Would REALLY appreciate feedback!

[paradisetitty]

I put a huge amount of effort into writing this story. It's very long and I think it's very sexy and erotic. I think the length might put a lot of people off but even if you only read a couple of pages I'd love to know if I'm still writing half decent stuff!!

Thanks to anyone who reads it, even if you don't comment or rate it highly I hate to think that after all those nights I spent in front of the PC that it was for nothing!!

http://www.literotica.com/s/two-wrongs-do-make-a-right

 

[hotkitten45]

I havent gotten all the way through yet, but its sounding really good!

 

[paradisetitty]

I havent gotten all the way through yet, but its sounding really good!

Thanks for having a go at it

 

[mariescreams]

I started reading this yesterday actually! I love the detail you go into with regards to the women touching each other, it makes it seem so real.

It definitely wasn't for nothing

 

[paradisetitty]

I started reading this yesterday actually! I love the detail you go into with regards to the women touching each other, it makes it seem so real.

It definitely wasn't for nothing

Thank you so much! I'm happy you like the way I write. For a long time I came to this site wanting to read certain types of stories, but I found that many stories tend to go straight for the 'main event' which is fine but I enjoy the subtle touches aswell. I'm glad other people do too!

 

[PennLady]

It's not for nothing if you got something out of writing it.

I just went over it -- skimmed; sorry, don't have time to read it all the way through -- and the one thing that struck me was that you tell a lot instead of show. You tell us what the characters are thinking, for example, instead of a line like, "What am I doing? This isn't me! Kelly thought." The telling instead of showing kept me a degree or two removed from the characters.

 

[paradisetitty]

Thanks, but if you only skimmed it rather than actually reading it then you won't get any sense out of it.
I focused on feelings like that because just about every story on this site shows a great deal, I wanted to deliver a story where you got to know the characters rather than just seeing Girl A have sex with Girl B.
Kelly had never been involved with another woman and I wanted to remind the reader of that, if I'd ignored it and put her in full lesbian mode right from the start it wouldve made no sense.

 

[PennLady]

Thanks, but if you only skimmed it rather than actually reading it then you won't get any sense out of it.
I focused on feelings like that because just about every story on this site shows a great deal, I wanted to deliver a story where you got to know the characters rather than just seeing Girl A have sex with Girl B.
Kelly had never been involved with another woman and I wanted to remind the reader of that, if I'd ignored it and put her in full lesbian mode right from the start it wouldve made no sense.

You're misunderstanding. I skimmed enough that I got it; I read where I felt it was warranted, moved ahead when I felt I could. And part of that was all the telling. It was boring. I'm trying to tell you that with all the telling, I didn't feel that I got to know the characters. I had you telling me about them, but I wanted you to show me, through their thoughts, actions, and reactions, what they were like. Instead I basically have to take your word for everything.

I said nothing about Kelly being with another woman or not and my criticism has nothing to do with whether she's in full lesbian mode or not. As I said, you're missing my point. You can show feelings, and I admit there's a balance between show v tell, but you were too far to the tell side.

 

[PacoFear]

Paradise,

I started off intending to chime in for the purpose of seconding PennLady's feedback then got sucked into this thing somehow.

Seconding PennLady's feedback
Yep, you're a bit too "telly." Readers want to learn about the characters on their own, draw their own inferences from what the characters say and do. It's a crucial way to get readers to connect to your characters.

In my admittedly limited experience around these parts, writers who overtell tend to have one of two things going on, or a mix thereof: a) a fear of writing dialogue; or b) a fear that the readers won't interpret the story in precisely the way the writer intends.

The bad news is working on a) is hard, but well worth the effort. There's many lovely dialogue how-to's here on Lit. I noticed you have one of them favorited. One of our other very capable resident smutresses, Firebrain, wrote a nice one too: Dialogue This

The good news is working on b) is easy. Readers are smart. Well, most of them anyway. So give 'em some credit. The upside is that you actually have to write less, which is really nice if you're lazy like me. This is all sounding abstract. Need examples from your story? Okee doke.

Kelly just shook her head to say no.

A shake of the head is a no the world around. No need to explain. Explaining is telling. This sentence could have read, "Kelly shook her head."

Jennifer saw that Kelly was nervous; her trembling hands gave a clear indication of it.

Same thing. Simply saying that Kelly's hands trembled would have conveyed her nervousness just fine, but I'm guessing that you wanted to make extra sure that there was no misunderstanding and so did the work of interpreting it for your readers. Your intentions are noble, but you're doing violence to your narrative.

Other writerly stuff

• Consider ditching the exclamation points in your exposition. They read a bit hokey.

• Watch your repetition: you used the same word to describe Kelly five times on the first page: "shy."

Momentary character confusion
I got a little disoriented with respect to Kelly. You told us that she came out at eighteen. But we learn later that she's a virgin. Then we learn that she's never kissed another woman. Wait, huh? How does she know she's gay? If she's merely theoretically gay, pining for the right gal but too scared to put herself out there, I didn't pick up on that until too late. It's an interesting idea and could be used to shed some light on her character.

This is porn
Your story isn't lining up with the noble intentions you professed in your forum post. The story reads like porn to me, which is fine. Everybody likes porn. Still, let's call a spade a spade. Jennifer and Kelly don't get to know each other before hopping in the sack. There's no flirtation, no seduction. It's just Jennifer groping Kelly and then the clothing goes aflying.

Just my $0.02. Do with it as you will.

-PacoFear

 

[sr71plt]

A shake of the head is a no the world around. No need to explain. Explaining is telling. This sentence could have read, "Kelly shook her head."

Except in India, Bengladesh, Sri Lanka, and parts of Burma, I think, which I discovered to my great frustration.

Enjoyed your discussion, though.

 

[PacoFear]

Except in India, Bengladesh, Sri Lanka, and parts of Burma, I think, which I discovered to my great frustration.

Enjoyed your discussion, though.

I'll give you that one. Is there anywhere that trembling hands are misinterprted though?

 

[sr71plt]

I'll give you that one. Is there anywhere that trembling hands are misinterprted though?

Yep, Kelly's trembling hands should convey all that's needed. Unless it's known that she suffers from palsy. Then maybe a steady hand would show stress.

I'd push that "fear that the reader won't understand the story as intended" concept a bit. I think the author shouldn't be unhappy if the reader gets his/her own message out of the story rather than the one the author thought was there--as long as the reader doesn't quibble that the author hasn't remained faithful to one line of interpretation when other readers understand that the author has.

I've noted somewhere on the forum where a botched set I'd ordered for a stage play once was interpreted as both purposeful and meaningful by the critics. I just tip toe away from such instances glad that the reader has worked hard enough to pull her/his own meanings out of it--which, as both you and Penn Lady note, isn't going to be likely when the author is heavyhanded and dictitorial in telling the reader what she/he can and cannot take from the story on his/her own.

 

[PennLady]

Yep, Kelly's trembling hands should convey all that's needed. Unless it's known that she suffers from palsy. Then maybe a steady hand would show stress.

I'd push that "fear that the reader won't understand the story as intended" concept a bit. I think the author shouldn't be unhappy if the reader gets his/her own message out of the story rather than the one the author thought was there--as long as the reader doesn't quibble that the author hasn't remained faithful to one line of interpretation when other readers understand that the author has.

I've noted somewhere on the forum where a botched set I'd ordered for a stage play once was interpreted as both purposeful and meaningful by the critics. I just tip toe away from such instances glad that the reader has worked hard enough to pull her/his own meanings out of it--which, as both you and Penn Lady note, isn't going to be likely when the author is heavyhanded and dictitorial in telling the reader what she/he can and cannot take from the story on his/her own.

Less is more and keep it simple are two important tenets when writing, I think. Not the only ones, but important ones.

I was discussing with a friend of mine not too long ago how an artist -- writer, painter, whatever -- loses control of their work once they put it out for view. You may write a story that you think is about someone coming to terms with loss, and the reader might see it as someone being callous about it. That's just a broad example. But you can't tell the reader what to take away, as sr71 says. In my case, I get annoyed and bored with that.

I guess with practice comes confidence. If you can't be confident that you're portraying your character(s) as you want them to be, then you likely need more practice.

And I have to emphasize that for me, in a story like this, the constant telling keeps me removed from the characters, like watching them from a distance, or through a window. I'm not involved with them.

 

[bwallard]

You lost me in the first paragraph. How does the protagonist know that her brother is on the other end of the line? If there is some way, then you have to say how.

This goes along with other comments. Engage with your characters. Don't write off the top of your head. get into each character. What does he or she see and understand? If you had been fully engaged with your characters you wouldn't have made that mistake.

 

[paradisetitty]

So...what? Did I butcher the story? lol The truth is that, honestly, I tried to do a lot of things at once. Someone mentioned porn at the beginning, I wanted to grab people and bring them in. Possibly too much too soon.

Maybe I did over explain, was never intentional, someone once told me that you must treat the reader as if (no offence) they're stupid therefore explination was key. Was my English teacher actually. Bitch.

The story changed too much, it was supposed to be about two womens journey through a difficult time and finding solice in each other, I went off track a lot with the whole restaurant episode and the sisters. I suppose I was attempting to please everyone by putting a bit of everything in. From threesomes to exhibitionism etc etc And, honestly, it breaks my heart to know the actual love was lost in a sea of porn-scene-sex-moments.

Hey, was worth a try

 

[PennLady]

So...what? Did I butcher the story? lol The truth is that, honestly, I tried to do a lot of things at once. Someone mentioned porn at the beginning, I wanted to grab people and bring them in. Possibly too much too soon.

Maybe I did over explain, was never intentional, someone once told me that you must treat the reader as if (no offence) they're stupid therefore explination was key. Was my English teacher actually. Bitch.

The story changed too much, it was supposed to be about two womens journey through a difficult time and finding solice in each other, I went off track a lot with the whole restaurant episode and the sisters. I suppose I was attempting to please everyone by putting a bit of everything in. From threesomes to exhibitionism etc etc And, honestly, it breaks my heart to know the actual love was lost in a sea of porn-scene-sex-moments.

Hey, was worth a try

FWIW, I don't think you butchered the story. You made an effort, asked for feedback, and some of us gave you our thoughts. It's just opinions, nothing more or less.

It does sound like you tried to please too many people, and none of them yourself. Of course when you're submitting to a site like this, you want people to read your stories, and so you hope your title, tagline, and first graph or two bring them in. Still, you need to write the story you want to tell, not the story you think others want to read.

I am not an English teacher, but I would seriously disagree with the advice you got. Readers aren't stupid, and they don't like being treated as such. I certainly don't. You can provide explanations and back stories without acting like people are idiots. Explanation is important, but not because people are stupid; it's important because otherwise your story will make no sense.

I also don't think the love was lost in a sea of porn. I do think it came a bit out of left field, as I recall, since all the emphasis was on one character, and there was no real hint that the roommate was gay, let alone in love with the main character.

You can tell this story, of two women going through difficult times and finding each other to love, but you probably need to tell it differently.

 

[SydneyBlake]

If I may...

I'd like to offer you a contrast. *Reread the first scene from your story. *It "tells."

Now consider this scene, which "shows":

"I can't see you anymore." *Jennifer's voice over the phone was light. *Cheerful even. *

"You can't what?" I asked. *Surely I'd misunderstood her. *We had plans to see Wicked together. *It's not a movie. *You can't just go to a later showing. *What the hell was she saying?

"I'm in love with someone else," she said. *

My knees went limp. *I groped for the recliner, pulled myself around it, fell into it. *A huge lump in my throat made me choke on my words. *"You're what?"

"I'm in love with someone else," she said. *She paused. *"A man."

This wasn't happening. * We had Wicked tickets. *I was going to pick her up in two hours, and we were going to eat at Luigi's, and go to the theater, and she said that I gave her better head than any man she'd ever been with! **

I gave her the best nine months of my life, and now she's breaking my heart for a man? *My heart was pounding, my head was spinning, and what was that in the background? *Was that laughter? *His laughter? *Was he there with her right now? *Was he smugly listening to her dump her lesbian lover?

"You can't," I started to say, and then I heard him again. *He was talking to her, and the knot in my gut wrenched painfully as I realized that I recognized his voice. *But it couldn't be. *I had to be hearing things.

"Kelly?" Jennifer asked. *

"I have to go," I heard myself croak, and I hung up the phone before I could hear that voice again, that familiar voice, with that familiar laugh. *

Josh, my brother.*

***

In this example, you "see" Kelly's shock. *You're not "told."

I hope that helps you see what is meant by "show, don't tell."

 

[SydneyBlake]

Sorry about all the ****. I'm typing on my phone.

 

[PennLady]

Sorry about all the ****. I'm typing on my phone.

Thanks for posting that, Syd. It's much clearer that way. Easier to show a person what you mean.

 

[SydneyBlake]

Thanks for posting that, Syd. It's much clearer that way. Easier to show a person what you mean.

Thanks. Hope I didn't overstep anything. I felt inspired.

 

[moralityloophole]

....I suppose I was attempting to please everyone by putting a bit of everything in. From threesomes to exhibitionism etc etc And, honestly, it breaks my heart to know the actual love was lost in a sea of porn-scene-sex-moments.

Hey, was worth a try

I don't think the love story was lost, but there was certainly plenty of gratuitous sex. On LitE that's a good thing!

On the other hand the story was quite long before the reveal at the end, so those reading it for porn might not have made it to the end before they ... finished.

 

[paradisetitty]

I never expected to start such a long conversation. I'm really grateful for everyone's opinion and it seems like at least a few people enjoyed it LOL!

I've started getting the 'itch' to writ again, I only ever intended on writing one story! (The first Stacy story) but it can get addictive. I know writing isn't all about pleasing everyone. I think I'll abandon the long format and go back to something like my 'babysitter' story: one focus.

Thanks for the advice, I'll certainly take it onboard. Everyone's allowed at least one mistake, even if it was more than 50 'MS Word' pages long!

Thanks again.

 

[paradisetitty]

moralityloophole

I wanted to make people...ahem...finish many times. With the hope of getting a little further in the story each visit