Help with opening a closed mind

[SlaveAtHeart]

As from the signature line you can see, I'm in a deeply committed relationship. I love him. He loves me.

I love pain. Period. I have yet to be pushed to my limits in past relationships and there's not much left on my list that's not checked off... A pain slave at heart.

He does not understand how pain can be pleasurable. He 'says' torture is torture and cannot be pleasurable.

I've tried talking. I've tried explaining. I've directly said that if you do this, than I will do this. I'm now at a loss as I've been trying these things for years now.

Meanwhile, while he says those things, there are time, though few and far between, that a very dominant side of him slips out. Even though I've encouraged those times, they remain few and far between. The ability and desire is there. I've seen and felt it.

The mind is not. How does one go about changing anothers point of view on something that they are so stubborn about?

Please don't get me wrong. I am not trying to change him. I do not believe in changing peoples nature.

I've seen this in him. He has actively participated. Problem being he's always been a tad into his cups when this side of him has come out. When he is sober, he refuses to even acknowledge that is occurred. Considering how careful and gentle of a lover he is, there is no fear (or chance or hope) of things getting out of control.

I was once as stubborn about my denial to my inner desires, but overcame them myself when I realized that I needed to in order to be happiest. How does one 'help' another in this way? I have tools and toys that I've purchased or made myself (my favorite toy store is Home Depot). He's poked through my box of goodies but has yet to try all but 2 of the 'typical' toys.

I'm just so at a loss. There are so very many things I enjoy, that even though I am a slave deep down within the depths of my soul, the issue of not being his slave is not as big of a problem. As long as some of the things I enjoy are taken care of that is...

Thank you for your thoughts and ideas.

 

[IrisAlthea]

As from the signature line you can see, I'm in a deeply committed relationship. I love him. He loves me.

I love pain. Period. I have yet to be pushed to my limits in past relationships and there's not much left on my list that's not checked off... A pain slave at heart.

He does not understand how pain can be pleasurable. He 'says' torture is torture and cannot be pleasurable.

I've tried talking. I've tried explaining. I've directly said that if you do this, than I will do this. I'm now at a loss as I've been trying these things for years now.

Meanwhile, while he says those things, there are time, though few and far between, that a very dominant side of him slips out. Even though I've encouraged those times, they remain few and far between. The ability and desire is there. I've seen and felt it.

The mind is not. How does one go about changing anothers point of view on something that they are so stubborn about?

Please don't get me wrong. I am not trying to change him. I do not believe in changing peoples nature.

I've seen this in him. He has actively participated. Problem being he's always been a tad into his cups when this side of him has come out. When he is sober, he refuses to even acknowledge that is occurred. Considering how careful and gentle of a lover he is, there is no fear (or chance or hope) of things getting out of control.

I was once as stubborn about my denial to my inner desires, but overcame them myself when I realized that I needed to in order to be happiest. How does one 'help' another in this way? I have tools and toys that I've purchased or made myself (my favorite toy store is Home Depot). He's poked through my box of goodies but has yet to try all but 2 of the 'typical' toys.

I'm just so at a loss. There are so very many things I enjoy, that even though I am a slave deep down within the depths of my soul, the issue of not being his slave is not as big of a problem. As long as some of the things I enjoy are taken care of that is...

Thank you for your thoughts and ideas.

The bolded parts are a bit confusing to me because dominant doesn't have to include sadistic.
Anyhow, I think that if you have already been very open and clear about what it is you want and crave and he still doesn't want to participate, you might have to accept that he has made his mind up.

 

[CutieMouse]

But OP you are trying to change him.

Just because *you* realized you were happier after embracing your desire for rough/masochistic sex, doesn't mean he will do the same re: dominant/sadistic sex. By pushing, arguing, explaining, pleading and nagging, IMO you could be exacerbating the problem. Instead of giving him a "safe space" to explore that aspect of his sexuality, you're creating this performance vacuum - if he does anything outside the norm, suddenly he's under the microscope of "OMG he's finally into the rough stuff!"

If you knew you enjoyed all this extreme sex stuff, why did you get involved with someone who has zero interest in it? Either accept where he is at re: rough sex and respect his sexuality as much as you're wanting him to respect your own, or move on.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

As from the signature line you can see, I'm in a deeply committed relationship. I love him. He loves me.

I love pain. Period. I have yet to be pushed to my limits in past relationships and there's not much left on my list that's not checked off... A pain slave at heart.

He does not understand how pain can be pleasurable. He 'says' torture is torture and cannot be pleasurable.

I've tried talking. I've tried explaining. I've directly said that if you do this, than I will do this. I'm now at a loss as I've been trying these things for years now.

Meanwhile, while he says those things, there are time, though few and far between, that a very dominant side of him slips out. Even though I've encouraged those times, they remain few and far between. The ability and desire is there. I've seen and felt it.

The mind is not. How does one go about changing anothers point of view on something that they are so stubborn about?

Please don't get me wrong. I am not trying to change him. I do not believe in changing peoples nature.

I've seen this in him. He has actively participated. Problem being he's always been a tad into his cups when this side of him has come out. When he is sober, he refuses to even acknowledge that is occurred. Considering how careful and gentle of a lover he is, there is no fear (or chance or hope) of things getting out of control.

I was once as stubborn about my denial to my inner desires, but overcame them myself when I realized that I needed to in order to be happiest. How does one 'help' another in this way? I have tools and toys that I've purchased or made myself (my favorite toy store is Home Depot). He's poked through my box of goodies but has yet to try all but 2 of the 'typical' toys.

I'm just so at a loss. There are so very many things I enjoy, that even though I am a slave deep down within the depths of my soul, the issue of not being his slave is not as big of a problem. As long as some of the things I enjoy are taken care of that is...

Thank you for your thoughts and ideas.

I'm struggling to compute the whole 'even though I'm a slave at heart, I can deal with not being his slave so long as some of my kinks are met' bit here.

I would have thought that the desire to engage in a relationship that took care of the aspects of your core personality would be more of a need than your kinks.

If you truly are a slave at heart, go with that. Submit your desires to his will, and be happy with your lot. If that isn't going to be enough for you, if you need the kink more, then you need to leave him and find it.

 

[SlaveAtHeart]

The bolded parts are a bit confusing to me because dominant doesn't have to include sadistic.
Anyhow, I think that if you have already been very open and clear about what it is you want and crave and he still doesn't want to participate, you might have to accept that he has made his mind up.

I'm not necessarily referring to being sadistic. My apologies if it came across that way. I meant dominant, or in control.

It's hard for me to accept that considering he is clearly like that deep down, just refused to do so when sober because it is "not the right thing to do".

 

[SlaveAtHeart]

But OP you are trying to change him.

Just because *you* realized you were happier after embracing your desire for rough/masochistic sex, doesn't mean he will do the same re: dominant/sadistic sex. By pushing, arguing, explaining, pleading and nagging, IMO you could be exacerbating the problem. Instead of giving him a "safe space" to explore that aspect of his sexuality, you're creating this performance vacuum - if he does anything outside the norm, suddenly he's under the microscope of "OMG he's finally into the rough stuff!"

If you knew you enjoyed all this extreme sex stuff, why did you get involved with someone who has zero interest in it? Either accept where he is at re: rough sex and respect his sexuality as much as you're wanting him to respect your own, or move on.

I honestly don't believe I'm trying to change him. I'm trying to open his mind to do the same things he does when he is not sober. Sober, he is extremely chivalrous. He does not believe those things are "right" and even though I've explained my feelings on the subject, he just does not understand how or why I feel that way.

IF he was never dominant, than we would not have made it to this point in our relationship. When he is loosened up with a few drinks, he's ideals / morals / whatever go out the window and he does not worry about what society dictates to be "normal". He is himself and that is a dominant personality.

As far as pushing, nagging, pleading or arguing, I have not done those things in regards to our sex life. Or anything else for that matter. Then again, I do not argue at all if it can be helped. I despise it, same with nagging or pushing. Pleading I'll do, but have not done in regards to this.

We are both very open and he has expressed desire and wanting to try much of the tamer stuff. He just never gets around to it. When the time comes, there is talk of it "not being right" and the subject gets dropped.

 

[CutieMouse]

I'm not necessarily referring to being sadistic. My apologies if it came across that way. I meant dominant, or in control.

It's hard for me to accept that considering he is clearly like that deep down, just refused to do so when sober because it is "not the right thing to do".

And my argument would be that if you are as submissive/slave to your core as you say you are, then his overt "dominance" has zero, zilch, nada to do with the issue you're having here. I would also put forth that in your OP you were going on about sexual dominance - which, again, has very little (IMO) to do with submission.

You want kinky sex; he doesn't. Even if he does occasionally break down those barriers and gets a bit wicked between the sheets when drunk, you do realize that when the man says "it is "not the right thing to do" he's expressing CENTURIES of male social conditioning? *If* he is going to change his mind, he will do it when HE feels comfortable doing so, not because you've bothered him to.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You are trying to change him, and more so, in the hope you get what you want, not what he is comfortable with. It is not about opening his mind. He could just as easily claim your mind was closed as you strongly believe what you do. I would think you have some important decisions to make regarding the future of your relationship, and what you need in your future to keep you happy and satisfied. Trying to make him into the person you feel you need is not the answer.

Catalina

 

[SlaveAtHeart]

I'm struggling to compute the whole 'even though I'm a slave at heart, I can deal with not being his slave so long as some of my kinks are met' bit here.

I would have thought that the desire to engage in a relationship that took care of the aspects of your core personality would be more of a need than your kinks.

If you truly are a slave at heart, go with that. Submit your desires to his will, and be happy with your lot. If that isn't going to be enough for you, if you need the kink more, then you need to leave him and find it.

I have come to grips with the fact that there are not many out there who enjoy or can deal with the level and frequency of things that I do and still carry out a "normal" everyday life in public. I have children, a family and a business life in which my desires/needs can not spill over into. Unfortunately, in my past, the only people I met that enjoy the level of things I do want, no demand, complete and total surrender in everyday life to the point of me not having much contact with my kids or family and not having a job outside of them. That is NOT an option for me. My kids are my kids and they are not going to mostly go away because someone else wants them to...

I'm sure there is a Master out there, but I have yet to find anyone close to what would be 'ideal' for my wants as well as needs. Considering this, I've come to grips with the fact that I am probably not going to be able to have my cake and eat it too. So, a long time ago I realized how to cope and enjoy what the person I'm with has to offer. And in my copings I've found happiness. As well as mutual love and respect.

The slave in me receives satisfaction through carrying out day to day chores and tasks without having to be asked or told. Things like doing all the cleaning, making the meals, and helping him within anything he needs. A smile on his face, a happy word from his lips or a positive gesture in my direction from something I've done is enough to make my heart soar.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm struggling to compute the whole 'even though I'm a slave at heart, I can deal with not being his slave so long as some of my kinks are met' bit here.

I would have thought that the desire to engage in a relationship that took care of the aspects of your core personality would be more of a need than your kinks.

Sometimes, for some, the need for kink and/or pain can run on equal par with straight out deep submission and service. It doesn't make someone any less a submissive or slave, but it does become diffuclt for some because many feel a need to draw a line between both and demand a preference which is then used to define. The desire for one does not necessarily exclude the validity of need for the other. And then, you get some who see submission and service as kink. It is not always as simple as it seems.

Catalina

 

[SlaveAtHeart]

If someone does something, at will without prodding/begging/or even talk about it, during times when they lack inhibitions and are not worried about what John Q Public has to say about it, and continue to participate in such things at those times and greatly enjoy it, I do not feel that another person who is trying to make that person see that John Q Public does not have a thing to do in that situation, is trying to change the person himself.

Change his sober opinion of certain things being "right" versus "wrong" as far as norms are concerned, yes I am. But, these are things that have been enjoyed by him when he is not thinking or worried about what others think.

So, I merely look at it as trying to open his mind, as it is when he lacks inhibitions. I feel as though I am trying to help him find himself - yes himself, not what I want - because of things he did before I even opened up to him in regards to my wants/desires.

If you see someone thoroughly enjoying themselves, time and time again, doing a specific thing when they thought it did not matter to anyone, would you tell them that it does not matter what any one else thinks and try to get them to enjoy themselves completely more frequently?

I have come to realize that society as a whole, is not as open and understanding as it claims to be. And, there are not many out there who are strong enough to throw caution to the wind, even with the person they love in the privacy of their own home, unfortunately, and admit to the things they enjoy and desire. Why not? Why should people be afraid of their desires? How do those of us who have accepted our own, help those who have not accepted their own do so?

 

[SlaveAtHeart]

Sometimes, for some, the need for kink and/or pain can run on equal par with straight out deep submission and service. It doesn't make someone any less a submissive or slave, but it does become diffuclt for some because many feel a need to draw a line between both and demand a preference which is then used to define. The desire for one does not necessarily exclude the validity of need for the other. And then, you get some who see submission and service as kink. It is not always as simple as it seems.

Catalina

No, simple it is not. That is why I do not like defining words. It is too easy to loose a person in the definition. Buy saying I am this or that merely describes a small part of that person. Some get caught up in that aspect and completely forget the rest.

There are many more 'types' of Masters/Doms/Tops/slaves/subs/bottoms out there than we have words for. Each with their own set of desires, wants, needs, hopes and fantasies.

I am lucky to be able to say that in my past I have had 3 partners who have tested and pushed my limits (pain, kink and sub) at a healthy rate (without finding the end line) and at the same time allowed me to be the person I am outside of that through various outlets. Unfortunately I outgrew 2 of them and the 3rd, well, other than saying I was deeply committed, completely dependent (emotionally, physically and financially), collared, planning a formal collaring ceremony complete with branding as well as a large, legal marriage, and was one day just left with no one, nothing, and no warning, is all I will say about that.

Currently, the desire as well as the need is still there, but it has other outlets. In the past, out of necessity due to distance, I was taught a great deal of how to give myself the sensations I crave. Without that knowledge, I would be lost and would have probably gotten into some dangerous situations trying to fulfill those cravings by now.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have come to realize that society as a whole, is not as open and understanding as it claims to be. And, there are not many out there who are strong enough to throw caution to the wind, even with the person they love in the privacy of their own home, unfortunately, and admit to the things they enjoy and desire. Why not?

For a variety of reasons. One of the most prevalent being their desires go against their learned behaviour/upbringing, another is it can come back to bite them when they least need it. It also requires trust, lots of it, and that is not always easy to find.

Why should people be afraid of their desires?

It's new, outside what they are used to...can get them into trouble; requires their revealing their innermost thoughts and feelings....basically it is risky in many ways. Most people are not comfortable with change, this takes a lot to accomplish. It also can relate to work and career risks. The reasons are endless.

How do those of us who have accepted our own, help those who have not accepted their own do so?

Not sure it is our place to do so, but a good start is in leading by example and also generating the trust required. You can flood them with empirical knowledge, anecdotal knowledge, but sometimes this can backfire and set them more in their ways as opposed to opening up more. Whether it is our place or not though, if you do set out to get someone to accept their kinkier self, you might also have a level of responsibility for where that might lead that person and/or impact on their life. I have reached an age where I do not have time, energy, or desire for changing others, but YMMV.

Catalina

 

[SlaveAtHeart]

For a variety of reasons. One of the most prevalent being their desires go against their learned behaviour/upbringing, another is it can come back to bite them when they least need it. It also requires trust, lots of it, and that is not always easy to find.

It's new, outside what they are used to...can get them into trouble; requires their revealing their innermost thoughts and feelings....basically it is risky in many ways. Most people are not comfortable with change, this takes a lot to accomplish. It also can relate to work and career risks. The reasons are endless.

Not sure it is our place to do so, but a good start is in leading by example and also generating the trust required. You can flood them with empirical knowledge, anecdotal knowledge, but sometimes this can backfire and set them more in their ways as opposed to opening up more. Whether it is our place or not though, if you do set out to get someone to accept their kinkier self, you might also have a level of responsibility for where that might lead that person and/or impact on their life. I have reached an age where I do not have time, energy, or desire for changing others, but YMMV.

Catalina

Thank you Catalina.

I guess that is the ultimate question. How to get someone to trust another enough to open up. I can think of nothing else beyond what I have already tried.

Age is but a number. Time, that is what has me concerned. I do not enjoy it's passing if there is not something pleasant to remember about it, so I deliberately forget things. I have forgotten so many unwanted negative memories now as it is. I did not wish, nor have the desire to take the time to change someone. But I fell in love with the person I seen and experienced. Unfortunately that person is not as in tune with himself as I believed.

I really hope others understand, I am not trying to make someone into something they are not. I've been there and done that. I'm smart enough to realize when I've made a mistake and have learned from them, including that you cannot change who a person is deep down inside. I am merely trying to get him to realize that his deep down desires are ok, and even wanted, with me and that what others feel/believe/think are of no consequence within the realm of our relationship.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thank you Catalina.

I guess that is the ultimate question. How to get someone to trust another enough to open up. I can think of nothing else beyond what I have already tried.

Age is but a number. Time, that is what has me concerned. I do not enjoy it's passing if there is not something pleasant to remember about it, so I deliberately forget things. I have forgotten so many unwanted negative memories now as it is. I did not wish, nor have the desire to take the time to change someone. But I fell in love with the person I seen and experienced. Unfortunately that person is not as in tune with himself as I believed.

I really hope others understand, I am not trying to make someone into something they are not. I've been there and done that. I'm smart enough to realize when I've made a mistake and have learned from them, including that you cannot change who a person is deep down inside. I am merely trying to get him to realize that his deep down desires are ok, and even wanted, with me and that what others feel/believe/think are of no consequence within the realm of our relationship.

I wish you luck. I can empathise. There is nothing worse than seeing anothers' potential, while they don't, and also nothing more soul destroying than staying where you know your needs are not being met and feeling time is slipping by. During my life, there have been moments when I have realised being alone was much healthier, happier, and successful than staying where I felt constant frustration and sadness at what could have been, more so than what really was.

Catalina

 

[FurryFury]

This is what I tell everyone who asks a variant of this question.

1. You can't change anyone the way you want to change them.

2. They will only change or accept parts of themselves as and if they are willing to do so.

3. It might help to call pain a different sensation that you crave. It takes the scary out of the word pain and makes it possibly be on a level someone can begin to consider.

4. Sharing your fantasies THAT YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO MAKE HAPPEN with you S.O. and then letting them share theirs can lead to you both doing things you are NOT initially comfortable with. It can also lead to greater communication and intimacy as long as both parties will accept and not condemn over it.

5. Do try to separate fantasies you do NOT want to actually make happen in your own mind. If you chose to share these make absolutely clear in your communications that these are delicious but not something you'd want in real life.

6. Start slow.


7. Praise him lavishly when he does anything you crave or love or just in general. The human spirit needs more validation and praise than it will ever find in this world.

8. Have fun.

9. Keep in mind why you are in this relationship and honor it every day.

FF

 

[SlaveAtHeart]

Thanks FF.

In your list, #2 is the only problem. He will not or does not know how to open up. I am at a brick wall trying to figure out how to help him without turning him into a drunk (the times he does open up).

 

[midwestyankee]

Thanks FF.

In your list, #2 is the only problem. He will not or does not know how to open up. I am at a brick wall trying to figure out how to help him without turning him into a drunk (the times he does open up).

Coercing or persuading him to act against his nature is not the same thing as helping him.

I think you may be confusing his sexual preferences with opinions about sex acts. For example, you might be able to persuade someone who was misinformed about consensual D/s play and who stubbornly refused to accept that it might be consensual to see that some people do, in fact, engage quite happily in this kind of play. That's what it means to open up a closed mind.

In the case of your lover, it doesn't sound like a case of a closed mind. It sounds like a case of sexual preference. Yes, he may have done a few things that pain players sometimes do, but that does not a pain player make. We all veer from our preferences occasionally but when we do so it's not a sign that the place we veered to is really our core place. To think otherwise is to give more credence to wishful thinking than to reality.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Coercing or persuading him to act against his nature is not the same thing as helping him.

I think you may be confusing his sexual preferences with opinions about sex acts. For example, you might be able to persuade someone who was misinformed about consensual D/s play and who stubbornly refused to accept that it might be consensual to see that some people do, in fact, engage quite happily in this kind of play. That's what it means to open up a closed mind.

In the case of your lover, it doesn't sound like a case of a closed mind. It sounds like a case of sexual preference. Yes, he may have done a few things that pain players sometimes do, but that does not a pain player make. We all veer from our preferences occasionally but when we do so it's not a sign that the place we veered to is really our core place. To think otherwise is to give more credence to wishful thinking than to reality.

Thank you, MWY, this is what I would say too.

OP, if you really do need or want painplay, you will have to present that need to your partner-- as a preference you would like him to gratify once in a while, not for his pleasure but for yours.

I know that doesn't jibe with your perception of submission. You might have to change your own notions a bit, instead of his-- having your needs met is not so unreasonable as all that.

 

[SlaveAtHeart]

Actually, I do not coerce or persuade him to do anything. He is very strong willed all the time. He does what he wants. Nor do I feed him drinks to get what I want. Quite the opposite actually, I'm trying to get him to cut back on that.

That is the problem, he claims he does not understand how people would enjoy that sort of thing. He does not understand how pain can be linked with pleasure. Nor how pleasure can be linked with serving another. In his voiced opinion, he talks about how neither person should be dominant in a relationship (even though he is without realizing it) and he also talks about how causing someone pain is called torturing them and there is no way the other person can derive any pleasure from it.

Yet, as I've mentioned, in our everyday life, he IS the dominant without realizing it. He has also carried that attitude over into the bedroom, and not because I've talked about it/begged/nagged or anything like that. Just because it is what he wanted to do. When he does and we are finish, all he talks about is why don't we do stuff like that more often.

The next day, he acts like he does not remember a thing and how dare I even suggest that he would say, let alone do, such things. I have often thought of recording those times, just to prove to him that they were not a figment of my imagination.

To me, that is a mind that is closed due to brainwashing affects of society as a whole.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Be careful about confusing matters. For instance, if you do not pay the bills or are not good at keeping track of the money flow, so he does it, does not mean he is the Dominant in the relationship. This also applies if it happens that he takes charge because you will not, either because you want him to and take a passive role conciously or unconsciously, or because you can't...it doesn't then translate he is dominant because he stops the train from rolling off the tracks. Same in the bedroom. If you do not initiate anything and so he finally takes control and makes amove to initiate sex, he is just reacting to his physical needs, not being dominant through your ommission. You can't and shouldn't try and trick someone into dominant behaviour and then insist they are being dominant. Wishing for it will not make it so.

D/s, either as a Dominant or submissive, is based on informed consent. If it comes about through manipulation, or in any way without the knowledge of those involved giving their consent and knowing what it is they are consenting to, it is not D/s IMHO, especially after someone has repeatedly refused to play the game and expressed their strong views for doing so. I know it is hard, but just because someone is not on the same wavelength as you does not mean they have not opened their mind enough, it just means it is not for him. Some divide all people into Dominant or submissive catagories when they discover their own interest in D/s, but it is similarly unrealistic because just because someone is a good leader at work or in the family, does not mean they are a Dominant, but some see it as a clear indication that is exactly what they are. There are milions of people who are not Dominant or submissive even though their behaviour might hint they could be one or the other if they chose to be. Choice is the critical factor along with consent. He has his own reasons for not changing his position and you might have to respect that or move on, not continue to try and get him tp change his mind because it is what you believe and want.

Catalina

 

[Stella_Omega]

What catalina said

Trust and believe his sober mind, not his stoned mind. That would be the respectful thing to do.

Not to mention much, safer. We do not play when we are blind dead drunk quel horreur!

 

[FurryFury]

IMO, the best way to get someone to open up to you is:

To make them feel absolutely safe and accepted with you. This is a sacred thing you need to be sure you can deliver on it no matter what is he into.

To open up to them.

To listen, really listen.

Doesn't mean that when you get them to open up you will hear what you want to hear though.

I agree that what happens when drinking is less likely to be the thing you can get to most of the time. Doesn't matter if it's core to him or not.

FF

 

[Etoile]

If someone does something, at will without prodding/begging/or even talk about it, during times when they lack inhibitions and are not worried about what John Q Public has to say about it, and continue to participate in such things at those times and greatly enjoy it, I do not feel that another person who is trying to make that person see that John Q Public does not have a thing to do in that situation, is trying to change the person himself.

My big issue here is that you are constantly referring to the fact that he only does this while drunk. Not that playing drunk is 100% bad - it's unwise, but can be done - but that you seem to think what he likes while drunk is his "true" underlying personality. That's not necessarily the case at all. Being drunk releases inhibitions, not your "true self" or something idealized like that. Yeah, he likes to get into it when he's drunk. But if he's told you repeatedly while sober that he's not into that, give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows himself. Take him at his word. If he's not into it, he's not into it. It seems to me that he does like being kinky...while drunk. He doesn't like being kinky while sober. In his mind, they're not the same thing. By trying to force him to be kinky while sober, you ARE in fact trying to change him.

 

[midwestyankee]

@OP, if you do not take his word about his preferences, why would you expect him to believe you when you tell him what you like?