Why we should embrace the end of human spaceflight?

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Obama has given American Space Exploration to the unstoppable forces of the Free Market. That's bad?

If there's a profit to be made in space - the market is better at finding it than government. Isn't it?

If space weapons become necessary - shouldn't the free market build them and sell them to the government rather than having the government stifle creativity in the field by taking charge?

Why aren't you out there trying to raise capital for a space launch company to replace the shuttles? There must be a market for satellite delivery systems?

Because it is the JOB one of the few actually constitutionally-mandated charges of the Federal Government to defend us.

In the days of Pharaoh, he who controlled the land ruled.
By Grecian times, command of the sea was necessary to prevail.
With World War II, came the ability to dominate the air.
In the future, wars will be won by control of space.

There is room for the free market (as discussed in Perg's Government jobs thread) for private development too, but our government must have men in space to make decisions for our defense and maintain a deterrent.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I come to the General Board whenever I feel worried that there just might be too much truth and common sense in this world.

Frisco; you are about to join ami and JBJ in being elevated to the Moron Club.

The United States signed the Outer Space Treaty, the basis of international space law, back in 1967. Among its precepts are...

1) Outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;

2) States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;

Obama was six years old when the US agreed to the terms of this treaty, so the lack of weaponizing space is all his fault...yup, yup, yup...



While Russia still has a means of getting to and from the ISS, it hardly means they own space and they don't even bother to say so. They (the USSR) signed the treaty on the same day as the US.

Do you really think that if a twenty megaton thermonuclear bomb goes off in your neighborhood that it makes a serious difference if it arrived there by an ICBM as opposed to a space based platform?

Do you think that dialing back the threat of nuclear Armageddon is a bad idea?

What is a treaty?

Hitler had one with Stalin.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

If Hitler hadn't broken it first, Stalin would have.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I'm trying to figure out how a genius like Hawking got so dumb all of a sudden?

There seems to be a propensity for experts in one area to suddenly start saying crazy shit in other areas. I've never understood it.

It's what can happen when really bright people speak out on a subject that's far from their area of expertise. Hawking is arguably the most brilliant mathematical physicist since Isaac Newton. Cambridge is not known to place dummies as Lucasian Chair of Mathematics. (Newton himself was the second Lucasian Professor.) That doesn't make him an expert on possible extra-terrestrial psychology.

That said, I really don't think that Hawking was all that dumb with his comments about the possible bad outcome for us humans if we were ever to be visited by extra-terrestrials (commenting that things didn't work out so well for the original North Americans when the Europeans showed up).

Hawking certainly was right, from the native American point of view. I think he was simply commenting on the idea that there is no reason to believe that a civilization capable of interstellar space travel is necessarily going to have benign intent.

Think of it this way. If we ever develop the capability of interstellar space travel, I pity the poor habitable planets that we might come across.

REALLY?

Welcome to the League of Bright Men...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

If Hitler hadn't broken it first, Stalin would have.

If China wants a weapon in space, China's going to weaponize space...

They are already developing the lasers to knock out our communications satellites.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

If China wants a weapon in space, China's going to weaponize space...

They are already developing the lasers to knock out our communications satellites.

If they had more navy, maybe they could get here, kinda like Hitler and England.

 

[rosco rathbone]

but our government must have men in space to make decisions for our defense and maintain a deterrent.

I don't think there's much military role for manned space stations. Too vulnerable.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I don't think there's much military role for manned space stations. Too vulnerable.

Yeah, I get it. We've learned everything we possibly can from having a man in space, so let's retreat and pat ourselves on the back for having been all the smarter, we'll form a League of very smart gentlemen...

There's simply no reason to put men into space when that money can be going to robots and cleverness.

I get it.

Not one of you addressed the challenges, frontiers and greatness argument.

Best explore space with your Xbox.

That's really going to fire up the youth over "exploring" space.

And I am sorry that I am such a MORON; one wonders why perg would climb a mountain if it's smarter to send a robot; or why the good doctor would need to train on a cadaver since a video is available, or why the lawyer would even bother to show up for court when he could simply phone it in on his client's "smart" phone...



Let's all live in BUBBLES!



Let's let the robot do all the welding, gotta be smarter than some of the welders I know...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

If they had more navy, maybe they could get here, kinda like Hitler and England.

Why?

We're downsizing ours...

Soon three junks will be able to take Hawaii.

We'll threaten to nuke them and they'll take out our satellites, EMP us and ask,

"Did you say something?"

 

[Wat_Tyler]

Why?

We're downsizing ours...

Soon three junks will be able to take Hawaii.

We'll threaten to nuke them and they'll take out our satellites, EMP us and ask,

"Did you say something?"

Maybe, after we're dead. If we get busy chasing Comancheros, that day may come sooner rather than later.


Off to chase a dollar - hope it's not Gray Rider currency.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Yeah, I get it. We've learned everything we possibly can from having a man in space, so let's retreat and pat ourselves on the back for having been all the smarter, we'll form a League of very smart gentlemen...

There's simply no reason to put men into space when that money can be going to robots and cleverness.

I get it.

Not one of you addressed the challenges, frontiers and greatness argument.

Best explore space with your Xbox.

That's really going to fire up the youth over "exploring" space.

And I am sorry that I am such a MORON; one wonders why perg would climb a mountain if it's smarter to send a robot; or why the good doctor would need to train on a cadaver since a video is available, or why the lawyer would even bother to show up for court when he could simply phone it in on his client's "smart" phone...



Let's all live in BUBBLES!



Let's let the robot do all the welding, gotta be smarter than some of the welders I know...

ahaha cool your jets there, space cadet!!

I'm all for men in space, getting the youth excited, the final frontier and all that shit. Problem is, they are redundant.

They're working hard at making my trade here on earth redundant too, but it'll be a little while yet.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Tiny bubbles (tiny bubbles)
In the wine (in the wine)
Make me happy (make me happy)
Make me feel fine (make me feel fine)

Tiny bubbles (tiny bubbles)
Make me warm all over
So here's to the golden moon
And here's to the silver sea

And here's to a nation great
That at one time used to be...


__________________
Don't shoot me! Ahm just the passion play's Player Piano player.
A_J, the Stupid

 

[kbate]

Because it is the JOB one of the few actually constitutionally-mandated charges of the Federal Government to defend us.

In the days of Pharaoh, he who controlled the land ruled.
By Grecian times, command of the sea was necessary to prevail.
With World War II, came the ability to dominate the air.
In the future, wars will be won by control of space.

There is room for the free market (as discussed in Perg's Government jobs thread) for private development too, but our government must have men in space to make decisions for our defense and maintain a deterrent.

So by the same argument, the Federal Government should stop buying planes from lockheed, guns from Colt and get back to making the weapons on its own dollar with federal employees? By the same logic, our government must have men on Oil Platforms to ensure adequate supply of this strategic substance. A government man should be at every electric plant, every road junction and on every merchant ship.

Government men in space have proven to be a cost - with limited benefit. We do not need to deter from a threat that is only perceived. The threat now - is terrestrial based intercontinental missiles - the same threat we have faced since 1950. You can shoot down every one of our satellites and you still need to bring boots to the ground over here to conquer the United States.

I am all for science and exploration - but the idea that we must be the most powerful military force in space - is ridiculous. And it is more ridiculous that Government and especially the military must be the force driving development of the systems to get there.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Tiny bubbles (tiny bubbles)
In the wine (in the wine)
Make me happy (make me happy)
Make me feel fine (make me feel fine)

Tiny bubbles (tiny bubbles)
Make me warm all over
So here's to the golden moon
And here's to the silver sea

And here's to a nation great
That at one time used to be...


__________________
Don't shoot me! Ahm just the passion play's Player Piano player.
A_J, the Stupid

Square jawed space cadets aren't going to be any use when you have CCP kinetic kill vehicles coming at you at orbital velocity from all directions in the middle of a decoy swarm and your sensor array was just fried by a pumped xray laser. Orders, captain? Too late, you're space junk.

It's amusing to scratch a hard nosed small govt libertarian and find the romantic kid all gaga over the mercury program or whatever was the going concern when you were in short pants. Endearing really.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

So by the same argument, the Federal Government should stop buying planes from lockheed, guns from Colt and get back to making the weapons on its own dollar with federal employees? By the same logic, our government must have men on Oil Platforms to ensure adequate supply of this strategic substance. A government man should be at every electric plant, every road junction and on every merchant ship.

Government men in space have proven to be a cost - with limited benefit. We do not need to deter from a threat that is only perceived. The threat now - is terrestrial based intercontinental missiles - the same threat we have faced since 1950. You can shoot down every one of our satellites and you still need to bring boots to the ground over here to conquer the United States.

I am all for science and exploration - but the idea that we must be the most powerful military force in space - is ridiculous. And it is more ridiculous that Government and especially the military must be the force driving development of the systems to get there.

What twisted logic are you trying to deploy? The logic that says, why should the government have a military at all? Hire mercenaries...

The Russians can always put a man in space for us, they are known dummies.

Our computers can now beat their grandmasters...

Yeah, what am I thinking?

We're dismantling our military because we have to pay for health care.

Space? The Final Frontier? Faggidaboutit...

We're "smarter" than that!

*R2D2 nod*

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Square jawed space cadets aren't going to be any use when you have CCP kinetic kill vehicles coming at you at orbital velocity from all directions in the middle of a decoy swarm and your sensor array was just fried by a pumped xray laser. Orders, captain? Too late, you're space junk.

It's amusing to scratch a hard nosed small govt libertarian and find the romantic kid all gaga over the mercury program or whatever was the going concern when you were in short pants. Endearing really.

Funny thing is...




It was the Russians that initially got our man into space...

You don't find that an tragically ironically sad state, that we are back to Russia putting our men into space?



Man, am I ever excited about pouring over the data sent back from Mars probes...

*nods*

This is why I'll never be in the League of Smart Men. I like to get my hands dirty...

 

[rosco rathbone]

Funny thing is...




It was the Russians that initially got our man into space...

You don't find that an tragically ironically sad state, that we are back to Russia putting our men into space?



Man, am I ever excited about pouring over the data sent back from Mars probes...

*nods*

This is why I'll never be in the League of Smart Men. I like to get my hands dirty...

I agree, on an emotional level.

Bearded nerds blinking at JPL monitors got nothin on Swigert jury rigging the the LEM life support system or Armstrong landing with the gas gauge on "E".

Unfortunately, the nerds won. Kids today won't even play outside.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I agree, on an emotional level.

Bearded nerds blinking at JPL monitors got nothin on Swigert jury rigging the the LEM life support system or Armstrong landing with the gas gauge on "E".

Unfortunately, the nerds won. Kids today won't even play outside.

Mine doesn't play, she works...



Of course, she wants the return of horse and buggy days so that we have to buy her a horse.

 

[kbate]

What twisted logic are you trying to deploy? The logic that says, why should the government have a military at all? Hire mercenaries...

The Russians can always put a man in space for us, they are known dummies.

Our computers can now beat their grandmasters...

Yeah, what am I thinking?

We're dismantling our military because we have to pay for health care.

Space? The Final Frontier? Faggidaboutit...

We're "smarter" than that!

*R2D2 nod*

What twisted logic you employ? You mean, that because we are not developing space weapons to rival Buck Rogers - that the Russians suddenly can afford to, AND have discovered what 30 years of our "star wars" development failed to discover and can put it all together before we can refurbish the space shuttle and add a 30mm rotary cannon to it?

Or should we be afraid of the French, Chinese or Mauritanians instead of Russians?

Or perhaps because you like Star Trek - you think Star Trek should be possible? You do use the terms of the movies in your argument enough. *spit*

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

You know what it all says to me?

A tacit admission that we are a nation in decline and that greatness is now up to "someone else..."



We have social engineering projects now to occupy ourselves with.

We cannot afford big things, big dreams and big challenges, we're spent and dying...

 

[Saint Peter]

Square jawed space cadets aren't going to be any use when you have CCP kinetic kill vehicles coming at you at orbital velocity from all directions in the middle of a decoy swarm and your sensor array was just fried by a pumped xray laser. Orders, captain? Too late, you're space junk.

It's amusing to scratch a hard nosed small govt libertarian and find the romantic kid all gaga over the mercury program or whatever was the going concern when you were in short pants. Endearing really.

We are working on that.

 

[rosco rathbone]

You know what it all says to me?

A tacit admission that we are a nation in decline and that greatness is now up to "someone else..."



We have social engineering projects now to occupy ourselves with.

We cannot afford big things, big dreams and big challenges, we're spent and dying...

I think your issue at bottom is not with decline vs greatness or social engineering vs big challenges.

It's about human vs machine, or more precisely about pencil pushing, volvo driving tech elites (Obama's top contributors: Google and big science universities) vs righteous God fearing ex-military spacemen.

That tension was always inherent (I'm sure you've read "The Right Stuff") in the space program, and I say again, the nerds won.

 

[Saint Peter]

Space warfare, not AJ's short pants.

 

[Saint Peter]

And leave my Volvo out of this.

 

[rosco rathbone]

And leave my Volvo out of this.

Typical nerd. Isolating single atoms on the taxpayer dime.