Is the Word "Faggot" the New "N" word?

[Stella_Omega]

Uhm...what's the D-word?

When my daughter was in 5th grade, someone said the N-word in front of her, and she had to ask what it was. For being the great-granddaughter of a member of the KKK, I think that's progress.

That her parents don't throw the word around infront of her? Yes, that's progress.

So when Charlie (a heterosexual) privately calls his roommate, Mack (also hetero), "faggot," and it is meant and taken in jest, is that something the GLBT community would take offense to? Because it is certainly something that hetero guys throw at each other to needle each other. Is this something that I, as an author, should be more sensitive to?

Yes, it is-- but if it's right for your story, then you do it anyway, and be true to the text. If somehow you end up with GLBT folk mad at you the writer, rather than at your characters-- well, that would be a problem with your authorship. It can be done.

To me true Niggers (Keep in mind I am not referring to the common black folk I am referring to niggers. See any rap video for who I am speaking of.) constantly refer to each other as niggers. Somehow this is okay, but don;t you or I say it.

That's correct as well. For one reason, you are not a "true nigger" by anyone's standards, and certainly not by theirs.

Shit has become all twisted, I agree. It is very similar to what happened to vulgar, which originally meant 'of the common man' or something not as bad as it now holds.

No, in my opinion, shit has become less twisted. Instead of YOU defining the words that you use about me, I do. I get to tell you what I will and will not countenance. You don't get to tell me what I must accept.

And considering the attitudes of "the common man" and they ways in which "the common man" has persecuted everyone who is percieved as not being common-- I think "Vulgar" has mutated quite correctly.

The problem with the 'Q' word - 'Fag' or 'N' word, also - is that their meanings automatically imply stereotype, as in it now has instant cultural meanings, instead of simply being a descriptor of: not as usual.

It's still a descriptor of "Not as usual." That's exactly what it means and what it means when queer folk use it.

Stupid PC Police...

I am the "PC police." I am the person who demands that you not be a fuckwad when you talk to me, about me, or about the people like me.

Just so you know.

Exactly, instantaneous cultural meaning beyond the actual meaning. Sad times. Facists.

You mean-- there never was an instantaneous cultural meaning beyond the actual meaning before this?
Or is it that the meaning has changed, and not in a way that suits you?

 

[PayDay]

Just so you know.

No, in my opinion, shit has become less twisted. Instead of YOU defining the words that you use about me, I do. I get to tell you what I will and will not countenance. You don't get to tell me what I must accept.

And considering the attitudes of "the common man" and they ways in which "the common man" has persecuted everyone who is percieved as not being common-- I think "Vulgar" has mutated quite correctly.
It's still a descriptor of "Not as usual." That's exactly what it means and what it means when queer folk use it.
I am the "PC police." I am the person who demands that you not be a fuckwad when you talk to me, about me, or about the people like me.

Just so you know.
You mean-- there never was an instantaneous cultural meaning beyond the actual meaning before this?
Or is it that the meaning has changed, and not in a way that suits you?

Woah, WOAH, WOAH!!
Woah.

1st. I respect your opinion, and agree with your right to have it, no insult was intended, at all.

2nd. Take everything I said and react in the total opposite of the way you did, for my intention was not to insult, only to state a viewpoint that contrasts but slightly agrees.

Language and context door works both ways.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Safe, what I find unbelievable, in this day and age, is that someone cannot ask a genuine, heartfelt question without being attacked as insensitive for doing so.

As I observe society, I've detected a shift in meanings to a word. If there was a memo sent out about it, I missed it. If I was supposed to magically "know" better, then apparently I was too busy writing porn or sucking dick between bouts of fucking my wife's pussy to realize it.

What I believe you're missing is the genuine interest I have (one I believe many others share) to control the messages delivered by my words. I have not intended to anger or disrespect a single soul. Shit, I'm trying to make sure I DON'T do that unintentionally. Chill out, I believe every one who has posted in reply shares my sincere interest to be more considerate with their word choices. IMHO, that does not warrant your "unbelievable" and "you should know better" attacks.

Oh spare me the "poor me" victimization, dude.

If you honestly didn't know "faggot" was a term that is VERY offensive to queer folk then you are so far back in the closet that you should see Narnia.

BTW, as long as you're back there, say "Hi" to SR71. He's usual back by the women's shoes stomping his foot and getting pissy.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Woah, WOAH, WOAH!!
Woah.

1st. I respect your opinion, and agree with your right to have it, no insult was intended, at all.

2nd. Take everything I said and react in the total opposite of the way you did, for my intention was not to insult, only to state a viewpoint that contrasts but slightly agrees.

Language and context door works both ways.

I'm not angry at you, honestly-- I'm just saying it as I see it.

It isn't about you at all, and the ways in which groups of people chose to name themselves, and to share their names or not-- that isn't about you either.

And yes, two straight guys who insult each other by calling each other "faggot" have insulted every gay man at the very same time. Why? Because they've used the gay male identity as an insult. It can be hard to wrap one's head around, I know. Being gay is not an insult, anymore than being a woman is an insult. Or being black.

 

[PayDay]

Then it's agreed.

I'm not angry at you, honestly-- I'm just saying it as I see it.

It isn't about you at all, and the ways in which groups of people chose to name themselves, and to share their names or not-- that isn't about you either.

I agree. Also, I never thought you were angry, just excited

And yes, two straight guys who insult each other by calling each other "faggot" have insulted every gay man at the very same time. Why? Because they've used the gay male identity as an insult. It can be hard to wrap one's head around, I know. Being gay is not an insult, anymore than being a woman is an insult. Or being black.

Now this is where I disagree. To me this is the problem. Under those circumstances, I see one man insulting another, and nothing more. If I for instance, say:

"Lovecraft, you're a fag."

I'm not insulting anyone, except, maybe, maybe Lovecraft. If you hear it and get offended, so what? I wasn't talking to you.

See what I'm trying to say? sr71plt hit on it too by saying:
"You're being wedged between two rabid extremes here."
This could not be more true. If one side wants the right to say or do as they please, then someone else, on an opposing side, has the right to ignore it.

Personal point of view is culturally regulated. I have no problem with the PC Police, but I can be displeased with enforcement regulations.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, let's think about this; If you say;

"Lovecraft, you're a fag."

How does that insult Lovecraft?

 

[PayDay]

...?

Well, let's think about this; If you say; How does that insult Lovecraft?

Seriously?


.....?

Nevermind then.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Seriously?


.....?

Nevermind then.

well, yeah. Seriously. Is being gay the insult? Or is there something else that you mean, when you say "fag?" One of them cultural meaning things?

 

[PayDay]

Fine then.

well, yeah. Seriously. Is being gay an insult?

Is not being gay an insult? Are you telling me (not really me, this isn't about me personally, this is about someone choosing to be a jerk-off) that, because: "I am more right in my own mind as to who I am, therefore you have zero right to believe or say as you please." ?

Doesn't that go against the entire basis of civil liberty?
Isn't that hypocritical?

You are essentially crucifying me (not really me, 'cause, I don't care, and this isn't about me, or Lovecraft) for my personal point of view, because you believe in your point of view more; regardless of how ignorant, correct, stupid, moral, or wrong as my, or your, opinions may be.

If someone calls someone else a 'fag' under any circumstances, they have the right to do so. You in turn can have the right to verbally retaliate, or to be offended, but that doesn't mean they have to stop because you don't like it.

Maybe they don't like 'the fag' or 'the gay' or 'the homosexual' (that was a joke.).

Either way, no one is correct, and both are correct, because everything is based on a singular point of view instead of a whole account of the situation.

Basically, you are squashing someone else's belief for your personal belief above all else, with no regard for theirs or it's intent. I just think that is wrong to do, considering what you expect of others, and their beliefs and natural qualities.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Now this is where I disagree. To me this is the problem. Under those circumstances, I see one man insulting another, and nothing more. If I for instance, say:

"Lovecraft, you're a fag."

I'm not insulting anyone, except, maybe, maybe Lovecraft. If you hear it and get offended, so what? I wasn't talking to you.

See what I'm trying to say? sr71plt hit on it too by saying:
"You're being wedged between two rabid extremes here."
This could not be more true. If one side wants the right to say or do as they please, then someone else, on an opposing side, has the right to ignore it.

Personal point of view is culturally regulated. I have no problem with the PC Police, but I can be displeased with enforcement regulations.

Lovecraft, I have to disagree with you. Here's why and how: there are some words that become so politically charged, they take on a life of their own. The "n" word is precisely one of those words. The best example I can think of would be the recent news story about the name of the ranch Rick Perry used to visit and how media outlets dance around saying (or purposely NOT saying) the word. My favorite take was by Jon Stewart on The Daily Show who showed a clip of Herman Cain saying the "n" word every time Jon needed it said. Great satire and a great multi-layered commentary on our times (Safe: please notice how I avoided using that German "z" word for you).

Right, wrong, or otherwise, I believe the "n" word has been elevated to a unique status in our society as a whole. Regardless of how it's used, it's officially a "bad" word with very strict rules behind its use. A learned person should be expected not to make the mistake of mis-using it. There have been plenty of examples in recent years of people making the mistake of using the "n" word poorly and being reprimanded for it. Quite often their initial response was "But what I meant was...." ignoring the widely held, cultural understandings behind the word.

I do not mean to dissect political correctness. Hate speech is hate speech. Words have consequences. Wise people accept that not everyone perceives the world in the same way.

In general, I subscribe to the Carlin philosophy that words are just words and there's no such thing as a "bad" word. But he's combining dissimilar arguments for the sake of humor.

If it would be wrong for one person to refer to another with the "n" word, then using the "f" word as a substitute is apparently just as bad to our friends in the GBLT community. At least that's what I've learned from this odd conversation.


Now, with all that said, allow me to address this bullshit:

Oh spare me the "poor me" victimization, dude.

If you honestly didn't know "faggot" was a term that is VERY offensive to queer folk then you are so far back in the closet that you should see Narnia.

BTW, as long as you're back there, say "Hi" to SR71. He's usual back by the women's shoes stomping his foot and getting pissy.

I don't feel like a victim when someone with their head so far up their ass can't see past their own shit to recognize an opportunity to illuminate and educate without preaching or insulting the questioner. In the course of this thread, I've notice more than one person who shared my question about how inflammatory the word had become. I've seen a thoughtful and reflective conversation taking place without an interest in being sensational until you presented your holier-than-thou attitude that everyone should know better.

No ma'am, apparently all of us do NOT know better. I wasn't alive when the word "colored" became the wrong word for describing our friends of African-American descent, but I do remember cringing when my parents (children of the depression) would use the word "colored" without malice or awareness that it become a taboo word. And, for the record, I carefully corrected them.

I can think of lots of words that I believe describe the nature and tone of your posts, not a one that has a gender, race, or political slant to it: pompous, crass, pretentious, arrogant, bullying, inane...

But please, feel free to lump me in with whomever else you wish. That's your prerogative. Feel free to ridicule and belittle those you deem as being being disingenuous or unenlightened as you continue missing an opportunity to educate and inform about a matter that obviously means a great deal to you. I guarantee you cannot make me feel like a victim.

 

[sr71plt]

Isn't fringe freak "Shadow of Safe Bet" (You'd have to been around for a while to understand this) really charming? And doesn't she make such a helpful self-appointed spokesperson for gay males.

I think she probably purposely is trying to keep the gay community on the "hate the freaks" fringe--all by herself.

 

[PayDay]

Yup.

I do not mean to dissect political correctness. Hate speech is hate speech. Words have consequences. Wise people accept that not everyone perceives the world in the same way.

If it would be wrong for one person to refer to another with the "n" word, then using the "f" word as a substitute is apparently just as bad to our friends in the GBLT community. At least that's what I've learned from this odd conversation.

The bold letters are truth. The rest of it is solid logic.

 

[Safe_Bet]

feel free to lump me in with whomever else you wish. That's your prerogative. Feel free to ridicule and belittle those you deem as being being disingenuous or unenlightened as you continue missing an opportunity to educate and inform about a matter that obviously means a great deal to you. I guarantee you cannot make me feel like a victim.

Nice try Duckie, but I'm still not believing ANYONE doesn't know that calling somebody a faggot is defamatory. Like I said, if you don't know, you need to leave whatever cloistered monaestery you've been living in and get out more, dude. Seriously.

P.S. it's NOT my job or inclination to "take this opportunity to educate" you. 'Side, it appears you stopped listening long ago.

 

[Safe_Bet]

And doesn't she make such a helpful self-appointed spokesperson for gay males.

.

I suppose some alleged "bi guy" who's never left the closet would be better? At least I'm not ashamed of who and what I am.

I also never said I was talking for anyone besides myself. You see I don't make believe that I'm somebody I'm not (hint hint --->. Points finger at a certain wannabe supersonic jet piloting, super secret spying, international diplomatic, multi-millionaire married into the freakin DuPont family that hangs around a porn story board).

(and yes, SR... I AM calling you a lying, pissy little Prima Donna. )

 

[sr71plt]

Well, actually you are claiming to speak in the skin of someone you claim is dead, Safebet. If you were speaking for yourself, you'd get your own forum name. But you are either channeling someone identically hysterical freaky fringe who you've claimed is dead or you have played a very cruel joke on this forum.

If you're not the original, get your own sign-on name and stop hiding behind a dead woman.

It's true that you don't speak for the gay male community. You obviously hate all males and when you speak for the gay male community (which you certainly are doing here; faggot is a GM term) you equally obviously want to keep that segment of the gay community in the freaky fringe with you in the perspective of the nongay community. You singlehandedly manage this brilliantly.

No need to go further into it. You flame enough all by yourself for everyone posting to the forum.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

I suppose some alleged "bi guy" who's never left the closet would be better? At least I'm not ashamed of who and what I am.

I wasn't going to bite at anymore of this. But since I'm being called out...

alleged "bi guy"? And your proof of being a lesbian and mom is what?

who's never left the closet... Are you referring to the exact same "alleged" bi guy who openly admitted in a non-GBLT forum that he likes to suck dick that he's somehow not out? Would this be the same married bi-guy who openly shares his love of cock with his wife?

Safe, you're making about as much sense as some of the anonymous people who so famously post replies to stories in the Loving Wives section. I don't know you, your history on this site, or the validity of sr71plt's claims against you. I don't believe I need to, either. IMHO, you successfully marginalized yourself. Not a bad day's work!

 

[Safe_Bet]

I wasn't going to bite at anymore of this. But since I'm being called out...

alleged "bi guy"? And your proof of being a lesbian and mom is what?

who's never left the closet... Are you referring to the exact same "alleged" bi guy who openly admitted in a non-GBLT forum that he likes to suck dick that he's somehow not out? Would this be the same married bi-guy who openly shares his love of cock with his wife?

Safe, you're making about as much sense as some of the anonymous people who so famously post replies to stories in the Loving Wives section. I don't know you, your history on this site, or the validity of sr71plt's claims against you. I don't believe I need to, either. IMHO, you successfully marginalized yourself. Not a bad day's work!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Dude, you've got to stop thinking that everything is about you.

Did you see the post I quoted? Was it yours? (the answer to the last one is "no")

Get over your big, bad self,K?


As for what SR pissy pants says about me, I could care less. He's just making MORE shit up cuz he's a misogynistic asshat.

 

[sr71plt]

who's never left the closet... Are you referring to the exact same "alleged" bi guy who openly admitted in a non-GBLT forum that he likes to suck dick that he's somehow not out? Would this be the same married bi-guy who openly shares his love of cock with his wife?

No, she was speaking directly to me, who chooses to be bi but to remain integrated in the larger community without declaring or publicly exhibiting that I like men as well as women.

In her "I speak for all gays" she denies me the choice of how I wish to relate to society. She obviously feels the decision is hers--and that the society at large has to accept her (and, as you have already seen, whatever she chooses to believe about anything) no matter how freaky fringe she decides to be. (And I'm quite sure that if they did move toward accepting her, she would become yet more freaky just to keep them at bay and wallow in her martyr complex. She's basically completely rotted with hatred below the skin and intends to relate to the world that way no matter what).

And yet she hides here behind the name of a woman she claims is dead.

Well, I choose to be fully integrated in society and to enjoy a bi lifestyle as well. So, tough with her. I'm not the one who will live life consumed by hatred. I'm having a ball--and not hurting anyone that I know of, as the only other one of importance in this matter is my wife--who is one of the few who knows I'm bi--and is bi herself.

Let's see if we can bring some consistency to your life, Pseudosafebet. I'm sure that on the issue of abortion, you will say, "It's my body and my decision; keep your fucking nose and judgments to yourself." Well in terms of sexual preference choices and how an individual chooses to live them--for me and anyone else--it's my body and my decision; keep your freaky fringe nose and judgments to yourself.

You do not speak for gay males in any terms. Each gay or bi person has the right to relate to society as they see fit and within their individual situations without having you and your hatreds butt in. I object to and attack your hardcore freaky fringe political responses, not your sexual preference choices. In nearly every post you have addressed to me, you have belittled my sexual preference choices. Which one of us is the better representative of gay freedom?

And as far as calling someone a faggot, you (both as the current you and as the dead you) have called me that and worse in the past, so you're just two-faced in addition to all of your other bubbling over hatred of humankind.

 

[cummmthirsty]

Well Im bi at best,,, & I LUV a Dom Man to humliate me while Im suckin his cock .. I luv being called a cock-suckin Faggot... My QOS ex & her BBC b/fs luved laughin at me while I was suckin there Huge Cocks & callin me a Faggot ...I luv the taste & feel of a Big fat Cock passin over my lips & tongue on it way balls deep into my cummthirsty throat....Ohhh & how I luv my boi-pussy fucked then go straight to my mouth & throat....&&& The Truth Doesnt Hurt

 

[SydneyBlake]

Well, say what you want, I consider myself educated today, and appreciate the food for thought. I also hope that if I am ever on the left coast again, that Stella will meet me for lunch, because I always enjoy hearing your take on things. Bring the sock puppet.

 

[oggbashan]

My take: It is NOT the new "N" word. It has been offensive for a long time, except in very rare circumstances and in particular contexts. Brain's Faggots (my YouTube link in a previous post) are understood to be a completely different word, except when they got into trouble in a TV advert in the 1980s which ended with a double entendre.

It is almost as difficult to use as the word 'bastard' is in Australian. To them 'bastard' can be a term of abuse, of friendship, of awe, of disbelief... the list is almost endless and the meaning depends wholly on context and intonation.

My advice to me: Don't use either word unless you are absolutely sure that it won't be misinterpreted.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I wasn't going to bite at anymore of this. But since I'm being called out...

alleged "bi guy"? And your proof of being a lesbian and mom is what?

who's never left the closet... Are you referring to the exact same "alleged" bi guy who openly admitted in a non-GBLT forum that he likes to suck dick that he's somehow not out? Would this be the same married bi-guy who openly shares his love of cock with his wife?

Safe, you're making about as much sense as some of the anonymous people who so famously post replies to stories in the Loving Wives section. I don't know you, your history on this site, or the validity of sr71plt's claims against you. I don't believe I need to, either. IMHO, you successfully marginalized yourself. Not a bad day's work!

SAFE has a permanent disability, she's dead.

 

[lance gt]

As I can only speak from a hetero viewpoint, I really don't see how it matters what name a person is called, as it still recognizes them for their choice.

What I see as something to be offended by, is society at large and the mentality it has towards anyone other than straight. The term that I hear that I would find offensive, is when I hear people refer to hetero people as normal and those who aren't, are abnormal.

That stigma has kept everyone from accepting GBLT people as acceptable. Change the mentality and it matters not what name is put to your persuassion, you are accepted as a 'normal' person and the discrimination lessens.

Just food for thought.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

As I can only speak from a hetero viewpoint, I really don't see how it matters what name a person is called, as it still recognizes them for their choice.

What I see as something to be offended by, is society at large and the mentality it has towards anyone other than straight. The term that I hear that I would find offensive, is when I hear people refer to hetero people as normal and those who aren't, are abnormal.

That stigma has kept everyone from accepting GBLT people as acceptable. Change the mentality and it matters not what name is put to your persuassion, you are accepted as a 'normal' person and the discrimination lessens.

Just food for thought.

Its their uniform most of us object to. It always screams I'M QUEER AND I'M HERE!

 

[sr71plt]

Its their uniform most of us object to. It always screams I'M QUEER AND I'M HERE!

No, it doesn't "always" scream that. You've sucked into Safebet's message. All you see is the freak fringe.