas decorations in a public place, the court ruled, 5-4, in Lynch v. Donnelly. “The [wall] metaphor itself is not a wholly accurate description of the practical aspects of the relationship that in fact exists between church and state,” the majority said


2005
Texas could display the Ten Commandments at its capitol, but Kentucky counties could not do so at courthouses, the court ruled in Van Orden v. Perry and McCreary County, Kentucky v. ACLU of Kentucky. Why? Texas’ display was in a secular context, with other symbols of “people, ideals and events that compose Texan identity.”


2011
“Since Van Orden and McCreary, lower courts have understandably expressed confusion,” Justice Clarence Thomas wrote in dissent after the court declined to hear a case involving crosses displayed beside Utah highways in honor of police officers who died in the line of duty. A lower court had ruled against such displays.

From The Smithsonian Magazine, current issue. Related Article: God, Government and Roger Williams' Big Idea."

Your comments?
 
Sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

Separate.

Keep God off my money.
Keep the Bible out of my court.
Keep religion out of biology class.
 
In other words, let the people duke it out amongst themselves...is that how you spell amongst?

Looks funny.
 
1962
Public schools could not institute a daily prayer, even if it was voluntary and nondenominational, the court held, 6-3, in Engel v. Vitale. Justice Potter Stewart dissented that “constitutional adjudication is not responsibly aided by the uncritical invocation of metaphors like the ‘wall of separation.’ ”

I was unaware of this quote from Stewart, but it is brilliant. Courts have spent far more time adjudicating the phrase "wall of separation" (that is NOT in the Constitution) than they have adjudicating "make no law" which is actually part of the Constitution.
 
I was unaware of this quote from Stewart, but it is brilliant. Courts have spent far more time adjudicating the phrase "wall of separation" (that is NOT in the Constitution) than they have adjudicating "make no law" which is actually part of the Constitution.

Excellent point.
 
Why?

Let God hang out in the church with people that want to hang out with him. Leave the government to do its job without the added pressure/diversion of religion.

Not for us to decide.

Everybody gets to have or not have God in public places as they prefer.

Take the whole holiday season situation: the Christians want to put up a nativity display, the Jews a menorah, the iSlammers a girl hanging from a crane, etc., right? Well, the Atheists want no display at all. Fine. To make it fair, everybody gets the display they want -- even the Atheists, since the remainder of the park has "nothing" on display -- which is in keeping with their wishes. To do otherwise, you see, would favor the Atheists over everybody else, as their display is present 11 months of the year.

:)
 
Not for us to decide.

Everybody gets to have or not have God in public places as they prefer.

Take the whole holiday season situation: the Christians want to put up a nativity display, the Jews a menorah, the iSlammers a girl hanging from a crane, etc., right? Well, the Atheists want no display at all. Fine. To make it fair, everybody gets the display they want -- even the Atheists, since the remainder of the park has "nothing" on display -- which is in keeping with their wishes. To do otherwise, you see, would favor the Atheists over everybody else, as their display is present 11 months of the year.

:)

I am with you on this. However, I think it sucks that my city puts up Christmas lights. Yeah, they are pretty and its the season and all of that, but what does it accomplish? Nothing, really. Burns up worker hours, energy, and tax dollars.

I want you to free to worship however you want, as long as laws are not violated. I think the Mormons should be able to have multiple wives, as long as both parties entering the relationship are consenting adults. I do not think Catholic priests should be allowed to bugger little boys.

Religious freedoms need a framework of laws. Laws do not need a framework of Jesus.
 
(snip)Religious freedoms need a framework of laws. Laws do not need a framework of Jesus.

Pay particular attention to this quote. Far to many who are in the majority see it as appropriate to stuff their particular superstitious beliefs down some else's throat, but when and if the tables are turned seem to have no trouble yelling about suppression of their religious beliefs. To retain our freedom this country needs to uphold a simple philosophy, what's good for the goose is good for the goosee.
If it's good for you it's good for everyone.

A seemingly simplistic statement that has through the course of human evolution been taught by almost every religious system since the dawn of recorded history. There are many names and titles for it. Christians know it as the golden rule.
"Do unto others."
You don't want other folks trying to shove what they believe down your throat? Then don't do it to others. You want freedom? Then it has to be extended to all who are Americans, not just the majority. To keep freedom safe, you mush give and share what you demand. Do anything less and you will not only be a hypocrite, but in the end pervert and destroy what you seek to preserve.




Comshaw
 

Pay particular attention to this quote. Far to many who are in the majority see it as appropriate to stuff their particular superstitious beliefs down some else's throat, but when and if the tables are turned seem to have no trouble yelling about suppression of their religious beliefs. To retain our freedom this country needs to uphold a simple philosophy, what's good for the goose is good for the goosee.
If it's good for you it's good for everyone.

A seemingly simplistic statement that has through the course of human evolution been taught by almost every religious system since the dawn of recorded history. There are many names and titles for it. Christians know it as the golden rule.
"Do unto others."
You don't want other folks trying to shove what they believe down your throat? Then don't do it to others. You want freedom? Then it has to be extended to all who are Americans, not just the majority. To keep freedom safe, you mush give and share what you demand. Do anything less and you will not only be a hypocrite, but in the end pervert and destroy what you seek to preserve.




Comshaw

That said, the history of this country, at least, shows that religious tolerance has stood along side religious intolerance from day one.
 
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The context of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was a fear not that religion would pollute the public discourse, but that politicians, who in those days were also ministers, would assert their public status as providing them elevated stature in their ministries, a stature to which they were not entitled.

So, "separation of state and church" is the nexus really. And all those moronic fuckheads who conspiratorially believe that the clergy are trying to hijack our (utterly secular) society might want to leave the important thinking to them as are more capable of it.
 
The context of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was a fear not that religion would pollute the public discourse, but that politicians, who in those days were also ministers, would assert their public status as providing them elevated stature in their ministries, a stature to which they were not entitled.

So, "separation of state and church" is the nexus really. And all those moronic fuckheads who conspiratorially believe that the clergy are trying to hijack our (utterly secular) society might want to leave the important thinking to them as are more capable of it.

You're not suggesting the constitution should be read in context, are you?
 
One problem (of many) that plagues liberals is how they pick and choose which parts of the Constitution they believe in....they piss and moan about having religion shoved down their throats (as if) while insisting private citizens don't have a right to own firearms.
 
One problem (of many) that plagues liberals is how they pick and choose which parts of the Constitution they believe in....they piss and moan about having religion shoved down their throats (as if) while insisting private citizens don't have a right to own firearms.

Not really. It's a popular myth to scare small minded people but the vast majority of the left could give a fuck less about your guns.
 
One problem (of many) that plagues liberals is how they pick and choose which parts of the Constitution they believe in....they piss and moan about having religion shoved down their throats (as if) while insisting private citizens don't have a right to own firearms.

Riiiight. And the right to peaceably assemble?
 
One problem (of many) that plagues liberals is how they pick and choose which parts of the Constitution they believe in....they piss and moan about having religion shoved down their throats (as if) while insisting private citizens don't have a right to own firearms.

Your broad brush is mistaken.

Knock before entering my house. Trust me on this.
 
I was unaware of this quote from Stewart, but it is brilliant. Courts have spent far more time adjudicating the phrase "wall of separation" (that is NOT in the Constitution) than they have adjudicating "make no law" which is actually part of the Constitution.

Good point. I wonder why?

Oh, maybe because no government has tried to "make a law" establishing a state religion? If they did, they'd be no constitutional question, it's there in black and white. The adjudicating is required for all those little gray areas in between.
 
Good point. I wonder why?

Oh, maybe because no government has tried to "make a law" establishing a state religion? If they did, they'd be no constitutional question, it's there in black and white. The adjudicating is required for all those little gray areas in between.

Define "government"?
 
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