The not so, ‘GOOD FIGHT’, between RIGHT and….WRONG!

amicus

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Perhaps you expected, ‘between Right and Left, perhaps not, but it is not just a political difference, subject to civility and correctness with an air of compromise, it is much more complex and difficult a venture.

The astute cannot but be aware of the wide disparity in thought at the highest political arena in America, if not the world, and, in microcosm, here on this forum.

I propose an attempt, not to bridge that abyss, but to define it, clarify it and suggest an acknowledgement of the polar differences and why they exist.

The political differences between right and left is far more than political, it is philosophical, metaphysical and perhaps even, in a generous definition of the word, ‘spiritual’, in nature; that is to say, in other words, that the differences go to the very core of our each, individual and collective existence.

If one can be both ‘civil’, and ‘absolute’, at the same time without incurring rancor, then that is my quest.

I would express two fundamental premises that define a basic approach to life; one, that human life is the fundamental tenet upon which all other rights emerge, and that the ‘right’ to that life is innate, axiomatic and self evident. In simple terms, we each have the right to our own individual life.

The second premise deals with the lives of all individuals and postulates that the use of ‘force’, threat, or intimidation, is not acceptable in any relationship of mature adults, and that the police power of the State is empowered to act to protect the individual from the use of force in a normative social setting.

To me, it is ‘RIGHT’ to acknowledge those basic principles, and WRONG, to violate them; regardless of the end result intended.

Thus, my definition of the political ‘right’ includes the above premises and as I view the ‘left’, they do not accept or acknowledge those fundamental and basic tenets.

The ‘Left’, seem to advocate the necessity of violating or sacrificing those basic values that I postulate as inviolable, to achieve a greater good for the betterment of society in general.

Thus, as I see it, we, and not just we few here, have arrived at a position that is insoluble by civil means, and that even polite discussion must, by definition, degenerate into verbal conflict.

I represent no one but myself in these discussions; I belong to no political party or organization, nor am I a ‘Randroid’, worshipping Objectivism, although it is the nearest formal set of premises to those I hold.

What I ask for, from the Left, is an open admission that your philosophy advocates the sacrifice of individual life, liberty and property, the means of achieving your ‘end’ of social justice and your views of a proper or ideal society that all should strive for.

I do not expect to get that admission, but your failure to state and justify your means to an end, will suffice.

In truth, I do not expect you to respond at all, for to do so would expose your amoral foundation and lack of respect for the basic values and virtues of human life.

For the next fourteen months, until the November election in 2012, the Right versus the Wrong, will occupy much of the debate and discussion here, there and everywhere and I implore those of you on the Right, to challenge those on the Wrong, to state and justify their basic principles as to why people should sacrifice their individual heritage to serve the greater good.

Your commentary, should there be any, will also provide opposing views for a novel in progress as I could never, in my own mind, justify the sacrifice of any individual for the greater good and I sincerely look forward to your justification of such actions.

Good luck!

Amicus Veritas:rose:
 
If one can be both ‘civil’, and ‘absolute’, at the same time without incurring rancor, then that is my quest.


Why are you cunts so ashamed and embarrassed about being female?

Naw, thas not good enough for the modern, liberated bitch, she wants all the benefits of being a cunt and she wants to run it all.


shortest.quest.ever.
 
I know...fucking hopeless.
It's like he wants to win a world title fight...in the Wits and Wisdom division, but using a rule book he has written and which makes no fucking sense to anyone but him.
 
I would express two fundamental premises that define a basic approach to life; one, that human life is the fundamental tenet upon which all other rights emerge, and that the ‘right’ to that life is innate, axiomatic and self evident. In simple terms, we each have the right to our own individual life.

The second premise deals with the lives of all individuals and postulates that the use of ‘force’, threat, or intimidation, is not acceptable in any relationship of mature adults, and that the police power of the State is empowered to act to protect the individual from the use of force in a normative social setting.

Thus, my definition of the political ‘right’ includes the above premises and as I view the ‘left’, they do not accept or acknowledge those fundamental and basic tenets.
And there begins the problem.

This is a definition of the left that the left does not recognise itself in. It's polarising and, intentionally or unintentionally, belittling and villifying.

It doesn't matter whether the left is correct or incorrect in not accepting your definition of their core values. They do not, and that is the fact, you'll have to deal with.

(I say "them" and not "we" because although on a left-right scale, I'm probably to the left of you, I'm definitely to the right of those who self idetify as left of centre.)

I'd suggest that the devil is in the details. For instance, that both the left and the right agree that it is the job of the police and the rule of law to protect against threats towards the rights of individuals. But that you have different views of what said threats are and what they are not.

A left winger might argue for instance that unions are a tool used to counteract and protect the individual employees from threats, force and intimidation from the powerful corporate collective, whereas a right winger sees the union AS the powerful collective that is threatening liberties of the individual.

Thing is, they're both right (as opposed to wrong).

Truth and reality is complex and intermediary, and climbing a hill and dying on it only works if your argument is done with bullets. In a civilised and peaceful society, that is, if you pardon my french, just fucking silly.

Maybe saying that will brand me forever as a "moral relativist without principles". Then so be it. :cool:
 
We've missed you, Ami.

The biggest flaw in your judgment here is that... well, individualism as you classify it is a mental disorder in the DSM 4.

"Species preservation over self-preservation".

It's the basic tenate of any society- regardless of which critter we're talking about, that keeps it going. Other people are just as important as you are, and the younger they are, the more important they are.

If you can't sacrifice the self for the group then... well, we don't really need you. It makes you a selfish prick.

So if something's bad for you, but good for the group. Then we do it anyway. That's just how the really real world rolls. *shrugs* This is the world, there is no other.
 
When you adopt the nobility of plunder and violate property rights, then it becomes an actual war of good verses evil, the generous verses the greedy, and the champion verses the thief.

Therefore, cartoonishly, there is no need for respect, it is a black and white argument, if you oppose my good intentions, then your intention must obviously be of malicious nature...

__________________
Contemporary leftists, on the other hand, view their opponents as people you send off to the Gulag, unworthy of any respect, deserving of any kind of low blow, no matter how foul. So you accuse Goldwater of insanity, slander Justice Thomas as a sexual monster, casually publish plays, books, and films calling for the assassination of President Bush, and assault the first serious Republican female candidate at her weakest point -- her family. And of course, you scream to high heaven if any form of turnabout occurs in your direction, as in the case of the Obama family, which was declared "off limits" early in the presidential campaign, at the same time that Palin's family was being stretched on the media rack.

This style of political loathing has become effectively innate. It has been systemized to such a degree as to become integral. Modern liberalism cannot do without it. An entire structure has been erected on the basis of political hatred, and from that structure a whole new strategy has arisen.

J.R. Dunn
 
The really ironic thing is that the same crowd that wants to walk the "Conservative" Templars out into the sands of Socialism do so with the insistence that every issue be viewed not as black and white but as the gray of nuance...
 
And there begins the problem.

This is a definition of the left that the left does not recognise itself in. It's polarising and, intentionally or unintentionally, belittling and villifying.

It doesn't matter whether the left is correct or incorrect in not accepting your definition of their core values. They do not, and that is the fact, you'll have to deal with.

(I say "them" and not "we" because although on a left-right scale, I'm probably to the left of you, I'm definitely to the right of those who self idetify as left of centre.)

I'd suggest that the devil is in the details. For instance, that both the left and the right agree that it is the job of the police and the rule of law to protect against threats towards the rights of individuals. But that you have different views of what said threats are and what they are not.

A left winger might argue for instance that unions are a tool used to counteract and protect the individual employees from threats, force and intimidation from the powerful corporate collective, whereas a right winger sees the union AS the powerful collective that is threatening liberties of the individual.

Thing is, they're both right (as opposed to wrong).

Truth and reality is complex and intermediary, and climbing a hill and dying on it only works if your argument is done with bullets. In a civilised and peaceful society, that is, if you pardon my french, just fucking silly.

Maybe saying that will brand me forever as a "moral relativist without principles". Then so be it. :cool:

~~~

Good morning, Liar, I wish you well...however...

If you set foot on my land, to steal an apple from my tree, I will shoot you dead. I will not talk to you, I will not negotiate with you, I will not compromise with you. If a gang of you come to steal from me and my neighbors, then WE will shoot you and not talk with you or compromise.

I do not say this to you personally, but I state this for others to understand just what Europe underwent during Nazi occupation during World War Two. I cannot imagine the disgrace and degradation your Nation and all European Nations suffered, except Spain and Portugal and Switzerland, Suisse. I can speculate that the total submission to a totalitarian regime destroyed the self esteem of Nations and Peoples and generations, that lasts to this day and limits their comprehension of how and what a truly 'free' people feel, deep in their very soul, as concerns submission to a totally overwhelming and superior force of arms and intimidation.

You are an intelligent man, Liar, and educated, and you know full well that modern Unions are a continuation of the Guild concept of old Europe where artisans limited employment to control wages and salaries. Unions are an abomination intended to control wages and prices to benefit a select few; you know that, I know that, and the general population of any country suffers from the control of the economy exercised by Unionized Labor.

In a free society, people have the right to organize; they do not have the right to control a company or an economy just to benefit Union members.

In Detroit, 'Motor City' a non Union welder makes $12.50 an hour doing the same work a Union employee does at $75.00 an hour. Both are equally qualified. It is my conclusion that the market should determine wages, not the Union.

I surmise that our basic disagreement is that you see the ideal society as being directed from the top down with an end goal in mind, and I see the ideal society composed of free men, from the bottom up, that determine the direction and the efficacy of society as a whole.

I have faith and trust in the common man to strive to realize what is in his best interest and you wish to dictate what his interests are.

We shall never agree, I know that, but at least, I have stated from whence I come.

Amicus:rose:
 
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See there you go,

You put up a fence just to keep me out, but to keep Mother Nature in,
If Gawd were here, he'd tell you to your face,
"Man, you're some kind of sinner..."



;) ;)
 
"Society has for its element man, who is a free agent; and since man is free, he may choose -- since he may choose, he may be mistaken -- since he may be mistaken, he may suffer....
I have faith in the wisdom of the laws of Providence, and for the same reason I have faith in liberty."

Frédéric Bastiat
 
We've missed you, Ami.

The biggest flaw in your judgment here is that... well, individualism as you classify it is a mental disorder in the DSM 4.

"Species preservation over self-preservation".

It's the basic tenate of any society- regardless of which critter we're talking about, that keeps it going. Other people are just as important as you are, and the younger they are, the more important they are.

If you can't sacrifice the self for the group then... well, we don't really need you. It makes you a selfish prick.

So if something's bad for you, but good for the group. Then we do it anyway. That's just how the really real world rolls. *shrugs* This is the world, there is no other.

~~~

I quoted your Post to exemplify just how obscene your thoughts and your philosophy and sense of life really are.

First off, any society without individual values fails, as did National Socialist Germany and Communist Russia.

Secondly, your DSM-4, just reclassified Pedophiles as a normative sexual expression where adults can have sexual relationships with children. You buying that?

It was in the news today, I can document it if you wish, but, get off your lazy ass and do it yourself.

Your, 'species preservation' is limited to non sentient life and you know that; fool the unwary, but I will and did, hang your ass out to dry in a Sahara Sun.

Amicus
 
I saw that on the FOX website, but we knew that that was coming, when there are no standards, any standard will do...

When sexuality, as I have pointed out many times in the past, is hard-wired (not a choice), then there can be no such thing as a deviant sexual behavior, just sexual behaviors and why is the government in the bedroom?

/:kbate:
 
Back before our Revolution all sides believed they were right and noble. But what really matters is destroying your opponent.
 
~~~

I quoted your Post to exemplify just how obscene your thoughts and your philosophy and sense of life really are.

First off, any society without individual values fails, as did National Socialist Germany and Communist Russia.

Secondly, your DSM-4, just reclassified Pedophiles as a normative sexual expression where adults can have sexual relationships with children. You buying that?

It was in the news today, I can document it if you wish, but, get off your lazy ass and do it yourself.

Your, 'species preservation' is limited to non sentient life and you know that; fool the unwary, but I will and did, hang your ass out to dry in a Sahara Sun.

Amicus


'Non-sentient' life ends at the plant spectrum. And-

You know what- most of the shit you say makes little to no sense. I want a strait-up answer. I'll still play along and everything, but I really want to know-

Are you fucking with us? With me?

Seriously- it would just make me feel better to know.
 
Hey, Slug, when these Buttfucking BabyKiller Pedophiles have no moral foundation and claim how morally superior they are for having no morals: other than a double tap to the forehead, how do we confront them?

???

ami
 
Hey, Slug, when these Buttfucking BabyKiller Pedophiles have no moral foundation and claim how morally superior they are for having no morals: other than a double tap to the forehead, how do we confront them?

???

ami

In times like this, all I can do is rely on the words of the wise, for I lack all the requisite tools to come to an answer (other than perhaps the realization that when society breaks down, and law no longer works for the free man, but rather, against him, the excessive use of the double-tap is the only way out of the morass)...

" ... there is only one remedy: time. People have to learn, through hard experience, the enormous disadvantage there is in plundering one another."
Frédéric Bastiat
 
'Non-sentient' life ends at the plant spectrum. And-

You know what- most of the shit you say makes little to no sense. I want a strait-up answer. I'll still play along and everything, but I really want to know-

Are you fucking with us? With me?

Seriously- it would just make me feel better to know.

~~~~\

Candicame...you are somewhat similar to the Catholic Bishop of Honolulu, Hawaii, who decided to take on my atheism, on air, live and uncensored. You lose. As he did.

Your faith in collectivism is formidable, but fatally flawed.

Although, when in my cups, I may be flamboyant, every word I speak is truth, and I will and do support every contention I offer.

So, no, I am not, 'fucking with you', or anyone. A is A. Reality is that which is. I will be kind and gentle if you wish to learn, but I will rip your guts out if you continue to express your faith and belief's and offer no rational thought.

Fair enough?

amicus
 
I do not say this to you personally, but I state this for others to understand just what Europe underwent during Nazi occupation during World War Two. I cannot imagine the disgrace and degradation your Nation and all European Nations suffered, except Spain and Portugal and Switzerland, Suisse. I can speculate that the total submission to a totalitarian regime destroyed the self esteem of Nations and Peoples and generations, that lasts to this day and limits their comprehension of how and what a truly 'free' people feel, deep in their very soul, as concerns submission to a totally overwhelming and superior force of arms and intimidation.
You can speculate all you want. (and it's to your credit that you're at least honest enough to call it speculation) But it doesn't make it so. In fact, the shadow of the Nazi regime and more recently that of Soviet and the iron curtain has nutured a steely resolve and tangible opposition against the threats of facism and totalitarianism.

I could, in my turn, speculate that you, since Americans (many immigrants of course excluded) have not for several hundreds of years experienced any such oppression first hand can only have a lofty, academic and naive idea of what freedom from it means.

You are an intelligent man, Liar, and educated, and you know full well that modern Unions are a continuation of the Guild concept of old Europe where artisans limited employment to control wages and salaries. Unions are an abomination intended to control wages and prices to benefit a select few; you know that, I know that, and the general population of any country suffers from the control of the economy exercised by Unionized Labor.
Too bad the thing you suggest I know "full and well" is historically inaccurate. Guilds were the analouge of today's trade associations. Cartels of small, pre-industrial busnisses in various trades, in a system of self regulation, market cooperation and branch preservation.
In a free society, people have the right to organize; they do not have the right to control a company or an economy just to benefit Union members.

In Detroit, 'Motor City' a non Union welder makes $12.50 an hour doing the same work a Union employee does at $75.00 an hour. Both are equally qualified. It is my conclusion that the market should determine wages, not the Union.
A bit of cognitive dissonance there, ol' bean. If people have the right to organize, why shouldn't they have the right to organize into unions, and collectively excert pressure on other organisations? Unions don't "control companies". They excert pressure and lend the strength of their numbers to the individuals that they represent.

Since there apparently ARE non union welders in 'Motor City', it can't be illegal to hire non union welders. So what power does the union have, other than that of organizing?
I surmise that our basic disagreement is that you see the ideal society as being directed from the top down with an end goal in mind, and I see the ideal society composed of free men, from the bottom up, that determine the direction and the efficacy of society as a whole.
And there is that fallacy of false dichotomy again. I can with confidence say that almost everyone here can agree that the ideal society is "composed of free men, from the bottom up, that determine the direction and the efficacy of society as a whole", but we don't all share your optimism in thinking that that will lead to unicorns and rainbows. History is full of examples of how three free men limit the freedom of the fourth. Or how individuals' freedom of choice is made a mockery of, when options to choose from are depleted.

If you are free to do what I tell you, or starve, you are still technically free.
 
"Unicorns and Rainbows..." smiles, life ain't a bowl of cherries, Liar, and never did I imply such.

After the Nazi's and the Communists, you have a resolve to....ahm, Democratic Socialism? Gimme a fucking break, Liar, you went tits up, and when the North Sea Oil runs dry, which it will, you be suckin' hind tit.

Our argument is not an utilitarian or pragmatic one, it is, and I insist it is, a metaphysical disagreement: you advocate bending with the wind, I advocate standing straight, live or die.

You know that, I know that; let us get past that and debate sense of life issues and not your petty and mundane book-keeper, accountant, cost/benefit ratio quandries...or is that where you are...your story and ur stickin' to it?

I have a wider vision.

Amicus
 
If you set foot on my land, to steal an apple from my tree, I will shoot you dead. I will not talk to you, I will not negotiate with you, I will not compromise with you. If a gang of you come to steal from me and my neighbors, then WE will shoot you and not talk with you or compromise.

First off, you don't own any property let alone an apple tree.

You do not have a gun to shoot anyone with on the property you do not own.

Your neighbors are most likely to turn their firearms on you.
 
I know...fucking hopeless.
It's like he wants to win a world title fight...in the Wits and Wisdom division, but using a rule book he has written and which makes no fucking sense to anyone but him.

Most hard-right wingnuts here reserve the right to define the terms of debate, and also reserve the right to unilaterally declare themselves the "winner" of any and all debates (see also: Frisco_Slug_Esq)
 
I represent no one but myself in these discussions; I belong to no political party or organization, nor am I a ‘Randroid’


This is obviously untrue, since every single thing you write is from the Koch brothers playbook.
 
~~~~\

Candicame...you are somewhat similar to the Catholic Bishop of Honolulu, Hawaii, who decided to take on my atheism, on air, live and uncensored. You lose. As he did.

Your faith in collectivism is formidable, but fatally flawed.

Although, when in my cups, I may be flamboyant, every word I speak is truth, and I will and do support every contention I offer.

So, no, I am not, 'fucking with you', or anyone. A is A. Reality is that which is. I will be kind and gentle if you wish to learn, but I will rip your guts out if you continue to express your faith and belief's and offer no rational thought.

Fair enough?

amicus

Nah, man, I was just seriously wondering. You're just so far off base so frequently, that several posters (I'm certainly not the only one) have begun to speculate that you might just be saying shit to mess with us. It's a valid assumption. Has nothing to do with atheism, it just seems that a lot of the time you say things that you know to be the opposite of reality to get a rise from folk.

I'm just trying to give you what you want. I can respond logically or I can respond passionately. I like people. :D

But seriously man, most of this is something a dottering old man would say. The kind of stuff that you shake your head and say, "Yes, yes, sir, why don't you lie down?" and go on with your day. And I don't like seeing people treated like that.
 
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