How important is poetry?

[twelveoone]

How important is poetry?

Air, water, and food are important, then a whole bunch of other stuff, including urination and defecation. It does outrank smoking and is slightly less polluting. Consider this, if you write more poems then take dumps you just let everyone know you're full of it.

"I want to express myself, let people know how I feel."

Update your status on facebook.

"I want to tell the truth."

Become a mime, they lie too, but nobody listens. It's the old tree falls in the forest thing.

"So and so said my poetry sucks":

It does, so and so does, and you do also. A perfect balance, what could be better?

How can I tell if my poem is even worthy of submitting it to Literotica, which after all is a kind of a dump?

Easy, take your poem put someone's else's name on it, someone you despise, read it as if they wrote it. If it still looks good, take their name off and put yours back on. Hit submit. At least you made a good effort at not fooling yourself.

What happens if a bear eats a poet in the woods?

Ever seen a bear write poetry? No. He shits...

 

[bronzeage]

The conversational format is interesting, but there is a general lack of imagery. It might help if there was some sort of prologue. You could introduce two characters, one a novice and the other a yodaesque poet sage. Don't mix up the word to sound Yodaesque. It could confuse people and they might think you were trying to write Starwars slash fanfic poetry.

Now there is a scary thought.

 

[twelveoone]

The conversational format is interesting, but there is a general lack of imagery. It might help if there was some sort of prologue. You could introduce two characters, one a novice and the other a yodaesque poet sage. Don't mix up the word to sound Yodaesque. It could confuse people and they might think you were trying to write Starwars slash fanfic poetry.

Now there is a scary thought.

Here's something scarier, tell me if you recognize this next one.

 

[twelveoone]

How to tell a bad poem from a good one.

Let's use the old M1 driving analogy.

Suppose you hop in the car, and it's the same old annoying traffic patterns, the same drab colours, and 6 lines in, you realize you are driving to work. Commuting as you've done for years. Ho, ho hum.

That would be a very bad poem.

Suppose you drive though the poem twice and none of the scenery changed.

That is a bad poem.

Now suppose you drive though and not only the scenery changes (which is good) and you also arrive at a different place.

Even better.

Now suppose you drive though, etc., and you decide to pull over, because, well it looks like fun, a pleasant time.

Well, here's one. This guy has never written a "commute" poem, most poets don't, and even a cynical SOB (me) likes it.
So I feel he is underrated as a poet, as his tools are primarily a writer's tools. But what in the grand scheme of things is more important?

I'll let you digest the pleasantness, before I get to the tricky shit.

 

[bronzeage]

You started with tricky shit.

The blackberry poem was fun to write and I wish it really happened. It is a work of complete fiction. There was no barn, no storm, no blackberries, at least all in the same place at the same time. None of it exists, except for the nipples showing through the tshirt. I wish inspiration like that came around more often. It was finished in a very short time. Poems based on my real experiences sometimes take decades to finish. If the pattern holds, in another 10 years, I will take another look at "Crazy Redhead" and produce something which makes people's chins quiver as they fight tears.

My writing reflects the way I think, and I tend to think in complete sentences. I know no reason to chop it up or leave out words to make it more poemy. This leaves me open to the critique of "prose poetry", to which I respond, "yeah?"

If I had more time, I might be able to hammer it all into iambic pentameter and maybe even make it rhyme, but the rent is due and it's enough just to get it down and saved. I firmly believe anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. If the effort is not made, nothing is made. I use prose to entertain people. I use poetry to fuck with their heads. I want the reader to see what I saw and feel what I felt. This is a quantity which cannot be measured with any accuracy, so it's pointless to try. When it works, it works. When it doesn't, there is always another 10 years to try again.

 

[butters]

sigh




i could sit here all day reading you two.


yay. i'm a believer.

 

[Angeline]

Poetry enriches my life, whether I'm reading it or writing it. It connects me to my feelings and memories. And it doesn't really matter to me how others respond to poetry, my own or anyone else's: I'm just concerned with what it does for me. Poetry, and literature for that matter, have always been a touchstone for me.

 

[bronzeage]

Poetry enriches my life, whether I'm reading it or writing it. It connects me to my feelings and memories. And it doesn't really matter to me how others respond to poetry, my own or anyone else's: I'm just concerned with what it does for me. Poetry, and literature for that matter, have always been a touchstone for me.

This is a perfectly good reason to write poetry, or write anything else.

For myself, poetry and other writing is a utility. I want it to do something.

 

[twelveoone]

You started with tricky shit.

The blackberry poem was fun to write and I wish it really happened. It is a work of complete fiction. There was no barn, no storm, no blackberries, at least all in the same place at the same time. None of it exists, except for the nipples showing through the tshirt. I wish inspiration like that came around more often. It was finished in a very short time. Poems based on my real experiences sometimes take decades to finish. If the pattern holds, in another 10 years, I will take another look at "Crazy Redhead" and produce something which makes people's chins quiver as they fight tears.

My writing reflects the way I think, and I tend to think in complete sentences. I know no reason to chop it up or leave out words to make it more poemy. This leaves me open to the critique of "prose poetry", to which I respond, "yeah?"

If I had more time, I might be able to hammer it all into iambic pentameter and maybe even make it rhyme, but the rent is due and it's enough just to get it down and saved. I firmly believe anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. If the effort is not made, nothing is made. I use prose to entertain people. I use poetry to fuck with their heads. I want the reader to see what I saw and feel what I felt. This is a quantity which cannot be measured with any accuracy, so it's pointless to try. When it works, it works. When it doesn't, there is always another 10 years to try again.

No, Bronze, it wasn't that tricky. It was good, as far as it happening, it did, I saw it. Without feeling like a voyeur.

It did do something.

Here is something else you did, why it happened.
The focal point is "I", tricky thing handling that. Now the couple's focal point was blackberries, you encased the poem with them, people should look at that, the blackberries where all over the place, that shifts the focal point, where the "I" is downplayed. Allows the reader in.
This was poetry. Some of the middle could have been smoothed, so what. One of the best, probably the most accessible, of the better poems.

As far as fucking with people's heads, and tricky shit. I'll show you what the green mountain guy did in his latest. Grammatical illusions, straight from Shakespeare; only GM paints two pictures like one of those 3D Jesuses. I shook my head when I saw it.

 

[Angeline]

This is a perfectly good reason to write poetry, or write anything else.

For myself, poetry and other writing is a utility. I want it to do something.

Like 1201 just said, I think you achieve that. The best poems "do something" to the reader. If I write a poem and get feedback that the reader felt something (whatever that feeling may be), I know I'm on the right track. Your blackberries poem did that for me, and I know when I'm on to something in a poem that it will likely have that effect.

 

[butters]

No, Bronze, it wasn't that tricky. It was good, as far as it happening, it did, I saw it. Without feeling like a voyeur.

It did do something.

Here is something else you did, why it happened.
The focal point is "I", tricky thing handling that. Now the couple's focal point was blackberries, you encased the poem with them, people should look at that, the blackberries where all over the place, that shifts the focal point, where the "I" is downplayed. Allows the reader in.
This was poetry. Some of the middle could have been smoothed, so what. One of the best, probably the most accessible, of the better poems.

As far as fucking with people's heads, and tricky shit. I'll show you what the green mountain guy did in his latest. Grammatical illusions, straight from Shakespeare; only GM paints two pictures like one of those 3D Jesuses. I shook my head when I saw it.

*nods*

lots of.

like a damned nodding dog.


and this is why gm's got my vote as most influential poet in my books.

 

[twelveoone]

Like 1201 just said, I think you achieve that. The best poems "do something" to the reader. If I write a poem and get feedback that the reader felt something (whatever that feeling may be), I know I'm on the right track. Your blackberries poem did that for me, and I know when I'm on to something in a poem that it will likely have that effect.

A little counter intuitive reasoning, Bronze's poem works (i.e. does something for the reader), because Bronze put the effort into the poem. He had fun with it, he knows a few tricks, the encasing (or framing) is exactly like jd4george's. Blackberries instead of wine, this sets up a tension with the focus shift, jd4 breaks it, because he sets up another, by really talking about something else, bronze finds every trick he can, because he is talking about blackberries, is is used as a noun an adjective and as a color contrast.
Another thing to think of is, how much time is spent on Romeo and Juliet in the play of the same name. They are not straight drive troughs.
This is an intelligent experienced writer. Now the funny thing is part of what is written is unconscious, part of what is read is unconscious. I'm sure some people liked the poem, without exactly knowing why. But I am good at what I do, which is not micro poetry.
Now, as for you, your latest, which are getting very interesting, the cemetery poem, as with all real poems, can be read in more than one way. I read it in a way that I would would write it and I found something I've never ever tried, and I'm very high risk. Where is the focal point? Here? Now that still unsettles me. Of course it can be read in a linear fashion, still.

 

[twelveoone]

Now does anyone want to read this
and comment, before I drive up onto M12 (like that chippy?)

How important is poetry, well for some a little more important than others.

May Day question, what was on the side of the truck in the movie, authours?

 

[twelveoone]

Now does anyone want to read this
and comment, before I drive up onto M12 (like that chippy?)

How important is poetry, well for some a little more important than others.

May Day question, what was on the side of the truck in the movie, authours?

Poetguy?
this is duly punctuated
wasn't that a complaint of yours?
This looks less like Empson, more like Lakeoff

 

[twelveoone]

Before we get into GM's heart of darkness.
Every poet and his son tells you avoid abstraction, but never seem to hit what is the probable real reason. It has become a truism; here is Senna from a different thread:

"The next Ezra Pound's advice is: live in a fear of abstraction. Things is abstract, boring, it's junk, it stands for poetic impotence."

Here is what I think, in most cases

the mind follows the eye

the secondary drop down is the ear

the trickiest is the nose, a smell is the most evocative of memory, but memories are individual, so what you evoke may not what you want.

touch and taste, well they are intimate.
Think again about "Blackberry Sunday"
OK now what is the title of GM's poem?

By now you should be starting to see

1.) that I am a devil
2.) I just supplanted the poetic order of things

Sight above sound

Well I didn't, you can thank among others Gutenberg, ee cummings, literacy, among others.
Fact is most poetry now is read, not spoken, some poetic techniques are specifically for the eye, not the ear. The organization itself is primarily the eye.

BTW, I introduced a logic fault above, with "good" and "bad", they are subjective value judgments. (mine) I think "Blackberry Sunday" is a damn good poem and have a set of specifics as to why. It is hoped that some new writers and poets will see some of them to become better writers and readers.

Here is another one, I want you to drive through (a score of 3.44??)

Fred's Dead
From another of Literotica's underrated poets.
Consider the "I" and the focal point.

if you wish you can compare it to the fucking H, that sits in New Poems.

 

[butters]

Now does anyone want to read this
and comment, before I drive up onto M12 (like that chippy?)

How important is poetry, well for some a little more important than others.

May Day question, what was on the side of the truck in the movie, authours?

i ain't driven nowheres, nohows, though it may appear so to the casual observer. apologies for my lack of timely presence - work eats most my time, and i need my poet head on to understand a quarter of what you show us. sunday ... i will do stuff here sunday, and you ain't the devil. though you are pretty cool for a hot guy.

which film?

 

[bogusagain]

How important is poetry?

It's an illness, something that has to be done, whether it's reading or writing. Failure to feed the addiction causes psychological breakdown.

Like any art, poetry is totally and utterly pointless but without it, life would be so impoverished.

Despite what neo-liberal politicians and economists would have us believe, life is more than money.

Fiat poetry beats fiat money any day of the week.

 

[butters]

It's an illness, something that has to be done, whether it's reading or writing. Failure to feed the addiction causes psychological breakdown.

Like any art, poetry is totally and utterly pointless but without it, life would be so impoverished.

Despite what neo-liberal politicians and economists would have us believe, life is more than money.

Fiat poetry beats fiat money any day of the week.

pretty much so, for most involved ... which is why i'm itchy having not written for weeks nor had proper time to read and comment.

 

[twelveoone]

Before we get into GM's heart of darkness.
...

Here is another one, I want you to drive through (a score of 3.44??)

Fred's Dead
From another of Literotica's underrated poets.
Consider the "I" and the focal point.

if you wish you can compare it to the fucking H, that sits in New Poems.

OK, what I am going do to do, is introduce some counter-intuitive reasoning, and answer Bogus' statement. Both Bronze and Tess are real. These are real poems. They wrote them for themselves, however they avoid "the just express yourself" syndrome. Both poems have a heavy "I" component (they have to), but the focus is deflected from the "I" unto the story. It is very easy for a reader to walk in, to see and experience what they do.
If you are a new writer, or even a "poet", these are two people to pay attention to. Neither one does anything EXTRA ordinary, they do Enough in service of the poems. That's it.
Now what Bronze has managed to do has created something romantic and heroic (small case) which is rare in this day. Tess has managed to create a perfectly sympathetic character, also rare. They didn't try. Got that, no pathetic ploys.
This is my value judgment. Why should you consider it? It is coming from one of the most cynical SOB's that ever walked.
Bronze and tess, I applaud you.


tess, what you think is a mistake, actually works better, you might want to rethink the words languidly and certainly lustily in context

 

[twelveoone]

Continuing with with the ol' driving analogy, suppose you hop the car, and you wind up in place where you don't know where you're at, stuff is happening, that you'll never figure out.

This is one of my favourite poems. I don't recommend trying it, but this guy outdid me.
Sight of Hand Trick

by Bill Dada

and it is a sequeway....as in what follows

because I am a
and I am very good at what I do

which is drive a truck, or lorrie if you prefer
The future is up!
You're behind...
Oh lawdy mama here come de demolition man

 

[bogusagain]

These are real poems.[/B] They wrote them for themselves, however they avoid "the just express yourself" syndrome.

I can readily accept that just expressing oneself is not enough, well, it's pretty pointless or as pointless as masturbating in the procreation stakes. One has to consider ones potential audience before putting anything out there. But surely, most of us just turn barren earth for the most part in our efforts to create something. However, I think as Orwell pointed out (from the text you posted), there is something selfish in writing, some need to cheat death (if I remember rightly), a need to avoid anoymity that more balanced people readily accept with age.

Maybe my memory is being a little liberal. or maybe not.

 

[twelveoone]

greenmountaineer is generally regarded as one of the more intelligent, thoughtful writers around here. I'm not going to disabuse people of that notion. I agree. Sometimes, you can be too clever. It backfires.

What he does is introduces (by grammar) a (grimmer) false path for the unwary, an image is created that really isn't there, you have to keep going back to get a truer one.

My driving analogy, I hop in the car, see some unpleasantness, but may want to stay, but I forgot my wallet (the something the little girls has found), I drive back to pick it up, and realize it don't matter. (it's unresolved).

A Girl and her Dog on Skunk Hollow Road
check out the grammar tricks, you can look at my comment, there may be more.

Now with any poetry, there is always more than meets the eye, otherwise it really isn't poetry. Even for highly linear, but especially for referential (off the page) writers.

The title "A Girl and her Dog on Skunk Hollow Road" seems to be saying something to me
personally
figure you guys could use a little spice in your life
after eating skunks off the road
the hollow part

could this be prompted by snakes as in deliberate ambiguity, but in both ways strengthens the "twisty thoughts" of which, if I read Confucius, I should not have.

An answer, and earlier German philosopher. Hegel.

 

[twelveoone]

I can readily accept that just expressing oneself is not enough, well, it's pretty pointless or as pointless as masturbating in the procreation stakes. One has to consider ones potential audience before putting anything out there. But surely, most of us just turn barren earth for the most part in our efforts to create something. However, I think as Orwell pointed out (from the text you posted), there is something selfish in writing, some need to cheat death (if I remember rightly), a need to avoid anoymity that more balanced people readily accept with age.

Maybe my memory is being a little liberal. or maybe not.

One of the things that must be learned is how to avoid the "I", most poets learn that.
As far as the "audience" there is a difference between leading and pandering, most poets will try to lead. Some are very selective as to who they want for an audience.
Over in New Poems, it is very easy to spot the panderers, the easy ploys. The "death" the "fuck me" the "I have a disease".

 

[bronzeage]

One of the things that must be learned is how to avoid the "I", most poets learn that.
As far as the "audience" there is a difference between leading and pandering, most poets will try to lead. Some are very selective as to who they want for an audience.
Over in New Poems, it is very easy to spot the panderers, the easy ploys. The "death" the "fuck me" the "I have a disease".

I understand only half of what you post, and the "I" is in the dark half. Could you explain what you mean?

 

[twelveoone]

Go over to new poems, at least a third scream I or me. In yours, the focus is on the story. Allows me as a reader to become "Bronze". Wasn't bad either.
Then the damn poem ended.
I don't care as a reader what Bronze feels, I want to feel as if I am Bronze.
Probably explains why some don't like mine, they don't want to feel
that.
So far I've never taken anyone to hell,
yet.