Worldbuilding - not just for longer works (is it?)

[punkreader]

Browsing through the How-To articles, I was a bit dismayed to see that there wasn't a single one on the topic of worldbuilding - plenty on grammar and actual writing, though. I've decided, given that I have books on worldbuilding that I can reference, and my own world's examples I can give, I'll write an article. Got any tips for me that you'd like to see included?

Furthermore, do most people consider worldbuilding to be only for longer works, or those of a certain genre? If so, why? - I don't get it, but that's perhaps because I get as much enjoyment out of setting and world as out of the characters and their fucking (or not). I'm pretty sure that a lot of writers, particularly those of shorter things, see it as a lot of effort (and it is, but it's also rewarding if done right), but it can be fun on its own, can't it? Why do you think there isn't more of it in shorter stories? My guess is lack of time, intimidation, and, yes, laziness (for some).

 

[Experiencedguy]

Either I don't understand you, or you don't understand us??? Excuse me, but this is primarily an Erotic site. Although a lot of topics are accepted here, worldbuilding and fucking hardly go together.

Worldbuilding is an enjoyable topic, either factual, or science fiction, but I just don't see the connection with world building and sex, unless you were building a new world where the only purpose of life was fucking.

As far as worldbuilding in today's environment, that is a sore topic anywhere. In the United States we are 'building and defending' the world in our own image, when we have mass unemployment, lack of education, extreme poverty, that it is a shame to help anyone else when we can't even help ourself (alhtough I do send some of my extra money to a foreign orphanage).

Also, you are only 18, and still in high school. You have no real experience to build on, just what you have read. Although I am glad that you have the resources and interest to research such material, come back and talk to me after you have spent over a decade overseas 'helping' people, who really don't want your help, only your money.

Sorry to be so negative on you, but I don't see the connection.

Now, to all the people whom I pissed off by my negative response, stick up for this kids beliefs and show me wrong. I'll gladly follow to see the other side.

 

[SweetErika]

Punk, this topic will probably get more of the type of responses you're looking for in the Author's Hangout or one of the other writing forums. I'd suggest PMing LadyG with a link to this thread and polite request to relocate it to the forum you feel you'd get the best feedback from.

As for why many Lit authors don't do worldbuilding specifically, I'm guessing it's because many of the stories don't require such an extensive process or settings. Most people are probably fine building settings and characters in their heads, or using other techniques to organize their thoughts and keep track of details. From what I gather, worldbuilding is primarily used when writing fantasy, sci-fi or historical fiction - genres that usually require far more planning and detail than erotica with recent/present settings and characters.

 

[sunandshadow]

I don't see why worldbuilding would be needed or appropriate outside the milieu genres (science fiction, fantasy, and historical). As far as shorter pieces go, wourldbuilding typically take up 10% of the wordcount of a longer story. You can't do much of interest with 10% of the wordcount of a short story, and you're also sacrificing words that you could be spending on sex or character development or plot instead.

 

[punkreader]

Punk, this topic will probably get more of the type of responses you're looking for in the Author's Hangout or one of the other writing forums. I'd suggest PMing LadyG with a link to this thread and polite request to relocate it to the forum you feel you'd get the best feedback from.

As for why many Lit authors don't do worldbuilding specifically, I'm guessing it's because many of the stories don't require such an extensive process or settings. Most people are probably fine building settings and characters in their heads, or using other techniques to organize their thoughts and keep track of details. From what I gather, worldbuilding is primarily used when writing fantasy, sci-fi or historical fiction - genres that usually require far more planning and detail than erotica with recent/present settings and characters.

I think you're right, SweetErika. Thank you; I'll do that shortly.

I agree with you - especially many of the stories on Lit, just by virtue of it being an erotic literature site. Most commonly, it's used in those genres - or, rather, it's most prominently used and more easily identifiable within sci-fi, fantasy, and historical fiction. They do, but worldbuilding can just be a simple setting, not a sprawling universe. Most erotica probably doesn't need worldbuilding or a more detailed setting, but I like the extra dimension that it adds when it's present, and that it shows the author as a dedicated writer.

Either I don't understand you, or you don't understand us??? Excuse me, but this is primarily an Erotic site. Although a lot of topics are accepted here, worldbuilding and fucking hardly go together.

Worldbuilding is an enjoyable topic, either factual, or science fiction, but I just don't see the connection with world building and sex, unless you were building a new world where the only purpose of life was fucking.

As far as worldbuilding in today's environment, that is a sore topic anywhere. In the United States we are 'building and defending' the world in our own image, when we have mass unemployment, lack of education, extreme poverty, that it is a shame to help anyone else when we can't even help ourself (alhtough I do send some of my extra money to a foreign orphanage).

Also, you are only 18, and still in high school. You have no real experience to build on, just what you have read. Although I am glad that you have the resources and interest to research such material, come back and talk to me after you have spent over a decade overseas 'helping' people, who really don't want your help, only your money.

Sorry to be so negative on you, but I don't see the connection.

Now, to all the people whom I pissed off by my negative response, stick up for this kids beliefs and show me wrong. I'll gladly follow to see the other side.

@Experiencedguy: I think it might be mutual. Believe me, I'm very aware of that, and that most erotic literature doesn't need any sort of defined setting or world or whatever. You're right, they don't, but when they do get put together in a way that fits, it's kind of refreshing, and something different from the norm.

Hmmm, well the two could go together in any number of ways, from having one society or civilization in which sex (or a certain type of sex) is entirely taboo to having a world that's sexual freedom incarnate. And worldbuilding doesn't have to be an entire world - it can be just a setting, or even one partner's attitude towards a certain aspect of sex. I'm just saying that sex could be part of an environment, large or small, that could affect the story in a number of ways. The different cultures in Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Dart are a good example (the book, by the way, is based around a masochistic high-class courtesan and sex): each has its own, very different, ideas about what sex is and isn't - it's part of the world and part of the (copious amounts of) fucking at the same time. I do understand what you're saying, though.

You're absolutely right about worldbuilding in today's environment, and I agree with what you've said. It's part of why I, personally, don't use the modern environment much in what I write - because I'm too close to it to be objective, and I don't feel I can write it well enough. Glad to hear about your donations - I donate some of mine to children's hospitals, schools, and relief efforts.

While that's true, and I am only a student, I'd like to argue that I do indeed have experience(s) to draw on, sexual or not. I'll readily acknowledge that my actual sexual experience is limited to foreplay and I've not had much chance to travel the world and see other countries as I would have liked (although I have been to Haiti, the Grand Cayman Islands, and a few small villages in costal Mexico - though that's still not very far, nor broad), but that doesn't make everything that I have to say invalid or automatically full of holes. Some of it more prone to errors and flaws than when done by others? By nature and circumstances, yes, of course. For all that I lack in sexual and worldly experience, I've gained determination and perseverence, knowledge, and a desire to help others, to heal in any way I can. I can thank child abuse and my sociopathic, alcoholic father for that, and for many other things I now deal with. I can't write about the same things you can, but I can write about others.

Thank you; perhaps I shall - although I'm unsure if overseas is a possibility. Oh, I know - I've been on the other end of such things: those who are supposed to "help," and only want money. And I'm disgusted at this point with such people - not you, but in general, those that claim to help and only extort (that said, I'm also disgusted with the people you're talking about, who supposedly desire "help," but are really after the person's money).

I appreciate the apology, and thank you, but there's no need. I didn't explain the connection clearly - I should have said "elaboration upon setting" instead of worldbuilding.

I don't see why worldbuilding would be needed or appropriate outside the milieu genres (science fiction, fantasy, and historical). As far as shorter pieces go, wourldbuilding typically take up 10% of the wordcount of a longer story. You can't do much of interest with 10% of the wordcount of a short story, and you're also sacrificing words that you could be spending on sex or character development or plot instead.

True, but even a basic setting (like just saying "Brooklyn, New York" in one sentence) can be fun without taking up much space at all. I'm not saying that one should go crazy on setting or worldbuilding, but even just a hint can add a new dimension to a story, short or long.

 

[NippleMuncher]

True, but even a basic setting (like just saying "Brooklyn, New York" in one sentence) can be fun without taking up much space at all. I'm not saying that one should go crazy on setting or worldbuilding, but even just a hint can add a new dimension to a story, short or long.

I would have to say that unless setting the environment to the presented scenario is necessitated (as when writing an epic novel or screen play - e.g., Dune or The Matrix ), world building isn't a big requirement in most writing, particularly erotica where descriptive powers need to be more focused on the characters than the environment.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Mmm Worldbuilding! It's always there, even if it's only the bed they leap into...

See what I did there? If they leap into bed, there must be a floor they leaped from. There's probably some walls around that floor and a doorway through one of the walls. The mind fills in so many details so rapidly, the reader hardly needs to be told much more. Since our lovers are really not looking at much more than each other, the room can be hazy. But if the phone rings-- suddenly the nightstand pops into view. Again, the writer doesn't need to tell us anything else about the nightstand. Or, the rug (plush and posh, or worn and dirty) on which his jeans lay, where he rummages for his cell phone.

 

[mynameisben]

I thought this thread was entitled "Wordbuilding - not just for longer words (is it?)"

I seriously need to get my eyes checked.

 

[JackLuis]

I've read a lot of "Worlds" here, as was said, mostly in SF and Fantasy, and longer works for the most part.

My Spreading Seeds is a "Future World" story, but was too long to capture my imagination.

I built a couple of more, the Latest is my Horny Springs Series. One thing I'm trying to do in this one is let the reader fill in most of the sweaty, huffing and puffing. That saves a lot on word count which allows some room for upholstering the story with subplots to allow greater range of stories in a "contained World". Or, so I imagined.

As Stella said, you can build from the aetherical, tapping into the, (God forbid!) Stereotypical Tropes.

Don't let people tell you it can not be done, show them how it can be done

"My New Best Friend is a "world story", granted it is Canada, 2007, but how many world's have a stay at home Dad, who cooks and gives gifts, and who wonders if the camel ever gets laid? It's fairly short too.

For a twisted world, try, my "Sexual Therapy", Chapter 2 is the best part, but you can skim 1 and not be too far off.

Worlds are as you make them, in Fiction. Good fiction removes you from your world and provides another with answers for the burning questions of the day.

 

[glynndah]

I thought this thread was entitled "Wordbuilding - not just for longer words (is it?)"

I seriously need to get my eyes checked.

Oh, no! I'm sharing Ben's body! I read the exact same thing!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Punkreader, I'm always building worlds. If someone of literary bent were to go through my stories (God forbid!) and compare characters, settings and behavior he/she would come to the conclusion that somewhere in the Mid-South, in a separate timeline, there are a lot of very horny people all interested in sharing on a fairly regular basis. They interact with people who aren't and don't but among their friends and lovers they do get around. It's a world. From the outside it looks pretty mundane and you only find out how pervy they are when you've been accepted into one of the various groups. They don't know about each other but they're all in the same world.

 

[Darkniciad]

I tend to do at least some minor worldbuilding on everything. It may only be a rough sketch of a floorplan, but there's usually something I'm using for reference.

Once I get into something that's longer or I'm going to use a location in another story, I start going farther.

http://www.darkniciad.com/hotlink_pics/Xantina Wood New.jpg

I'm loving the new cartography software This shrunk-down .jpg version doesn't do the actual maps justice -- let alone the zooming ability I have for my actual writing references.

Anything I would suggest would be more oriented toward the narrower focus of fantasy worlds, and I have the feeling you're going for a broader overview.

I actually use a lot of techniques from David and Leigh Eddings' The Rivan Codex when I'm working on a fantasy world for a story, though it's mainly been for adapting an already detailed, existing world from my PnP gaming days thusfar.

 

[Weird Harold]

Mmm Worldbuilding! It's always there, even if it's only the bed they leap into...

So true.

Unless you're writing non-fiction with 100% accuracy, there is some element of world-building going on. It generally doesn't rise to the level of a separate consideration until you start changing laws, social conventions, or adding streets that don't exist to towns that are just names on a map to suit the convenience of your plotting.

The trick is to make whatever changes to reality you include in your work hold together in a consistent manner. The further you deviate from reality the more things you'll have to keep straight.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Mmm Worldbuilding! It's always there, even if it's only the bed they leap into...

See what I did there? If they leap into bed, there must be a floor they leaped from. There's probably some walls around that floor and a doorway through one of the walls. The mind fills in so many details so rapidly, the reader hardly needs to be told much more. Since our lovers are really not looking at much more than each other, the room can be hazy. But if the phone rings-- suddenly the nightstand pops into view. Again, the writer doesn't need to tell us anything else about the nightstand. Or, the rug (plush and posh, or worn and dirty) on which his jeans lay, where he rummages for his cell phone.

I was thinking diving board or cliff, maybe even a ladder.

Even if the world we build is the one that is around us all the time even in short works it's done.

"I walked into the bar, it looked like so many bars I had walked into before."

In one line I just built the world in which the story will take place.

 

[sr71plt]

In fiction, I think good worldbuilding would be just constructing the minimum framework that permits the reader to weave his/her own world. I don't think it's a matter of constructing an elaborate world yourself and dropping the reader in a corner just as an observer with the indication that they mustn't touch anything in the already fully realized world.

 

[3113]

Big Topic!

But the main question is about why there is no essay on how to build a world. And the answer to that is amply shown by Stella. Most erotic stories take place in the here and now and readers can easily fill in the blanks. What's more, building the world is very easy when everyone shares the same references. I can say, "They stopped at a MacDonalds" and even someone from India reading my story will know what I mean. I don't have to explain what a MacDonalds is as I would if I were creating a sci-fi world and said, "They entered Xzy's..."

What you need to do, punkreader, is check out some sci-fi story site--or historical story sites. That is where you'll find yourself drowning in essays on how to world-build. And I mean really world build. A sci-fi writer may well start with the solar system. How many planets? What kind of sun? How big is the planet? Gravity? Water world or desert world? On and on....and, yes, a sci-fi writer might want to know all that. Or he/she might just want to know what key thing has happened in the history of the city to have gotten it to this point. For example, has the city never gotten over the great war when half of it was demolished to rubble and the invaders took over?

This goes for fantasy stories as well. What level of technology vies with the magic? industrial? Computers? As you can see, one problem with writing an essay on world building is that the topic--if you're not discussing the here and now--is incredibly complex.

So what should you do? (1) Go to sf/fantasy writing sites. (2) There are whole books on the subject--why not get one? (3) quick and dirty tip--focus on theme and mood and the world will come What that means is, if the mood of your story is dark and gloomy, then the world you need can rise out of that. If your story is all about finding faith and religion, then, again, your world can rise up out of that. Rather than building from the solar system up, you can build from the message and feeling of the story you're trying to tell.

Long-and-short: most likely if you can do it quick and dirty (meaning you're in the here and now) you don't need an essay to help you build your world. If you can't do it quick and dirty, if it's sci-fi or fantasy...then a mere essay is not going to be enough. You really need a book on this admittedly fascinating topic.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm game. What's a MacDonalds?

 

[Firebrain]

World-building is perfectly relevant to erotic stories--any story, in fact. The rules are different to scifi/fantasy but how often do we see the same cliched settings, same tropes and caricatures, same frickin' everything?

For one novel, I had to world-build a law office in London full of politics and scandal. That took a lot of research, time and general fiddling with character roles. That world had its own rules, regulations and expectations, and they informed the story.

You might not notice world-building in contemporary works, but you sure as heck notice when it's done badly.

 

[bronzeage]

Mmm Worldbuilding! It's always there, even if it's only the bed they leap into...

See what I did there? If they leap into bed, there must be a floor they leaped from. There's probably some walls around that floor and a doorway through one of the walls. The mind fills in so many details so rapidly, the reader hardly needs to be told much more. Since our lovers are really not looking at much more than each other, the room can be hazy. But if the phone rings-- suddenly the nightstand pops into view. Again, the writer doesn't need to tell us anything else about the nightstand. Or, the rug (plush and posh, or worn and dirty) on which his jeans lay, where he rummages for his cell phone.

This is true. A writer only needs to supply details necessary to the plot. The amount of detail given is a matter of style.

I have a friend who likes to create alternate worlds and universes. He can describe the geology, the climate, the cities and people as if he were an anthropologist, but he can't create a character and put them in his little worlds. All his stuff ends up reading like Tarzan's high school yearbook. Every thing is there, but nobody does anything.

 

[3113]

Setting = Another Character

For one novel, I had to world-build a law office in London full of politics and scandal. That took a lot of research, time and general fiddling with character roles. That world had its own rules, regulations and expectations, and they informed the story.

You might not notice world-building in contemporary works, but you sure as heck notice when it's done badly.

Granted, this is world building, but what would you say in an essay on the topic? of building a world in the Here and Now? Not much except: research law offices (exactly as you did) and the lawyers who work there. Right? There's no book on how to create a real law office as the answer is obvious. But there are books on creating realistic sci-fi and fantasy worlds because the answer to that is not so obvious.

J.R.R. Tolkien said that it was very easy to imagine a green sun, but very hard to create the world that existed under it. I'm not trying to say that any less effort or imagination should be give to a law office, but you can walk into one, see it, talk to those who work in such a place, etc. Hey, I can see a London law office on tv by watching "Law & Order U.K."! You can't do that with the world under the green sun. And this is why you've got several books on world building in that genre, yet not one essay on world building for erotic stories here on Lit.

And I imagine if there were an essay on it, it would pretty much elaborate on your rant about trying to avoid clichés.

I have a friend who likes to create alternate worlds and universes. He can describe the geology, the climate, the cities and people as if he were an anthropologist, but he can't create a character and put them in his little worlds. All his stuff ends up reading like Tarzan's high school yearbook. Every thing is there, but nobody does anything.

I know a great many writers like this. It's the big danger of hard science fiction, also, ironically, the big attraction as many who love hard SF simply want to explore the world and the science of the world and complex characters would just get in the way of that. Dune, which is a great read, has amazingly pulplish characters for all they pretend to be complex. The world of Dune--and the universe of Dune, are the primary reason for reading that book. Those "characters" are amazing.

And that, in the end, might be the best tip for creating of a setting, be it a law office or planet--think of it as another character.

 

[Verdad]

But the main question is about why there is no essay on how to build a world. And the answer to that is amply shown by Stella. Most erotic stories take place in the here and now and readers can easily fill in the blanks. What's more, building the world is very easy when everyone shares the same references. I can say, "They stopped at a MacDonalds" and even someone from India reading my story will know what I mean. I don't have to explain what a MacDonalds is as I would if I were creating a sci-fi world and said, "They entered Xzy's..."

What you need to do, punkreader, is check out some sci-fi story site--or historical story sites. That is where you'll find yourself drowning in essays on how to world-build. And I mean really world build. A sci-fi writer may well start with the solar system. How many planets? What kind of sun? How big is the planet? Gravity? Water world or desert world? On and on....and, yes, a sci-fi writer might want to know all that. Or he/she might just want to know what key thing has happened in the history of the city to have gotten it to this point. For example, has the city never gotten over the great war when half of it was demolished to rubble and the invaders took over?

This goes for fantasy stories as well. What level of technology vies with the magic? industrial? Computers? As you can see, one problem with writing an essay on world building is that the topic--if you're not discussing the here and now--is incredibly complex.

So what should you do? (1) Go to sf/fantasy writing sites. (2) There are whole books on the subject--why not get one? (3) quick and dirty tip--focus on theme and mood and the world will come What that means is, if the mood of your story is dark and gloomy, then the world you need can rise out of that. If your story is all about finding faith and religion, then, again, your world can rise up out of that. Rather than building from the solar system up, you can build from the message and feeling of the story you're trying to tell.

Long-and-short: most likely if you can do it quick and dirty (meaning you're in the here and now) you don't need an essay to help you build your world. If you can't do it quick and dirty, if it's sci-fi or fantasy...then a mere essay is not going to be enough. You really need a book on this admittedly fascinating topic.

Well said, and I’d add just one thing. World building (for a sci-fi story, not world building as an activity immanent to writing) means more work behind the scene, but it’s a mistake to think all of it makes it into the text.

The comments about it ‘taking lots of space’ seem to confuse the inside view (the time the writer may spend scrawling maps and pondering relations) and the actual text, in which the results will be used but not simply presented or explained.

Unless one is reading old pulps, sci-fi stories rarely waste time on stating we’re in a such and such world, the socio-political situation is so and so, the people do x and y for a living, etc. The characters are rather thrown into the world and made to interact with it; they do go to XYZ with no more fuss and explanation than they’d go to McD’s. However strange the world, its rules are left to inference as far as possible and unfold before us simultaneously with the plot.

Heinlein’s claim to fame probably rests more securely on the fact that he was among the first to write like this for sci-fi mags than it does on what he wrote. Nowadays, though, a reader expects a sci-fi world to be treated with the same matter-of-factness as ‘our’ world.

 

[3113]

Who's point of view?

Well said, and I’d add just one thing. World building (for a sci-fi story, not world building as an activity immanent to writing) means more work behind the scene, but it’s a mistake to think all of it makes it into the text.

An excellent point. And often ignored--and one can understand why. If a writer spends that much time creating this playground, then he's going to want to show it off and probably think everyone wants to play in every part of it just like he does. Like Bronzeage's friend there, writers often miss the fact that they're slowing down the story, interrupting the action or overshadowing the characters with all their in-depth information on such playgrounds I do it myself, and often get unfairly cranky with editors who say, "do we really need to know all this?' I get cranky because any editor who says that to me is usually right and I know it. grumble, grumble, grumble know-it-alls....

Heinlein’s claim to fame probably rests more securely on the fact that he was among the first to write like this for sci-fi mags

True again! Heinlein completely changed sci-fi writing from this: "As you know, I'm about to shoot the alien with this plasma gun which works by heating up the electrons of common table salt to a thousand degrees which leads to a chemical reaction that...." to "the door dilated." The later being one of his most famous lines and a great example of world building. He shows us what the door does (rather than telling us what it will do, why and how as in the former example), and in doing so puts us instantly in a different world.

And the lesson is that while the writer may need to know why/how those doors open and close like that rather than, say, parting in half or sliding or rising, we readers don't need to know how/why. We just need to see them do it. A writer always needs to know more than the reader about their setting.

Heinlein "the door dilated" also puts us in that world by indicating that the person going through that door takes such things for granted. Whether or not the person knows why the doors do that or how is immaterial to him. This is what doors do. Which, perhaps, is another lesson for our non-existent setting essay: if a character lives in that world then they take it for granted. Only something out of place or brand new will stand out to them. So, unless the character is a stranger in a strange land (Heinlein joke there), the writer should make the setting feel like no big deal. Not precious nor special nor unique however unique it is.

Which for erotic fiction could be distilled down to: To the Madame, the whore house is home; to the virgin boy there for the first time, it's another planet. What is said about a setting, noticed by the characters, changes depending on pov.

 

[Firebrain]

3113--yes, you'd think contemporary world-building would be obvious...but reams of bad fiction say that it isn't. There are plenty of essays and articles on the subject but they tend to be referred to as building a setting, or giving the setting a character of its own. World-building, as a term, does seem to be associated with speculative fiction.

 

[3113]

Personality

3113--yes, you'd think contemporary world-building would be obvious...but reams of bad fiction say that it isn't.

Well, but then you also get BronzeAge's buddy there who still fails at his stories even after going above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to world-building. Obviously, creating a well-researched setting, putting a lot of time and effort into it, won't save a story in-and-of itself.

And research in-and-of itself won't automatically make the setting capture the reader's imagination either. This doesn't apply to just erotica, but to use erotica as an example: I remember reading a story about a pair of ice skaters. The research was fine--accurate naming of the jumps and turns they did, the cold wintery day, etc. But the ice skating setting was dull as dishwater, more like a painted backdrop than anything real. And then, of course, our ice skaters go inside and have sex. And at that point, they could have been skiers or snowboarders or business people or tree trimmers. The only real setting--the frozen pond on which they skated, vanishes and comes to nothing.

This is where we get to the real trick in creating a successful setting--how to make sure the reader feels like they are there and that it matters to the story. Research and accuracy in the details will only carry the author so far. It can still come across as dull, dull, dull if there's only facts to the setting but no personality. And if it fails to make any difference to what the characters do or who they are--or how they have sex, come to that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

A young woman of my acquaintance wrote an epic love story, in which one character started out with nothing, and the other character gave everything-- and I do mean everything, starting with a better bed (researched and lovingly described) to a set of Samurai Swords (and that episode detailed ALL the particulars about samurai swordly tradition and forging, not to mention how to eat miso soup) to a cappuchino maker (in which we learned why brass makers are better than others and which manufacturer makes the best ones), a rose garden, (how to raise them indoors), and on and on...

When the wanting character was discovered to be dyslexic, the writer provided so much info that I was able to suggest some treatments to my son's oculist.