Socialism

[JenAltArmy]

While that almost (depending on circumstances) certainly would be the policy socialists would prefer, it would, as an instance of government intervention in the economy, be neither more nor less "socialist" than if the Feds sided with management and helped it union-bust -- of which latter intervention there are many examples in American history.

the reason there is a problem with the economy, is due to socialist crap from government. government isn't the solution, government is the problem.

if you want more government go to France, or China. but would you bitch about then, lack of freedom?

 

[Louise_Loves]

Socialism is a system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. In Marxist theory, it is a natural evolutionary step between capitalism and communism, when the proletariat have imperfectly implemented their collectivist principles.

A socialist is any person who believes in such a system, or places membership in an organization that espouses those principles.

Bernie Sanders, Senator from Vermont, is a Socialist.

 

[KingOrfeo]

The reason is because she was an individualist...

"I am an advocate of laissez-faire capitalism, of individual rights -- there are no others -- of individual freedom. It is on this ground that I oppose any doctrine which proposes the sacrifice of the individual to the collective, such as communism, socialism, the welfare state. fascism, Nazism and modern liberalism. I oppose the conservatives on the same ground. The conservatives are advocates of a mixed economy and of a welfare state. Their difference from the liberals is only one of degree, not of principle."

OK, I get where she's coming from (one always does, with Rand), but, how does what she's saying there apply to the Libertarians?

Any collectives' primary threat is the individual...

...that's why "the common good" is so essential to socialists.

The upholding of "the common good" at the expense of the individual...

...you are definitely in your realm, King0.

Isn't "the common good" essential to any political ideology or theory of good government?

 

[KingOrfeo]

the reason there is a problem with the economy, is due to socialist crap from government. government isn't the solution, government is the problem.

if you want more government go to France, or China. but would you bitch about then, lack of freedom?

If you want less government go to Somalia. The economy ain't great, either. Look around the world: Wherever you find a strong economy, you will find a strong government. (The reverse is not necessarily true.)

 

[eyer]

OK, I get where she's coming from (one always does, with Rand), but, how does what she's saying there apply to the Libertarians?

See if you can make the connection here:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians

Isn't "the common good" essential to any political ideology or theory of good government?

"the common good" is purely subjective, as no true definition of it is available politically except by force of government (whether that rule is by majority or tyrant).

The only way a "common good" can be striven for objectively is through the sincere reverence of individual liberty.

The right to life...

The right to liberty...

The right to one's own labor...

...unless you believe that individual men are better off controlled by others.

Then...

...by forcefully limiting individual liberty, you can devise whatever the collective will accept as "the common good", at whatever time.

There is no finer "common good" than individuals freely living their lives violating no individual rights of others, and forcefully not compelled to live "the common good" others envision by violating the individual rights of their fellow citizens.

Government's business re: "the common good" is to defend and protect the individual liberty of each citizen...

...that is a government of the people, for the people, and by the people.

Any government/people that/who doesn't/don't revere individual liberty above all else - especially the subjective "common good" - is/are simply socialist.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Then every society ever is fundamentally socialist and the rest is just niggling at the details.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Then every society ever is fundamentally socialist and the rest is just niggling at the details.

Yup.

And some people ***koffkoffkoffpussycrybabyloserwhiningbirtherrepublicanassholeskoffkoffkoff*** just up and decided to make a stink about it now as if the socialist elements of our society that we've been living with forever with no complaints just started.

Gee, I wonder why?

 

[HAL_9000]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, yet, or not;

But the whole issue seems to be altrusim vs. egocentrism.

That is : me against everything.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

This post is worth a whole thread or three. Thank you for it. I think where we differ is that I think that "wrongs" can be foreseen in many instances. That's why we have speed limits, laws about toxic substances, laws against ownership of nuclear materials, etc, etc, etc.

Here is what you cannot define: the limit of "some" intervention which is why some becomes more, rather than less because politics is what it is and you don't get reelected by saying everything is hunky-dory and up to date in Kansas City, so the proclivity is towards preventing more and more specious wrongs on every front in order to justify the position held and keep the campaign contributions coming in.

And, that process is not going to be controlled by reason, intellect and fact, but by fear-mongering, demagoguery and a population educated in government schools, which a lot like Parochial Schools, are not going to be too terribly harsh on the motives of their founders...

And again, until you find me a better word for the altruists collective, then I'll use it, until then, I'm sticking with Socialist, because it fits so well, so much better than communist, liberal, progressive, pragmatic centrist, or "don't label me."

 

[vrosej10]

Here is what you cannot define: the limit of "some" intervention which is why some becomes more, rather than less because politics is what it is and you don't get reelected by saying everything is hunky-dory and up to date in Kansas City, so the proclivity is towards preventing more and more specious wrongs on every front in order to justify the position held and keep the campaign contributions coming in.

And, that process is not going to be controlled by reason, intellect and fact, but by fear-mongering, demagoguery and a population educated in government schools, which a lot like Parochial Schools, are not going to be too terribly harsh on the motives of their founders...

And again, until you find me a better word for the altruists collective, then I'll use it, until then, I'm sticking with Socialist, because it fits so well, so much better than communist, liberal, progressive, pragmatic centrist, or "don't label me."

You say socialist like it's a bad thing. It seems like an alterna-curse on this board. People seem to forget that they are just expressing opinions here and that not one of us possesses the individual power to enact them or force the others to comply.

'[Thinking is] what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.' ~William James

The above quote sums up what is going on in the majority of the political conversations on this board.

 

[JenAltArmy]

If you want less government go to Somalia. The economy ain't great, either. Look around the world: Wherever you find a strong economy, you will find a strong government. (The reverse is not necessarily true.)

what are you taking about? do you think countries like France have a strong economy? YES or NO

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

You say socialist like it's a bad thing. It seems like an alterna-curse on this board. People seem to forget that they are just expressing opinions here and that not one of us possesses the individual power to enact them or force the others to comply.

'[Thinking is] what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.' ~William James

The above quote sums up what is going on in the majority of the political conversations on this board.

I say Communism like it's a bad thing.

The point is, SOCIALISTS (in America) say Socialist, like it's a bad thing in order to fool people into surrendering Liberty in the name of doing good.

Speed limits? REALLY???

I think I'm the only one in the Boot Heel who pays the least bit of attention to them; I sure as hell ignored them in KANSAS!

 

[JenAltArmy]

Then every society ever is fundamentally socialist and the rest is just niggling at the details.

The problem with socialism is simple, government gone wild. There is no need to be innovative or creative. Creating efficient in human (labor) and money - consumption go out the door.

Under socialism a light bulb will cost $100, why? Simple no competition, and no need to be creative or efficient.
Just that simple




Socialist/socialism is wrong on every level

 

[JenAltArmy]

I say Communism like it's a bad thing.

The point is, SOCIALISTS (in America) say Socialist, like it's a bad thing in order to fool people into surrendering Liberty in the name of doing good.

Speed limits? REALLY???

I think I'm the only one in the Boot Heel who pays the least bit of attention to them; I sure as hell ignored them in KANSAS!

being a Socialist is a bad thing

the founders of our country are rolling over in their grave!!

 

[vrosej10]

I say Communism like it's a bad thing.

The point is, SOCIALISTS (in America) say Socialist, like it's a bad thing in order to fool people into surrendering Liberty in the name of doing good.

Speed limits? REALLY???

I think I'm the only one in the Boot Heel who pays the least bit of attention to them; I sure as hell ignored them in KANSAS!

I actually don't subscribe to communism or socialism for that matter but get called one all the time just because I am left. I frankly think they both fail to account for the rat bastardness of humans. Speed limits are necessary because a lot of humans are too stupid to take care for their own safety let alone others.

 

[JenAltArmy]

I actually don't subscribe to communism or socialism for that matter but get called one all the time just because I am left. I frankly think they both fail to account for the rat bastardness of humans. Speed limits are necessary because a lot of humans are too stupid to take care for their own safety let alone others.

in communism, the rat bastards are all in government only now they can use the power of government to get what they want. bad, bad, bad

 

[Ishmael]

I actually don't subscribe to communism or socialism for that matter but get called one all the time just because I am left. I frankly think they both fail to account for the rat bastardness of humans. Speed limits are necessary because a lot of humans are too stupid to take care for their own safety let alone others.

Speed limits have nothing to do with Socialism, Communism, or Capitalism.

Ishmael

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I actually don't subscribe to communism or socialism for that matter but get called one all the time just because I am left. I frankly think they both fail to account for the rat bastardness of humans. Speed limits are necessary because a lot of humans are too stupid to take care for their own safety let alone others.

Again, speed limits only work for those who are not "too stupid to take care for their own safety let alone others" in as much as they make them feel that in enabling the politician to take a little more Liberty that they have "made a difference."

You can have all the drunk driving laws in the world, and you're still going to get Mel Gibson...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

How about this Perg, a more "classic" definition, "those in favor of an Oligarchy."

Of course, it always begins as an erudite, educated and benevolent Oligarchy of the Enlightened, but it always ends not as the American Revolution, but rather, the French variant...

Then comes the tyrant, and eventually, he is overthrown and you have a narrow window of opportunity in which to return to Republic.

 

[vrosej10]

Again, speed limits only work for those who are not "too stupid to take care for their own safety let alone others" in as much as they make them feel that in enabling the politician to take a little more Liberty that they have "made a difference."

You can have all the drunk driving laws in the world, and you're still going to get Mel Gibson...

i think that your first drink driving offense should be your last. Automatic license cancelation and your car should be seized. That won't stop the problem but it will encourage second thoughts. If you manage to offend again, it should be an automatic jail sentence.

 

[Liar]

Speed limits have nothing to do with Socialism, Communism, or Capitalism.

Ishmael

So, just for the record, Government regulation have nothing to do with Socialism?

 

[JenAltArmy]

So, just for the record, Government regulation have nothing to do with Socialism?

so we have government regulation, and laws...therefore we must have more socialism?

socialism is for quitters, people who are unable to dream, create, or build

are you a quitter?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

i think that your first drink driving offense should be your last. Automatic license cancelation and your car should be seized. That won't stop the problem but it will encourage second thoughts. If you manage to offend again, it should be an automatic jail sentence.

The criminal simply steals a cab.

I am not surprised to see you not much of a fan of property rights...

So, let us look at this problem the same way we do abortion and how often drinking leads to a little "mistake." You really mean to punish Princess for the rest of her life over one little mistake?

 

[vrosej10]

in communism, the rat bastards are all in government only now they can use the power of government to get what they want. bad, bad, bad

Human are heirachical in nature. No matter what you do, government or not, there will always be some who attempt to gain power and control for their own means. Government to some degree regulates some of this behaviour by giving us choice about who will screw us and limits the time they can do it in. Only a fool could believe that removing government is going to get rid of this kind of thing. The only freedom any of us will ever truly have is inside our heads.

 

[JenAltArmy]

Speed limits have nothing to do with Socialism, Communism, or Capitalism.

Ishmael

yes, but we have laws. therefore, we must toss out Capitalism and install a Socilist style government!

just look at the leaders in France, a socialist government and they Rule the earth. oh wait, they suck crap but make good wine.

maybe that is the key for socialism, one has to be drunk 24/7?