Butch lesbians...

[londonsparkles]

... I don't get it. I'm totally for expressing yourself but I don't get the bull-dyke look. I like my girls to look like girls, and I'm all for a tomboyish look but not the buzzcut and boycut jeans... And it really frustrates me that because I'm a girly girl and like to get dressed up in heels and a skirt to go out people automatically assume I'm straight; I've been refused entry to gay bars for not "looking gay". My main issue is that all the pin up girls in lesbian magazines, most of the women on The L Word and Lip Service are femme girls and everyone finds them attractive... So why dress and walk and talk like a bloke if you want a girl who likes girls to find you attractive?? I don't mean this in a rude way, I'm genuinely curious...

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't understand why bars keep you out for looking too straight. In my world gay is what you ARE-- or not-- not what you look like.

So why dress and walk and talk like a bloke if you want a girl who likes girls to find you attractive?

Well actually, I dress and act butch because I want to attract women who like butches. It works real well for me.

I've met plenty women who don't like masculine women. I'm not too terribly hurt by it, any more than I would be if someone only wanted to meet blonds. To each her own.

BTW, I take it this thread is in response to the butch women thread below? And you didn't want to be rude and post in that thread? Honestly, I am so impressed with your tact, Miss Sparkle! You're a better woman than I am in that respect.

 

[londonsparkles]

I don't understand either. But in London if you don't have cropped hair then you just must be straight, apparently. It's fine now because I have membership to the main gay bars but I still get apprehended and told "you do know this is a gay bar" and interrogated on when and where I got my membership... It's ridiculous. And then when I'm actually inside, I'll be asked repeatedly if I'm straight. Or I'll get hit on by the straight men who have found their way in. It's stupid because if I tie my hair up and wear more boyish clothes, I have no trouble whatsoever. Drives me insane.

 

[Safe_Bet]

That's okay, I don't get how women can stand to wear heels, so I guess we're even!

Your comment did raise a couple of questions in my mind, however:

1. How long have you self identified as a lesbian? The reason I ask is your question seems odd for somebody who has been in the life for more than a couple of months.

2. Why don't you think that there is a sliding femme to butch scale like the K scale? I'm asking this because, at least as far as I've seen (all across the States and Canada) there is a HUGE range. For example my late wife was pretty damn femme, I'm pretty androg and as Stella said she's pretty butch)

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think, Sparkle, that you've come up against the minority need for safety and identification.

I totally admit it, if you don't ping my gaydar, I'm not going to trust you in my night time habitat. I've been attacked before.

Even femme lesbians don't want to hit on a straight woman even by accident. And no lesbian wants to end up being some straight girl's experiment just because she's bi-curious one drunken night.

So, yeah. make a little bit of an effort, for the sake of your sisters. Dress in a way that screams "I'm a lesbian and I know how to show it." Leave the conservative, "straight" seeming attire for after you've gotten to know your friend.

That would be my advice, anyway...

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I kinda dig what you're saying, Sparkles, but then again I self identify as soft butch, boi, Daddi and I am NOT overly attracted to Femme women. I like my women like me~with tons of swagger, not a lot of girly ways (except for when we are both naked and panting heavy), more comfortable in boots and baggy jeans then dresses and heels.

I guess it is a personal preference all the way around. It does suck that because you are very femme, most places mistake you for straight. That doesn't mean that you should knock a boi for being a boi. Just means that some women are way more comfortable dressing the way they feel inside. For me~it's a matter of some pride that I am blessed with mega curves but I boi up VERY well.

Each woman gets comfortable in her own skin, her own way. You like being a woman. So do I. But when I am doing my normal day to day, I look very andro and don't give two farts who sees me for woman or boi. I KNOW I am a woman. I don't want to BE a man but the mannerisms, the way I carry myself, all of those things? Are part and parcel of what makes me, ME. And I am sure that these things are true for the majority of butch females as well. (Bois, Daddies, Studs, whatever you wanna call em)

 

[MMMad]

I completely understand what you mean and have been puzzled by this for the longest time. I would not call myself overtly feminine, but I am a woman and I pretty much "look like one", I do wear mostly casual clothes like jeans and converse, but I am not unknown to wear a skirt and stuff like that.

I'm attracted pretty much exclusively to feminine women and by that I don't mean to say they're Paris Hilton feminine, just normal type of femininity - which in my universe means I am attracted to straight women because I just don't come across women who are lesbian and feminine. I don't have a problem with butch women, they can dress and behave however feels right for them, I'm just not attracted to them.

It feels that I am not on the radar of lesbians at all though. I do perfectly with men, but for the most part I couldn't care less about them. Sometimes I will sleep with men though because I want sex and only men are available. Maybe there are plenty other lesbians who don't look like the typical lesbian like myself and we just don't see each other in the crowd or something... but I'm getting a bit desperate.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Sometimes I will sleep with men though because I want sex and only men are available...

Honey, a "lesbian" that regularly "sometimes sleeps with men" is called a bisexual. Just sayin. ::eye roll::

That also might be why a lot of us lesbians (who by definition DON'T sleep with men EVER) don't sexually acknowledge your existence because a lot of chose not to be with or deal with bi chicks for a variety of reasons. (and that, as I said previously, would have included my late wife who was a skirt and Feragamo wearing gold star femme, so it's not just the butchy chicks that feel that way).

P.S. And that is also a hard rep to get rid of even after you DO stop sleeping with dudes, BTW.

 

[londonsparkles]

Which brings up another question... Why is everyone so wary of bi girls? Personally I best identify as pansexual, because I'm attracted to "people" it just happens that 90% of those people happen to be girls and I've never slept with or had a relationship with a guy so I usually just say I'm gay to avoid the deep debate and the fact I wouldn't get taken seriously if I said I was bi.

 

[londonsparkles]

That's okay, I don't get how women can stand to wear heels, so I guess we're even!

Your comment did raise a couple of questions in my mind, however:

1. How long have you self identified as a lesbian? The reason I ask is your question seems odd for somebody who has been in the life for more than a couple of months.

2. Why don't you think that there is a sliding femme to butch scale like the K scale? I'm asking this because, at least as far as I've seen (all across the States and Canada) there is a HUGE range. For example my late wife was pretty damn femme, I'm pretty androg and as Stella said she's pretty butch)

1) Since I was 16. So well over 4 years. I've never understood it and I don't want to change the way I dress just to conform.

2) I know there's a sliding scale and each to her own and I have plenty friends who are butch and that's fine... It just frustrates me because I'll see femme girls with their partners and wonder why the hell there seem to be no single femmes left in the world! That's pretty much all it boils down to

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Which brings up another question... Why is everyone so wary of bi girls? Personally I best identify as pansexual, because I'm attracted to "people" it just happens that 90% of those people happen to be girls and I've never slept with or had a relationship with a guy so I usually just say I'm gay to avoid the deep debate and the fact I wouldn't get taken seriously if I said I was bi.

This is just my take on it, YMMV. I consider myself queer. I have been with men in my past but I doubt very seriously that I will be with a male in the future. I still feel odd saying I am lesbian.

Most dyed in the wool lesbianns are not the least bit attracted to, nor do they want, anything with a penis. If that lesbian female has sex with a bi/pan female~ that lesbian is taking a penis by proxy. For the most part~that is a disgusting thought.

There is also some stigma attached to being the girl that can slip in and out of the closet at will. What real lesbian would ever be completely comfortable in those circumstances?

I have spent 20 plus years in and round the lesbian community~as a bi girl and a queer female. My people know me but it took years of listening to them diss the bi girls before i figured out that most women who love women dont want to even THINK about a man with their girl. Thus the problem.

 

[Sasha25]

I consider myself a lesbian, and have done so for about 6 years now, but for some reason I don't want to let go of the possibility of sleeping with anyone. I don't find myself attracted men much at all, except for that odd "he
s beautiful in a model/arty/ Michaelangelo's David" kind of way. I think, though, I'd be doing myself a disservice by saying absolutely no to anything.

Will I end up with a woman? Mostly likely. 99% likely. But I won't refuse the possibility of being with a man, or anyone of any part of any scale.

I'm femme (not overly, but I love to dress it up) and single, and frankly I'm drawn to butch women. Do I understand why I'm drawn to butch women and not men? No. But I don't think I need to understand it, I just accept it.

In any case, I'm only 25 and I have a lot to explore yet. I'm still growing a lot sexually, so who knows what I'll like 5 years from now!

 

[girlsmiley]

Hi sparkles!

I have the long hair, I wear skirts and heels etc as well.
I don't go to many gay bars. Actually it's been ages since I went to a gay bar and even then -- here in Sydney they'd never asked if you were gay or not.
That's so flippin rude...

I know this might sound lame but,
Try seeing it in a positive way.
You're a femme and you're hot! LOL

You're not alone! There are PLENTY of femme women out there, they're just harder to spot, and that's why I think Stella maybe onto something.
I know this may sound terrible... but if you dress like a lesbian you will hook up, (god knows i look damn fine in a pair of jeans...)

OR, take control. Dress up as you normally would and make the first move

In the meantime have fun finding the right kind of woman for you!

 

[londonsparkles]

Then I'd feel like I was trying to attract people under false pretences... I've tried dressing down when I go out though and it still doesn't work! Apparently I just give off innate straight vibes =/ Maybe I should get that "nobody knows I'm a lesbian" t-shirt haha.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Then I'd feel like I was trying to attract people under false pretences... I've tried dressing down when I go out though and it still doesn't work! Apparently I just give off innate straight vibes =/ Maybe I should get that "nobody knows I'm a lesbian" t-shirt haha.

It's not about dressing down, its about not dressing straight.

I'm not sure how to explain this to you though, since every area's women have developed their own signals, but-- I bet if you got ahold of a femme lesbian to go through your closet, she' be saying "straight-- straight-- that could work-- straight...." as she went through your wardrobe.

It's one of those things that, until you learn it, it's invisible.

 

[Safe_Bet]

It's not about dressing down, its about not dressing straight.

I'm not sure how to explain this to you though, since every area's women have developed their own signals, but-- I bet if you got ahold of a femme lesbian to go through your closet, she' be saying "straight-- straight-- that could work-- straight...." as she went through your wardrobe.

It's one of those things that, until you learn it, it's invisible.

You might want to lose the Glue On Nails too!

(ha ha, beat'cha to it Stella! . )

 

[thegrandchef]

I wonder if there's a correlation with "butchness" and the more politically-aligned lesbians, political or social... who reject common conceptions of womanhood, and use their appearance to make their statement.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I wonder if there's a correlation with "butchness" and the more politically-aligned lesbians, political or social... who reject common conceptions of womanhood, and use their appearance to make their statement.

Nope. It's simply that the shoes are more comfortable and you don't need to worry about getting a "run" in a pair of Dickies. ::eyeroll::

(Hint: I think your getting lesbianism and feminism kinda confused. Some of the biggest basest butch dykes and some of the most radical feminists in the world wear skirts and heels.)

 

[MMMad]

Honey, a "lesbian" that regularly "sometimes sleeps with men" is called a bisexual. Just sayin. ::eye roll::

That also might be why a lot of us lesbians (who by definition DON'T sleep with men EVER) don't sexually acknowledge your existence because a lot of chose not to be with or deal with bi chicks for a variety of reasons. (and that, as I said previously, would have included my late wife who was a skirt and Feragamo wearing gold star femme, so it's not just the butchy chicks that feel that way).

P.S. And that is also a hard rep to get rid of even after you DO stop sleeping with dudes, BTW.

Trust me, if I was a bisexual, I would identify as such. I have only been in love with women, I can only truly be attracted to a woman and only a woman can make me come. To name a few. However, every once in a while I have a choice to make, go without sex for like a year or shag a dude. I regard shagging a dude pretty much as physical exercise. Also, it's not like I go telling everyone around it, do I? I doubt lesbians would know I sometimes sleep with men just by looking at me, would they?

Straight women sometimes sleep with lesbians and a lot of them still identify as straight afterwards, you know what I mean?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Trust me, if I was a bisexual, I would identify as such. I have only been in love with women, I can only truly be attracted to a woman and only a woman can make me come. To name a few. However, every once in a while I have a choice to make, go without sex for like a year or shag a dude. I regard shagging a dude pretty much as physical exercise. Also, it's not like I go telling everyone around it, do I? I doubt lesbians would know I sometimes sleep with men just by looking at me, would they?

Straight women sometimes sleep with lesbians and a lot of them still identify as straight afterwards, you know what I mean?

Of course we would know. Lesbians see all and know all. You'd know that yourself except you sleep with dudes...

You can CALL yourself a lesbian, a bull dyke or a flaming bull frog for that matter but that doesn't change the definition of the term. Bottom line is that a lesbian doesn't sleep with men. (IMO)

Even though I'd sooner sew myself shut than let some dude stick his dick in me ever again, someday I might change my mind (HEY! It could happen!) and fuck some dude. THEN I wouldn't be a lesbian . Get it? Fuck a dude, lose your lesbian card. We don't get to pick and choose the meaning of a definition.

BTW, you know what we call a hetero chick that sleeps with a lesbian???? You got it = BI!

 

[Safe_Bet]

Then I'd feel like I was trying to attract people under false pretences... I've tried dressing down when I go out though and it still doesn't work! Apparently I just give off innate straight vibes =/ Maybe I should get that "nobody knows I'm a lesbian" t-shirt haha.

Ya know when you dissemble and tell a lesbian your're "gay", when you know that you're Bi... THOSE are false pretenses.

BTW, for me anyways, what comes into play is the "intent". You said you never have HAD a relationship with a guy or ever slept with one. The way you phrased it would lead me to believe that you WOULD if the right opportunity presented itself. FOR ME, I would find that a completely unacceptable ouotlook from a chick and I'd have nothing to do with her.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Of course we would know. Lesbians see all and know all. You'd know that yourself except you sleep with dudes...

ROFLMAOOOOOOO AHAHAHAHA!!!!

I scared the whole neighborhood, I laughed so loud. Shit. Too funny!

*wiping tears out of my eyes*

Hahaha...

Still laughing...

And, yeah, I agree. I CALL myself a butch dyke Bisexual. I would NEVER call myself a Lesbian. And I would always let a gold star lady know that I do men sometimes, if we were about to hook up.

Who needs the aggravation when she finds out? Not me, and not her.

 

[girlsmiley]

It's not about dressing down, its about not dressing straight.

I'm not sure how to explain this to you though, since every area's women have developed their own signals, but-- I bet if you got ahold of a femme lesbian to go through your closet, she' be saying "straight-- straight-- that could work-- straight...." as she went through your wardrobe.

It's one of those things that, until you learn it, it's invisible.

i'd love for you to go through my wardrobe, you sexy ...



sparkles,

IF a woman made an effort to dress different, just to get into my knickers, i'd be SO COOL with that

 

[londonsparkles]

What does "dressing straight" mean then?? And @safe_bet, glue-on nails are icky... Just for the record And tonight for example... I was out in a gay bar, in Doc Martens, leggings and a t-shirt, not dressed for anything in particular, and only had a straight guy hit on me and the girls I saw all thought I was straight... Honestly don't get it!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Whoah.

Maybe we need pictures.

Topless ones.

I don't know what "dressing straight" means where you live, though.

I'm thinking that you might-- just maybe-- ignore the butch women that make eyes at you? If the place is full of butch-looking women and you're not responding to the women the place is full of, if you see what I mean..., they might think you are not interested in women. I know that's not your intent. But people do misunderstand.

Try smiling at the softer butches. You know what you get when you take a butch's clothes off? A woman. Boobs and waist and thighs and pussy.. maybe a strapon, but you can talk her out of that too I bet.