Gay-Friendly Media

[CandiCame]

So in another thread I was joking about how watching Pokemon as a child made me gay- and it got me to thinking...

All to often in the media, if a character is "gay" that's pretty much the main focus of the character. And I realized that one of the reasons that I really did like cartoons like Pokemon and Sailor Moon is because the gay characters on them aren't really "gay" steriotypes so much as they are people who happen to be gay.

For example, Prof. Samual (fast fingers Sammy) Oak from Pokemon. This man is living with a guy who is OBSESSED with him, and it's obviously a gay relationship, whatwith them being 2 guys and all.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKHkTRGdlH_tiDOOPHlhdOk4lDy7i42OCZrgWexdZcXKHk5pLPIQhttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j281/kitty_kat_kadaj/Pokemon/ep115_004.jpg

Now, in the Pokemon world, no one calls Oak on this, because he's possibly the most famous, brilliant scientist in the world. And by calls him on it, I mean in a negative way; yes people talk about it, but not in the "OMG, that's so gay!" way. The first thing that people think of when thinking of Sammy is the fact that his experiments with Mew DNA created a bunch of pretty awesome critters, not the fact that he's boning an 18-year-old guy well into his 70s. I really like this.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not of your generation, I had no idea!

And I got nothing, actually. J.K. Rowling has said that Dumbledore was gay, that she always knew he was. But she never said so in the books, and so-- who knew? No gay reader did, that's for sure.

This is why so many thousands of people write 'slash' fiction, where they add the missing gayness back into their entertainment.

 

[infinity706]

If you watch Sailor Moon, 2 of the main characters in one of the later seasons are lesbians. I don't think it was ever explicitly mentioned, though. It seems to be more common in Japanese shows.

 

[CandiCame]

If you watch Sailor Moon, 2 of the main characters in one of the later seasons are lesbians. I don't think it was ever explicitly mentioned, though. It seems to be more common in Japanese shows.

It's totally explicitly mentioned... several times.

http://members.tripod.com/~michi_chan/ld_5.jpg

Neptune and Uranus are a couple; they have been for 500+ years- the reason that you may think it isn't explicitly mentioned is because in the states, their relationship was edited, for some reason, to make them cousins. All the love scenes are NOT EDITED, so it just becomes really, really creepy. I'm really unsure why it was edited this way.

This picture is official art of what the editors would have American audience believe are cousins. 4 kids edited the hell out of James (from Pokemon) bisexuality to, and this is a guy who's as queer as a $2 bill. He's the fucking FLAMING MOLTRES.

I really don't understand American editors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIxNEqA-gKk Saddest scene ever.

In this same show, Bunny gets to date Darian, and it isn't edited at all, even though he's FUCKING an 8th grader while in college. There's even a scene that was totally left in the English where she calls her mom to tell her that she's staying at Ami's so her mom won't know that she's sleeping with Darian. THAT gets to stay in, but the lesbians- that's taboo.

WTF?

 

[infinity706]

Hey, maybe it's more ok if its lesbian incest?

 

[lustatopia]

So in another thread I was joking about how watching Pokemon as a child made me gay- and it got me to thinking...

All to often in the media, if a character is "gay" that's pretty much the main focus of the character. And I realized that one of the reasons that I really did like cartoons like Pokemon and Sailor Moon is because the gay characters on them aren't really "gay" steriotypes so much as they are people who happen to be gay.

For example, Prof. Samual (fast fingers Sammy) Oak from Pokemon. This man is living with a guy who is OBSESSED with him, and it's obviously a gay relationship, whatwith them being 2 guys and all.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKHkTRGdlH_tiDOOPHlhdOk4lDy7i42OCZrgWexdZcXKHk5pLPIQhttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j281/kitty_kat_kadaj/Pokemon/ep115_004.jpg


Now, in the Pokemon world, no one calls Oak on this, because he's possibly the most famous, brilliant scientist in the world. And by calls him on it, I mean in a negative way; yes people talk about it, but not in the "OMG, that's so gay!" way. The first thing that people think of when thinking of Sammy is the fact that his experiments with Mew DNA created a bunch of pretty awesome critters, not the fact that he's boning an 18-year-old guy well into his 70s. I really like this.

That's a very interesting observation, Candi.

I'm only passing familiar with anime stuff and missed Sailor Moon altogether, but I have travelled and lived in the far east, including Japan, so I suspect that there might be an element of cultural confusion about what amounts to gay behaviour in the far east. For instance, it not uncommon to see young women in Japan frolicking in the malls, holding hands, hugging, kissing, playing with each other's make up and walking arm in arm giggling together in what looks to western eyes as something much more intimate than just a friendship. But it's not gay at all.

Japan is also very a hierarchical society where you would expect a great scientist to have young awe-struck apprentices kowtow to his every wish Not gay. But you say it looks that way to American kids?

Likewise, in many Islamic countries from Egypt to Malaysia, young men often walk together holding hands or arm in arm, giggling and being silly in a way that looks very gay to Americans. But it certainly is no such thing.

Even in America 150 years ago the level of emotional intimacy displayed between close male friends would be considered pretty "gay" today. For instance, thousands of what amount to love poems written by Civil War soldiers to their best male comrade-in-arms friend (often killed in battle) sound really gay today, but were nothing of the sort.

What appears to have happened, especially in America, is that as our society began to first acknowledge that gays even existed and then slowly accept gay culture, the emotional range available for men to express love for each other atrophied to avoid the risk of signalling the wrong intention. In earlier days, since homosexuality was so unspeakably unnatural polite folk were often unable to even imagine gay sex, much less misinterpret intimacy for gayness.

Eventually, this was codified into "cool" and propagate in film and then TV by the likes of James Dean, John Wayne right up to Matt damon, et al.

 

[CandiCame]

That's a very interesting observation, Candi.

I'm only passing familiar with anime stuff and missed Sailor Moon altogether, but I have travelled and lived in the far east, including Japan, so I suspect that there might be an element of cultural confusion about what amounts to gay behaviour in the far east. For instance, it not uncommon to see young women in Japan frolicking in the malls, holding hands, hugging, kissing, playing with each other's make up and walking arm in arm giggling together in what looks to western eyes as something much more intimate than just a friendship. But it's not gay at all.

Japan is also very a hierarchical society where you would expect a great scientist to have young awe-struck apprentices kowtow to his every wish Not gay. But you say it looks that way to American kids?

Likewise, in many Islamic countries from Egypt to Malaysia, young men often walk together holding hands or arm in arm, giggling and being silly in a way that looks very gay to Americans. But it certainly is no such thing.

Even in America 150 years ago the level of emotional intimacy displayed between close male friends would be considered pretty "gay" today. For instance, thousands of what amount to love poems written by Civil War soldiers to their best male comrade-in-arms friend (often killed in battle) sound really gay today, but were nothing of the sort.

What appears to have happened, especially in America, is that as our society began to first acknowledge that gays even existed and then slowly accept gay culture, the emotional range available for men to express love for each other atrophied to avoid the risk of signalling the wrong intention. In earlier days, since homosexuality was so unspeakably unnatural polite folk were often unable to even imagine gay sex, much less misinterpret intimacy for gayness.

Eventually, this was codified into "cool" and propagate in film and then TV by the likes of James Dean, John Wayne right up to Matt damon, et al.

That may be so, but the relationship between Sammy and Tracy is also an "apprentice/mentor" relationship, but it's also really gay- even in Japan. Sammy's openly bisexual on the show, hitting on several male charcters- and in the comics is known to have affairs with his aids and graduate students, like Bill (who is also dressed up in a Clefairy suit when Ash catches them making out). He also hits on Ash's mom a lot- which is kinda weird because the men that he has relationships with (and Ivy) are all scientists. Delia, like her son, is a complete dumbass. Never really understood it.

And Uranus and Neptune are a couple, they live together, adopt a child, and it's a running joke that Uranus "doesn't like men." (Every time someone says this, Neptune says, 'Haruka doesn't like POPULAR men'). And they make out, talk about having sex, and are a couple. Uranus is insanely jealous.

Switching the rice balls to doughnuts or not including the kids day episode are cultural differences. Being in a relationship with someone of the same sex is pretty gay- no matter where you're from.

I have a couple of friends I've met at school from both Japan and Saudi Arabia, and if the middle east is more accepting of male closeness, you would never know it. I don't know how it is in other countries, because I don't know anyone from there, but in Saudi Arabia, anything that can be interpreted as gay is an offense that could land you the death penalty- including holding hands. There's some weird cultural thing about Muslim men having really huge sex drives or something- but when I saw that I asked my friend Abdullah and he told me that if two men were seen holding hands, arm in arm, or if you touch another man's shoulder (which is really common in the states) you could face arrest.

Japan is apparently really gay- my friend Akiko said that there's just not as much conservative sexual thought there. They also put eggs on their cheeseburgers. WFT? Like, fried eggs. You go to McDonalds and get a Big Mac, and they put fried eggs on it. I know that's not related, but I thought it was weird. Also, the age of consent is 12, which means that the thing with Bunny and Darian makes a little more sense. She also said that they were the only country with more male then female prostitutes- and she said it like she was proud of it! I'm going to go look up that prostitute thing, because as an American, that seems kinda odd.

I've heard about all the civil war letters and whatnot- I think that also has a lot to do with how poetic language used to be. We've kinda downgraded ourselves through the years, and cultural literacy ain't what it used to be. There are entire courses about the development of language and how certain things have completely changed in meaning, and how people tended to write more eloquently when they were writing as their only means of communication. I think it so odd that we've gone back to that, and it sounds retarded. If someone from the civil war were to read a text from a college kid, he'd smack us upside the head with the butt of his rifle. People just seemed to care more.

I am so jealous! I would love to get to live in Japan! How did you travel? Was it a student visa or were your working or something? I really want to take a semester abroad, but I'm scared because I don't speak Japanese! I'm a total Otaku- Kiki says that everyone there speaks passable English and American guys are considered hot and exotic- plus my idol, Shigeru Miyamoto lives there and I want to make a Mecca to see him and aggravate the hell out of him before I die. All Tracy to Prof Oak style. I wanna go so bad!!! What was it like? Did you get to see any Shinto temples/shrines? Did you get to see the Kyoto forest? (realizes he's rambling with a lot of unrelated stuff- decides to shut up and smile like a dumbass).

 

[lustatopia]

That may be so, but the relationship between Sammy and Tracy is also an "apprentice/mentor" relationship, but it's also really gay- even in Japan. Sammy's openly bisexual on the show, hitting on several male charcters- and in the comics is known to have affairs with his aids and graduate students, like Bill (who is also dressed up in a Clefairy suit when Ash catches them making out). He also hits on Ash's mom a lot- which is kinda weird because the men that he has relationships with (and Ivy) are all scientists. Delia, like her son, is a complete dumbass. Never really understood it.

And Uranus and Neptune are a couple, they live together, adopt a child, and it's a running joke that Uranus "doesn't like men." (Every time someone says this, Neptune says, 'Haruka doesn't like POPULAR men'). And they make out, talk about having sex, and are a couple. Uranus is insanely jealous.

Switching the rice balls to doughnuts or not including the kids day episode are cultural differences. Being in a relationship with someone of the same sex is pretty gay- no matter where you're from.

I have a couple of friends I've met at school from both Japan and Saudi Arabia, and if the middle east is more accepting of male closeness, you would never know it. I don't know how it is in other countries, because I don't know anyone from there, but in Saudi Arabia, anything that can be interpreted as gay is an offense that could land you the death penalty- including holding hands. There's some weird cultural thing about Muslim men having really huge sex drives or something- but when I saw that I asked my friend Abdullah and he told me that if two men were seen holding hands, arm in arm, or if you touch another man's shoulder (which is really common in the states) you could face arrest.

Japan is apparently really gay- my friend Akiko said that there's just not as much conservative sexual thought there. They also put eggs on their cheeseburgers. WFT? Like, fried eggs. You go to McDonalds and get a Big Mac, and they put fried eggs on it. I know that's not related, but I thought it was weird. Also, the age of consent is 12, which means that the thing with Bunny and Darian makes a little more sense. She also said that they were the only country with more male then female prostitutes- and she said it like she was proud of it! I'm going to go look up that prostitute thing, because as an American, that seems kinda odd.

I've heard about all the civil war letters and whatnot- I think that also has a lot to do with how poetic language used to be. We've kinda downgraded ourselves through the years, and cultural literacy ain't what it used to be. There are entire courses about the development of language and how certain things have completely changed in meaning, and how people tended to write more eloquently when they were writing as their only means of communication. I think it so odd that we've gone back to that, and it sounds retarded. If someone from the civil war were to read a text from a college kid, he'd smack us upside the head with the butt of his rifle. People just seemed to care more.

I am so jealous! I would love to get to live in Japan! How did you travel? Was it a student visa or were your working or something? I really want to take a semester abroad, but I'm scared because I don't speak Japanese! I'm a total Otaku- Kiki says that everyone there speaks passable English and American guys are considered hot and exotic- plus my idol, Shigeru Miyamoto lives there and I want to make a Mecca to see him and aggravate the hell out of him before I die. All Tracy to Prof Oak style. I wanna go so bad!!! What was it like? Did you get to see any Shinto temples/shrines? Did you get to see the Kyoto forest? (realizes he's rambling with a lot of unrelated stuff- decides to shut up and smile like a dumbass).

Candicame,

Well, yes that does sound decidedly gay. I stand corrected. I suppose anything is possible in the world of anime. Must get a Sailor Moon copy to watch soon. I first travelled to Japan as a boy with my family in the 1970's. Very few people spoke English then and it was a very exotic place, difficult to travel without assistance.

I most remember Japan in the 1970's for being so amazingly high tech for the day and highly ordered. No litter, everything organised perfectly right down to the last pebble. Very unAsian compared to the countries to the south like Hong Kong or the Philippines. Later I travelled there on my own business. I really doubt whether Japanese are more prone to gay sex than Americans, although they don't have the sense of Christian guilt we do, they have a system of family honour and strict protocol that probably inhibits sexual expression in a similar fashion. I never had a Japanese lover.

And yes, English language usage has changed much since the Civil War. The poetry back then was pretty much crap unless you were Walt Whitman or Emerson. People rail on about the decline of English, but I'm not so sure that's true. Most people back then couldn't write as well as most of us. I see it sort of like clothing. People dressed far more strictly back then in polite company then we do today. But they probably smelled a lot worse, since they didn't have hot showers every day. I'd rather be us. Plus everyone had a rotting tooth or two, which would have made for a lot of bad breath.

Thanks for filling me in about Sailor moon and Pokemon. Who knew?

 

[Etoile]

It's funny how permissive Japan is in media considering how repressive they are socially.

And yeah, Dumbledore never expressed any gay traits. In all those years, he seemed more asexual. Too busy with other stuff. If she wanted to make an impact, she could have written in a pensieve memory or some other clue.

 

[CandiCame]

Candicame,

Well, yes that does sound decidedly gay. I stand corrected. I suppose anything is possible in the world of anime. Must get a Sailor Moon copy to watch soon. I first travelled to Japan as a boy with my family in the 1970's. Very few people spoke English then and it was a very exotic place, difficult to travel without assistance.

I most remember Japan in the 1970's for being so amazingly high tech for the day and highly ordered. No litter, everything organised perfectly right down to the last pebble. Very unAsian compared to the countries to the south like Hong Kong or the Philippines. Later I travelled there on my own business. I really doubt whether Japanese are more prone to gay sex than Americans, although they don't have the sense of Christian guilt we do, they have a system of family honour and strict protocol that probably inhibits sexual expression in a similar fashion. I never had a Japanese lover.

And yes, English language usage has changed much since the Civil War. The poetry back then was pretty much crap unless you were Walt Whitman or Emerson. People rail on about the decline of English, but I'm not so sure that's true. Most people back then couldn't write as well as most of us. I see it sort of like clothing. People dressed far more strictly back then in polite company then we do today. But they probably smelled a lot worse, since they didn't have hot showers every day. I'd rather be us. Plus everyone had a rotting tooth or two, which would have made for a lot of bad breath.

Thanks for filling me in about Sailor moon and Pokemon. Who knew?

Yeah, the high tech thing is part of why I want to go- I'm going to school for game design, and everything good in the world of game design comes out of Japan- Kyoto is a mecca for folk like me! Plus, I LOVE animation, particularly studio Gibli- Howl Myhasaki (sp?) is the Walt Disney of Japan and another spokesmen for my generation, even though a lot of his stuff came out in the 80s, things like Howl's Moving Castle or Princess Mononoki were every bit as important to my artistic development as Akira DBZ Pokemon and Sailor Moon. Not to say that there aren't good American animation companies; there are, but in Japan manga artists are like rock stars; they live fast, hard, short lives. And the art world is far less corporate- I wanna go to Japan so bad!!

When was the last time that you got to go?

Oh, back on positive gay influences on children- I love Rick & Steve, but I'm not gonna vote for it. Not very kid friendly...

I'm realizing all of my positive gay influences come out of Japan, but Kawaru is pretty cool to. I watched Evangelion for the first time when I was 14- around the time that it was winning all those international awards the second time through, and I fell in love with it (Particularly with Asuka) so I read all the mangas, bought a million toys, ect, as was the style at the time. In the manga more then the show (because he's in all of 2 episodes) I actually really liked Kawaru, despite how homophobic I was at the time.

Kawaru is the American Eva piolet, and so I expected him to be really stereotypical, and in some ways he is, but it's always in a realistic, 'thats-what-an-American-would-do' kind of way. Like Asuka (the German super-soldier) was given classes in Japanese and spoke the language fairly well before being sent on her mission. Taberis was handed a phrasebook, while his dad told him, "So while you're there your name is Kawaru Nagisa, you're NOT a spy- Taberis, look at me- NOT a spy."

"Hi, Osoku,"

"What?"

"I think that means, OK dad. I might've just called you mom. I have no idea how to speak this language."

"Well good then, have fun bringing down that dick Ikari's organization! Call your mom and I! Eat!"

So he goes to Japan to try and bring down this evil organization- by the time he gets there, they've already broken his $million giant robot; and everyone expects him to understand Japanese. He has a really hard time and winds up speaking in broken sentences, at one point staring at a map trying to find his robot (unit 4) looking through the phrasebook going, "How do they write 4? How do they write 4? Oh, it's a fucking 4. Well where the hell's my robot?" So Mysato comes over and tries to teach him how to read maps, pissing him off. He also almost took a shower in the girl's locker room because he couldn't read the signs. http://img.youtube.com/vi/sNHYVZsHb4s/0.jpg

Anyway, back to the gay (as opposed to the super soldier). Kaworu meets a boy named Shinji (the Japanese piolet and main character of the show) they're both 14 and he really likes Shinji- says he's the first Lilian (human) to understand him. Shinji repeatedly spurs his advances, to the point of running out of his room screaming, "Boys don't love other boys!" after Kawaru says that he loves him and tries to kiss him.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmlldugKaP1qejji8.pnghttp://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12800000/Kaworu-and-Shinji-nagisa-kaworu-12860375-500-667.jpghttp://gargarstegosaurus.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/12222827532881.jpg

Eventually (spoiler alert) in the issue "Broken Heart" Shinji is forced to actually kill Kawaru in order to keep him from awakening an angel buried under the Nerve headquarters (thus starting 3rd impact or 4th, I can't remember- but killing a lot of people) . http://wiki.evageeks.org/images/c/cf/Start.jpghttp://iamgeeky.us/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/68a3138961dfbed470f9ab39eac55f38.jpghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRs3T-5V0JNxfu7GmQ9HbJIlp15a4epyaVF9Wrt53Ty4W1ukA3Gg

So Shinji, being the whiny bitch that he is, goes and cries about it on the beach where he and Kawaru met, saying, "He loved me! And I loved him to!" all "Why did I do that?" This is a reoccurring theme of Shinjis. He can never DO anything- don't wanna piolet a death mech for the dad that abandoned you? Then don't. Don't wanna kill your boyfriend? Then don't. Also, if you loved him, probably shouldn't have shouted homophobic things and run away. Shut the fuck up, Ikari.

Oh, and I heard about Dumbledore being gay from the Harry Potter books; I had never noticed or cared, it never really gets into his relationships in the series, I don't think. I still need to read the last one. I got desperate for money and sold it at half-price before I could read it.

Here's a pic of Neptune with the baby they adopt; http://www.rushita.com/michiru/mama.jpg

 

[Kurokami]

And yeah, Dumbledore never expressed any gay traits. In all those years, he seemed more asexual. Too busy with other stuff. If she wanted to make an impact, she could have written in a pensieve memory or some other clue.

I was talking to my wife about this some time ago, and she just turned to me and said: "If a gay tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, did it make a sound?" What I hope she meant is that, for all intents and purposes Dumbledore is asexual because sexuality isn't a part of his character. Saying he's gay after the fact means precisely nothing if there's absolutely nothing to hint at it in the books; that is, the channel audiences are supposed to experience the fiction through.

Candicame, as truly happy as I am to discover another Evangelion fan, it seems like the Eva you watched and the Eva I watched were vastly different things. Granted, Kowaru did have more of a gay streak in him in the manga (to the point of kissing Shinji) the idea behind him is that he's an Angel. He's not human, and doesn't understand concepts like human attraction. Like Dumbledore, he's asexual (although I'm sure there are fans that would disagree.) While I'm here, Kowaru never had an Eva built for him in the original series, and he certainly couldn't have been anywhere near Unit 04, which exploded into a Dirac sea some episodes before Kowaru makes his appearance. In the manga he pilots Unit 02 for a bit, and he has the Mark 06 Eva in Rebuild, but that's the extent of it. Also, Nagisa-san is Japanese, not American, and he speaks the language fluently. Sorry, I don't mean to be a stickler, but I love the fuck out of Evangelion

If we're looking for characters that just happen to be gay, and sticking with the anime theme, try Black Lagoon. There's a couple of references to the fact that Revy, one of the leads, is at least bisexual; she states it outright in one of the books. She also happens to be a complete badass with the greatest foul mouth ever.

And speaking of Sailor Moon, I'll have to ask my sister about this later (she's a mega-fan) but didn't they excise any mention of homosexuality from that show for the American release?

 

[CandiCame]

I was talking to my wife about this some time ago, and she just turned to me and said: "If a gay tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, did it make a sound?" What I hope she meant is that, for all intents and purposes Dumbledore is asexual because sexuality isn't a part of his character. Saying he's gay after the fact means precisely nothing if there's absolutely nothing to hint at it in the books; that is, the channel audiences are supposed to experience the fiction through.

Candicame, as truly happy as I am to discover another Evangelion fan, it seems like the Eva you watched and the Eva I watched were vastly different things. Granted, Kowaru did have more of a gay streak in him in the manga (to the point of kissing Shinji) the idea behind him is that he's an Angel. He's not human, and doesn't understand concepts like human attraction. Like Dumbledore, he's asexual (although I'm sure there are fans that would disagree.) While I'm here, Kowaru never had an Eva built for him in the original series, and he certainly couldn't have been anywhere near Unit 04, which exploded into a Dirac sea some episodes before Kowaru makes his appearance. In the manga he pilots Unit 02 for a bit, and he has the Mark 06 Eva in Rebuild, but that's the extent of it. Also, Nagisa-san is Japanese, not American, and he speaks the language fluently. Sorry, I don't mean to be a stickler, but I love the fuck out of Evangelion

If we're looking for characters that just happen to be gay, and sticking with the anime theme, try Black Lagoon. There's a couple of references to the fact that Revy, one of the leads, is at least bisexual; she states it outright in one of the books. She also happens to be a complete badass with the greatest foul mouth ever.

And speaking of Sailor Moon, I'll have to ask my sister about this later (she's a mega-fan) but didn't they excise any mention of homosexuality from that show for the American release?

For someone who loves the fuck out of Eva, did you even read the manga? Kawaru was raise in America, as a human, until he was 14. He was discovered as an embryo (the Angel Taberis), around the same time that Ikari discovered Adam. His father is the guy from America in the UN counsel, Kain, the one with the visor. He's the American face of the Eva project, and a super-star in the states. We strap kids to death mechs with nuclear engines on them, not extension chords. In the manga his dad calls him ALL THE TIME trying to get him to go down and initiate contact with Lilith. His whole purpose as an AMERICAN SPY was to initiate contact, thereby bringing about the end of humanity so his father could finally die. There's an entire religious background thing with his father being a representation of Kain from the Cain and Able story in the bible. He wears the visor to cover the mark that god placed on him.

Remember the scene in the comic where they were in cooking class and Shinji makes dim-sum, ASuka makes stroodle, and Kawaru makes apple pie? There are tons of even little jokes like that. The reason that Kawaru went up to Rei and said, "We're the same, you and I," is because he's the American equivilancy to Rei- he's got a tub full of clones to. That's also why they're both albino. His dad grabbed onto that angel DNA and was NOT going to lose it. And it wasn't that he didn't understand humans, he didn't like them- he had never met one he liked before Shinji. He had already lived among humans for 14 years. His dad is a major character in the comics- remember the numerous times that Shinji would bitch about his dad- hell, that one scene where Kawaru had the violin recital, Shinji was bitching about Gendo, Cain calls Kawaru and Shinji gets pissed that Kawaru's dad loves him and won't come to the recital? Plus... he had an AMERICAN flag on his shoulder... You know, the same placer where Asuka has a German one and Shinji has a Japanese one?

Unit 4 was Kawaru's- that's why it was sent from America shortly before Kawaru arrived. Instead of waiting for it's pilot, the Japanese stuck some random kid who happened to test well in it-who couldn't drive it because it was configured for Kawaru. As a result, the berzerker drive engaged and he wound up taking out half a town, and in the manga- he wasn't hospitilized, when Gendo took control of 01, he forced it to kill him. So Shinji had to sit there and watch HIS death mech kill one of HIS best friends. And he had daddy issues before. Anyway, because 01 broke the hell out of it, Kawaru couldn't pilot it. Didn't you notice the suits were color-coded? That's why Kawaru's was the same color as unit 04. I really thought that it went into it in the show, but maybe it didn't.

I have no idea where you got that Kawaru/Taberis speaks Japansese fluently. Even in the animie he has a hard time and choses his words very carefully and speaks like he's struggling. Granted, he doesn't pack the phrase book around, but he still speaks slowly and has to think about words, "You are... like glass... um... that is.... your heart... is."


This is all avalible not only in the manga but in the art books; and is supposed to be covered more heavily in the new movies. If you don't remember it from the manga, at lesat look up some of the many interviews Sadamoto did in reference to Kawaro being not only Shinji's love interest, but the artisic symbology behind him (Sadamoto) coming to terms with his sexuality. Asuka and Kawaru are basically two halves of the person he wants to meet in RL; Asuka has the dominance, passion, and overt power, while Kaworu has the refined intellect, artistic intergrity (violin anyone) and more covert power. Eva is so popular that art schools teach classes on the masterwork of symbology involving Judeo-Chrisitan, Shinto and Buddist spirital viewpoints, as well as sociological, and psychological applications of Evangelion. Sadamoto is a genius, and a tortured artist. Watching Eva is like reading "the wasteland", it makes little to no sense (especially the ending) if you don't take it as a whole (including Angelic Days) and if you don't know the symbology behind it.

You know, my friends and I have often joked about what a bad spy Kawaru is (hold on a minute, I've got to animie up my hair; what's your name- oh, it's Tab-- I mean Kawaru! That sounds Japanese, right? KAwaru-not-a-spy-Nagisa!) but I guess he's not as terrible as we all thougt he was, lol! In fact, it's a running joke whenever one of us lies really obviously, the other call him/her "Kawaru-not-a-spy-Nagisa". I mean, there are several scenes where he comes from America and gets to Japan- Shinji is charged with showing him around the school and teaching him the difference bewteen the American and Japanese school systems. He demanded a bed (unlike Asuka) under the premise that he was na American, and American's don't sleep on the fucking floor.

Sorry to keep going on about it, but Sadomoto is a huge influence on my art and I've studied him for years- Eva is amazing, but I mean, even as far back as he animation for Nausica you could tell that the man is a genius. His work deserves to be understood, to be appreciated as much as the fine art of the DWGs. You can't see it yet, I guess because I haven't made enough posts, but Kawaru is my avatar. Also, if you go to my writers profile, my main pic is of Kawaru. I've written peer-reviewed essays on Kawwaru Nagisa and what he represents. I know what country he's from. I could write for days on Sadamoto (dreamy eyes similar to Tracy's in the above pic)- beautiful, tortured artist...

Plus, you know he does absinthe, he's been in rehab for it (rehab is a huge deal in Japan, drugs are, for some reason, much more frowned upon there, there's a much larger social stigma) and I've never been that far. Maybe if I thought it would make me rich. Or I could do shrooms like Miyamoto. I'm such a pansy ass (sweatdrop).

As far as sailor moon goes, the censors tried. They made Uranus and Neptune cousins, but left all the love scenes in-tact, so what you got was a whole lot of incesty goodness that was far creepier then if they had just left them as cousins, espcially after they adopt sailor Saturn and begin raising her as their daughter. It got so bad that they eventually realized they had fucked up to bad to continue the series. With the introduction of the galactic scouts, they were like, "Fuck it, we aren't even going to translate anymore," so teh last series only exists in manga form or in Japanese. The manga's a lot better anyway- it doesn't drag on like a Tolkien novel.

You know, I've never gotten to sit down and watch all of Black Lagoon- I really want to! There are so many shows that I'm so far behind on! It looks really good!

 

[Kurokami]

Candicame, in instances like this my first reaction is to try and figure out what I have done wrong to cause a disagreement, so I'll go and re-read the manga; I just can't remember any reference to Kaworu being American in there, nor to being a spy, or a number of other things you've mentioned. Might just be my faulty memory, but when you say American spy, I start thinking of Kaji. I have my copies of the manga right here beside me, and I can't find any references to any of that. Can you help a brother out?

Have to say, I find the idea of SEELE 01, Kihl, being a representation of Cain to be pretty enchanting, though. I've never heard that theory before, but I like it.

Unit 04 was the silver one, that exploded in Nevada during an experiment with the S2 engine. The black one you're thinking of was Unit 03, which went berserk because it became infected with the 13th Angel, Bardiel, in transit to Japan. Never saw any reference to Kaworu being the selected pilot- especially since Toji was named the Fourth Child specifically for that purpose- but again, that might be my memory. Mind you, there have been a couple of things where Kaworu has been the pilot of Unit 04, assuming it didn't explode. But those are just little bonus things, not canon at all.

I agree with you that Kaworu is a love interest for Shinji, I just wonder if he himself understands what that means; in the manga, he has no sense of personal space or privacy, and his attempts to talk to Shinji really are very awkward. He's an Angel, so although he might really care for Shinji, I don't think he has a concept of sexual or romantic love, hence his rather blase attitude towards homosexuality, even when it was clearly making Shinji himself uncomfortable. That, and the whole part at the end where he has Shinji kill him. That's a very, very cruel thing to do (though I know he had his reasons)

Sadamoto is a genius, that much is true. Personally, I'm completely in love with his design work on Summer Wars, which is some really brilliant stuff, but Eva's always going to be the thing I go back to. Actually, I'm finding it pretty cool to be talking about it again, especially with someone who clearly respects it as much as you do.

Oh, and Black Lagoon is fucking amazing.

 

[Etoile]

Damn, this thread should've been called Gay-Friendly Japanese Media or Gay-Friendly Manga or something.

 

[Kurokami]

Damn, this thread should've been called Gay-Friendly Japanese Media or Gay-Friendly Manga or something.

I certainly would have jumped in here sooner if it was called that Although it'd be a pretty wide ranging subject, then, since most anime and manga is at least gay neutral, if not outright gay friendly.

 

[CandiCame]

To the other Sadamoto fan-

Apart from the 3 different Evangelion Mangas written by Sadamoto, I would suggest watching the new movies, in which Kawaru is more heavily involved and actually calls Kain "father" on screen numerous times. There are also a number of Eva video games that are pretty good running the gamet from the PS1, PC, DS, ect. A favorite Evangelion book of mine is Der Mor, which contains interviews with Sadamoto and a lot of his original artwork, not just from Eva, but from other works as well, including some of his stuff from Studio Gibli when he was really young.

Like I said, Eva is so deep that there are entire classes devoted to Sadamoto's work; and it's certainly something to look into. The fact that you didn't know about Kain is pretty shocking, but I'm also in art school, so my friends and I tend to pick up on symbology really quickly. I didn't mean to be so Ikari-escly whiney in my above posts, it's just that you said you, "Loved the fuck out of Eva", but what I thought you meant about that, I think is vastly different from what you actually meant. I got carried away and want to apologize. It is completely possible to love something without analyzing it or researching the hell out of it. I have ADHD, so it's hard for me to remember, sometimes, that other people don't do that.

It is good to meet another fan- here at my university there's a club called, "Bluegrass Otaku" that meets regularly to discuss varying forms of Japanese art, and I think that I'm so deep into the scene my nerdyness, and all out crush on Sadamoto led me to be bitch. Anyway, we're heading to NY for ComiCon, and he's supposed to be there promoting the new movies, so I might actually get to meet him (schoolboy squeel!!!)

But anyway, if you are a really big Eva fan, I suggest you google, "Neon Genisis Evangelion; Spiritual Symbolism". If you didn't know about Kain and Kawaru, then there's probably a lot of other things that you might not have known about that are really interesting. Eva is one of the most complex pieces of art since the Garden of Earthly Delights and certainly deserves to be seen as such. But I would read up on the symbology, then read/watch it again- the sheer amount of well, arty-artness is enough to drive a man sane- which it did. For Sadamoto, Eva was a healing process- it helped him regain whatever it is that he calls sanity.

I'm so obsessed with Kawaru that my first year in college I published a piece on him in a peer reviewed artistic student journal American Awakenings on the symbolism behind Kawaru and what he said about the Japanese attitude toward Americans in the dawn of the new Millenia. It seemed really odd to me that there were people who did not know his nationality because Sadamoto uses him to represent the western philosophy on life, much the way he uses Asuka. And dispite the vast difference in his perspective (which comes from being western, not from being an Angel; there are symbolic references to that, but Kawaru has lived among humans for 14 years, and never among angels, he wasn't regressed to a fetus, he was a fetus- he was the angelic form of a human and considered himself better then human; until he met Shinji) he comes off, not as most Americans in manga, as complete idiots or dicks, but has a different kind of intellect, an overt intellect- that cannot be quelled. This is one of the reasons that he makes a very bad spy for his father.

This is already a really long post, and there's nothing really that gay about it... So I'm not sure how well it fits in here, but I could talk for ages about Sadamoto's epic works. Hehe, sorry if I geeked out to much on you.

http://www.nervarchives.com/images/icon.200x150.syncratio.jpg

OMG, who's so awesome!?

http://cyrem.org/freewill/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/kaworu.jpg

Kaworu's awesome!​

 

[Kurokami]

Okay, Candi, I'm going to say this, before I go on: You're an interesting person, and I've enjoyed this back and forth. It's a lot of fun to talk about Eva with someone else, and hearing about your views on the series has been pretty cool. In fact, your Kaworu article? If I could find that, I'd read it with great interest, because I'd never considered him in terms of nationality and that's kind of goddamn awesome.

But listen: I've done the research. I know the symbolism. Much of my highschool and university careers have been spent writing essays about the symbolism of Eva. I own every extant issue of the manga (though I wish Sadamoto would hurry up and write an ending for that thing) the tv series, both of the old movies and the two currently made new ones. I have a little Kaworu figurine sitting on my computer monitor right now. When I say I love Eva, I mean that I love it the same way that you do.

I've tried skirting around this, because I don't want to seem rude (and still don't) but a lot of the things you say don't make sense. I'm not talking about Kaworu (who has his own huge religious symbolism that could be discussed endlessly) because I'm perfectly willing to take your word that he's american. That's not something I knew, so I thank you for teaching me.

But there is no character in Evangelion called Kain. The character you seem to be thinking of, the one with the visor, is a man named Lorenz Kihl, the head of the SEELE council. I like the idea that he could represent the biblical Cain, that's cool. I've also heard him compared to the Wandering Jew, who fell afoul of Christ and was forced to walk the earth forever, until the Second Coming. In that case, it makes sense for him to want to engineer his own.

As for Kaworu being in the new movies, I wish he had more involvement, but he got more screentime in End of Eva than he has for the two movies released so far. I can only hope the third has more of the Angel of Free Will in it. I'm not going to argue over whether he calls Kihl father in Rebuild, because I can't remember one way or the other, but I know for a fact that he calls Gendo father in the second movie. Whether he means his own father, or merely that Gendo is Shinji's father... Well, that's for future movies to decide.

Eva is a very complex work, I agree. The great thing about it is all the different interpretations that the audience can come up with, which can vary hugely. That's why I don't want to say that you're wrong, because you're not. You've just had a different (quite interesting) experience with the series. I also hope I haven't come across as rude at all, in this post or any of my others. That's absolutely not my intent, I'm just trying to be direct. You've been very sane and articulate, Candi, and I wish no offense. Thanks for giving me something to think about, here, it's been fun.

 

[CandiCame]

Okay, Candi, I'm going to say this, before I go on: You're an interesting person, and I've enjoyed this back and forth. It's a lot of fun to talk about Eva with someone else, and hearing about your views on the series has been pretty cool. In fact, your Kaworu article? If I could find that, I'd read it with great interest, because I'd never considered him in terms of nationality and that's kind of goddamn awesome.

But listen: I've done the research. I know the symbolism. Much of my highschool and university careers have been spent writing essays about the symbolism of Eva. I own every extant issue of the manga (though I wish Sadamoto would hurry up and write an ending for that thing) the tv series, both of the old movies and the two currently made new ones. I have a little Kaworu figurine sitting on my computer monitor right now. When I say I love Eva, I mean that I love it the same way that you do.

I've tried skirting around this, because I don't want to seem rude (and still don't) but a lot of the things you say don't make sense. I'm not talking about Kaworu (who has his own huge religious symbolism that could be discussed endlessly) because I'm perfectly willing to take your word that he's american. That's not something I knew, so I thank you for teaching me.

But there is no character in Evangelion called Kain. The character you seem to be thinking of, the one with the visor, is a man named Lorenz Kihl, the head of the SEELE council. I like the idea that he could represent the biblical Cain, that's cool. I've also heard him compared to the Wandering Jew, who fell afoul of Christ and was forced to walk the earth forever, until the Second Coming. In that case, it makes sense for him to want to engineer his own.

As for Kaworu being in the new movies, I wish he had more involvement, but he got more screentime in End of Eva than he has for the two movies released so far. I can only hope the third has more of the Angel of Free Will in it. I'm not going to argue over whether he calls Kihl father in Rebuild, because I can't remember one way or the other, but I know for a fact that he calls Gendo father in the second movie. Whether he means his own father, or merely that Gendo is Shinji's father... Well, that's for future movies to decide.

Eva is a very complex work, I agree. The great thing about it is all the different interpretations that the audience can come up with, which can vary hugely. That's why I don't want to say that you're wrong, because you're not. You've just had a different (quite interesting) experience with the series. I also hope I haven't come across as rude at all, in this post or any of my others. That's absolutely not my intent, I'm just trying to be direct. You've been very sane and articulate, Candi, and I wish no offense. Thanks for giving me something to think about, here, it's been fun.

Yay for togetherness!

But yeah, I think that the bullet point to take away from this is that Sadamoto is awesome.

I also know what Kihl's real name is, but I call him "Kain" in much the same way I call Kawaru "Kawaru" instead of "Taberis" (actually I usually call him "Kawaru-not-a-spy-Nagisa" which I think is another in-joke). It's probably more in-joke then I meant it to be- it's another thing I got used to doing just because my friends and I do it all the time.

At comicon, he's supposed to revel new work on both Eva AND Angelic Days! I can't wait! But I don't think there's ever going to be an "ending" persay- for one, he's making a fucking fortune, and for another, it's basically his work to keep his version of sanity.

Anyhoo, if this post makes even less sense then my others (which make little sense anyway) I'm sorry- I'm pretty drunk and ai just got back from an awesome party. I've had to erase like, a million little typos. It is always fun to add more people to my group of folk to geek out with!

Still don't know if I like Asuka or Kawaru better- either way it's getting kind of creepy now that I've hit 20- guess my Eva-hentai drawing days are over.



Oh, for another gay character- what about Sora? Did Sora have teh homo-gay? I can't remember right now, but I seem to remember beating that game and thinking, "So... that was gay."

 

[Spacefender]

Yeah, I remember when JK Rowling announced that Dumbledore was gay. I was pretty skeptical of the whole thing. It smacked of an after-the-fact cheap attempt at political correctness. Later I read an explanation from her about when she was writing certain scenes she had this history in her head of Dumbledore being in love with this guy and how that effected his actions. It made more sense to me then. Although, I still think it wasn't necessary.

 

[Kurokami]

Yay for togetherness!

But yeah, I think that the bullet point to take away from this is that Sadamoto is awesome.

Agreed. But let us also not forget the creator of the franchise, Anno, for giving Sadamoto such a cool story to work with. You can definitely tell that guy got a lot healthier, mentally, between the original series and Rebuild. He also once voiced a kitten in FLCL (which Sadamoto also designed!), so that's just awesome.

I also know what Kihl's real name is, but I call him "Kain" in much the same way I call Kawaru "Kawaru" instead of "Taberis"

Ah. Gotcha.

At comicon, he's supposed to revel new work on both Eva AND Angelic Days! I can't wait! But I don't think there's ever going to be an "ending" persay- for one, he's making a fucking fortune, and for another, it's basically his work to keep his version of sanity.

Oh my god, really?! Awesome! I know there'll probably never be an ending for Eva (not even End of Eva, ironically), I just mean that it's taken a really, really long time for it to finish; there's only twelve volumes and the thing's been going for more than half of my life! I just want to consume it, and the wait is unbearable.

Still don't know if I like Asuka or Kawaru better- either way it's getting kind of creepy now that I've hit 20- guess my Eva-hentai drawing days are over.

Oh, for another gay character- what about Sora? Did Sora have teh homo-gay? I can't remember right now, but I seem to remember beating that game and thinking, "So... that was gay."

Personally, Kaworu's my favorite; Asuka's just a little too... intense, for me. Though I did like all her badass fight scenes in End of Eva. And you don't necessarily have to stop Eva-hentai-ing, but it is weird to think of how sexualized those characters are, even in the official artwork: they're supposed to be fourteen!

Sora's only gay in that the fandom likes to portray him that way, which is failry common there anyway. There's a lot of flowery touches to his character that might make you think about him that way, though.

Since I feel like I need to contribute something here, try Nadie and Ellis, the lead pair in El Cazador de la Bruja. The show is only pretty good, but the heroines are definitely, definitely a lesbian pair. The ending makes that abundantly clear

 

[CandiCame]

Agreed. But let us also not forget the creator of the franchise, Anno, for giving Sadamoto such a cool story to work with. You can definitely tell that guy got a lot healthier, mentally, between the original series and Rebuild. He also once voiced a kitten in FLCL (which Sadamoto also designed!), so that's just awesome.



Ah. Gotcha.



Oh my god, really?! Awesome! I know there'll probably never be an ending for Eva (not even End of Eva, ironically), I just mean that it's taken a really, really long time for it to finish; there's only twelve volumes and the thing's been going for more than half of my life! I just want to consume it, and the wait is unbearable.



Personally, Kaworu's my favorite; Asuka's just a little too... intense, for me. Though I did like all her badass fight scenes in End of Eva. And you don't necessarily have to stop Eva-hentai-ing, but it is weird to think of how sexualized those characters are, even in the official artwork: they're supposed to be fourteen!

Sora's only gay in that the fandom likes to portray him that way, which is failry common there anyway. There's a lot of flowery touches to his character that might make you think about him that way, though.

Since I feel like I need to contribute something here, try Nadie and Ellis, the lead pair in El Cazador de la Bruja. The show is only pretty good, but the heroines are definitely, definitely a lesbian pair. The ending makes that abundantly clear

I like Asuka, but I like intense women.

Sora, I remember that better now that I'm a little more sober, I finished the second one, and I was like, "Huh... so am I gay?" It's really ambiguous. He seems to have a major hard-on for what's-his-fuck, the Sepheroph-looking dude; but the fact that he kept that fruit for like, three years or whatever is way more creepy then it is romantic.

I've got a couple more American folk to add to the list, like the Question and the Asuguardian (I mean, Wiccan, because Asguardian was to gay) but I am waaay to tired to do that right now.

I was really sexual when I was 14- it's that "beginning of puberty" kind of sexuality.

 

[CandiCame]

Alright, I've gone way to Japanese in my previous posts, so here are some American gay heros just to even things out-

First off, Wiccan.
http://i.imgur.com/ZPWbn.jpg This is the second gayest picture of Billy on the first page of Google pics. The second gayest, because the first gayest, as I'll show in a minute, is him about to take some serious man-on-scrull action in the Avenger's hideout. Because that's how he rolls.

Anyhoo, Billy's kind of like a cross between Thor and the Scarlet Witch, and like Thor, gets his powers from Asguard. He's like a teenage version of Thor, who doesn't look like a steroid freak. He's in the young avengers; he has similar powers to his "mom" the Scarlet Witch, and his brother has had a few to many yellowjackets. Bill's got a LOAD of god-granted superpowers, like teleportation, telepathy, flight, the ability to locate people, lightning hands, pretty much any trick you can think of, Billy's got it.

http://i.imgur.com/IpCd0.jpg
Including taking shape-shifting sKrull cock. I just don't know that I'd be able to trust a skrull in bed...

Having said that, I have a GIANT man-crush on the Hulkling, because he's so out there; he's got the brute strength and the stealth- and he's just a cool guy. Dude watched his mom get killed, found out Mar-Vell was his dad, and DIDN'T have the world's worst breakdown. Yeah, so you find out your an alien with superpowers because aliens are stalking you, then your mom turns INTO said alien and tries to save you, only to get killed? And you walk away- dude is a wall. And then, the dad you meet isn't even really your dad- he's just some fucked-up Skrull with a psychosis- WTF? WTF Marvel writers? Was it just decided, "Hey lets make this awesome guy and then just shit all over him? Eh, fuck it, give him a hot boyfriend, he'll be alright."

As if finding all this shit out isn't enough; it's a bad time to be a skrull (or half skrull or whatever) so half the fucking team wants him dead- you know what, read Young Avengers, it's a good book.

http://i.imgur.com/p6fO9.jpg
Billy finding out that Teddy Likes him

http://i.imgur.com/lkN4T.jpg
Billy's brother bitching him out for making out instead of, you know, using his superpowers (one of which is teleportation) to, you know, escape or something. (In their defense, they're teenagers)

http://i.imgur.com/hxEnG.jpg
Making out in the Avengers HQ

http://i.imgur.com/lCUa1.jpg
I wanna date Teddy...

*deleted this one because I didn't want to go through the trouble of editing it- it was Hulkling kissing a villan on the cheek to piss him off and then demonstrating his immunity/healing powers*
This one has nothing to do with anything, I just thought it was pretty cool.


​

 

[Etoile]

candicame, please upload these pictures to another host to comply with the pic posting guidelines. Imgur.com lets you just put in the URLs for the images and it'll upload them automatically, you don't have to save them on your computer first (this is called transloading). Also, URLs on images are not allowed, so please replace your last one.

 

[CandiCame]

candicame, please upload these pictures to another host to comply with the pic posting guidelines. Imgur.com lets you just put in the URLs for the images and it'll upload them automatically, you don't have to save them on your computer first (this is called transloading). Also, URLs on images are not allowed, so please replace your last one.

Aw... now they won't show up

I copied the image thing for messege boards from imgur.com

 

[Etoile]

Aw... now they won't show up

I copied the image thing for messege boards from imgur.com

Not sure what's wrong, the code looks okay, I'll have to take a closer look later - can't tell much from my phone (I'm at work, no Lit allowed!).