True Grit, sexual metaphors

[mikesaysno]

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[Experiencedguy]

Well Mike, sorry to disillusion you, but I think the story was just being true to the times. During the middle to late 1800's in the United States, many 'woman' of 14 were already married, and more than a few already had their first child. In real life, sex was not discussed in great detail, but people were fucking just as much then as now. There was no such thing as statutory rape. Indeed, my grandmother (who was born in 1909) married a much older man (he was born in 1898) at the age of 14. Her first child (my mother) was born when she was 15. Sexual subtley aside, it was realistic.

 

[mikesaysno]

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[Handley_Page]

There was a time when "schoolgirls" could develop a "crush" on the older man (teacher?). [I do not know if this is still the case].
Is it possible that this sort of "young girl" crush could be seen in the same light ?

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I'm not questioning the historical reality. But the film doesn't explore the subject in a matter of fact way. On the surface it actually appeals to our modern values. In fact when Le Beouf first meets Matty, he tells her that he had thought of stealing a kiss but was dissuaded when he considered her age.

I'm not taking a moral position. But I do find it interesting how material is treated when it's suggestive rather than Literal.

For example I imagine if you were to make an historical film about a man and his fourteen year old wife then you might feel obliged to depict the hardships and a sense of lost childhood - generally framing the content within a modern context. It's unlikely that you would create a sex scene where she is being fucked doggy style and loving it. But this is exactly how Matty is depicted in True Grit as she is being carried on horseback in the latter part of the film.

Try reading Charles Portis' original novel. The new film is so much better than the John Wayne yawn we were allowed to watch as kids. The novel explores Mattie's fantasies about a much older man quite subtly. I thought the film tried successfully to portray a newly pubescent girl's exploration of her nascent sexuality and, for me, showed the limitation of screen over writing in portraying emotion and feeling.

The images try to convey Maggie's thoughts but, I agree, are a tad gross against the author's words.

Because of necessary protection, of expoitation of minors, we have become more age-conscious of sexual awakening of adolescents. I would suggest that any woman watching 'True Grit' would have a different take to you on the so-called 'doggy style' horse ride. Just my take.

 

[PennLady]

Because of necessary protection, of expoitation of minors, we have become more age-conscious of sexual awakening of adolescents. I would suggest that any woman watching 'True Grit' would have a different take to you on the so-called 'doggy style' horse ride. Just my take.

I haven't seen either True Grit yet, so I'll be curious to keep this in mind while watching (we recently acquired both versions -- my hub is on a Western kick).

But I have to say I've had thoughts along these lines with HBO's Game of Thrones. I finished the first book (GoT) and am reading the second (A Clash of Kings). In the books, the young characters are actually younger than the TV ones. Probably the biggest change is that Danaerys, who is wed to a horselord named Khal Drogo, is 13 in the book, yet likely more like 18 in the TV series. but the age of other characters has been raised as well.

And I think this has everything to do with how we view things today. True, back medieval times, and more recent than that as others have noted, girls (and boys) were married off at young ages. Surely they were more adult at those ages than many are now, even in their 20s. However, I don't think that would fly. So to make it more palatable, acceptable, or whatever, they've raised the ages.

 

[mikesaysno]

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[3113]

She tells him to stop because her pony is spent but he STABS it with a KNIFE and rides harder.

I don't think I can watch this movie. Cruelty to animals?

 

[PennLady]

I don't think I can watch this movie. Cruelty to animals?

Well it was the Old West, and I'm sure the animal wasn't actually harmed.

 

[TE999]

You want sexual symbolism? Watch the movie 'Lolita'.

Marriages of girls as young as 12 was commonplace until the mid-20th Century in Western cultures. It still occurs in other parts of the world for the same practical reasons; short lifespans, the need for cheap labor and perpetuation of the species.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Marriages of girls as young as 12 was commonplace until the mid-20th Century in Western cultures.

Hmmm. Marriage at twelve may have happened, but I doubt it was common. In the US at least, studies based on Census data place median marriage ages for women in the late teens and early twenties. You'd need one wacky distribution to make twelve come close to common.

 

[bronzeage]

Hmmm. Marriage at twelve may have happened, but I doubt it was common. In the US at least, studies based on Census data place median marriage ages for women in the late teens and early twenties. You'd need one wacky distribution to make twelve come close to common.

If the dates and ages are shifted slightly, it is common. Until WW1, the standard education for a girl was eight years. If she intended to become an elementary teacher, she attended another school another 2 years.

One of my grandmothers married at 14 and the other at 16. I believe the average age was higher in cities and lower in rural area. The average age of the groom was much older than the bride. Men were expected to take the girl into his house and support her at least as well as the home she left. This was a major concern for her family.

A girl's adolescence was considered over when she was prepared for adult life. When the common idea of adult life was to be wife and mother, fourteen to sixteen was plenty of preparation.


My maternal grandmother shared a birthday with her eighth grade teacher, who was only 4 years older than her. The two women traded birthday cards and phone calls until my grandmother was in her 70's. Her teacher outlived her.

 

[mynameisben]

You want sexual symbolism? Watch the movie 'Lolita'.

Marriages of girls as young as 12 was commonplace until the mid-20th Century in Western cultures. It still occurs in other parts of the world for the same practical reasons; short lifespans, the need for cheap labor and perpetuation of the species.

1974's Flesh Gordon is another one, rife with sexual symbolism.

 

[PennLady]

You want sexual symbolism? Watch the movie 'Lolita'.

Does that even count? I mean, a guy who's fixated on a 12yo (or whatever she was, 13?) girl - that's not symbolism. That's just the story. Although I'm sure there was a lot of other symbolism there. Been a long time since I read the book and I'm sure I didn't get it all at the time.

Hmmm. Marriage at twelve may have happened, but I doubt it was common. In the US at least, studies based on Census data place median marriage ages for women in the late teens and early twenties. You'd need one wacky distribution to make twelve come close to common.

I bet it would vary depending on the location. More urban, city-type locations probably had them marrying later. In rural areas, with presumably less education and less money, they may have married earlier. And TE said "western cultures," not the U.S. specifically. That likely makes a big difference.

 

[3113]

I don't think the issue here is the age of the girl. The story is not about her getting married, after all. It's about her getting revenge for her father's murder. That sort of story doesn't have to contain any sexual metaphors.

It is a film, a modern way of presenting things, and the directors put in what the directors wanted to put in, emphasizing what they wanted to emphasize. If they decided that the story under the story is a girl finding her sexuality, then there might be metaphors there that are not in the original tale.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

If the dates and ages are shifted slightly, it is common. Until WW1, the standard education for a girl was eight years. If she intended to become an elementary teacher, she attended another school another 2 years.

One of my grandmothers married at 14 and the other at 16. I believe the average age was higher in cities and lower in rural area. The average age of the groom was much older than the bride. Men were expected to take the girl into his house and support her at least as well as the home she left. This was a major concern for her family.

A girl's adolescence was considered over when she was prepared for adult life. When the common idea of adult life was to be wife and mother, fourteen to sixteen was plenty of preparation.

Twelve to fourteen, and especially twelve to sixteen, represents a huge gap in my mind. I'm not saying twelve didn't happen; I just said it wasn't common in a homogeneous Western culture (especially given the fact that, on average, girls couldn't produce kids at twelve way back when).

But yes, if we assume a US average of eighteen (which is on the low end of the averages), then sixteen wouldn't have been shockingly young. Twelve still would be.

And TE said "western cultures," not the U.S. specifically. That likely makes a big difference.

Yes, but the US had younger ages than Europe.

I don't think the issue here is the age of the girl. The story is not about her getting married, after all.

Sorry. Here endeth the tangent; no more lit plus population or family economics. I need to work on my posting self control.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Florida outlawed child brides in 1925; before 1925 there was no age limit, and brides of 10-12 were common. Generally speaking, marriage was how families handled orphan females. Plenty ended up in brothels cuz there was no age of consent limit, no statutory rape.