"Vanilla Wife Syndrome"

[Pirate_Guy]

I'm curious about how many guys who visit the GLBT forum are victims of what I have officially named "Vanilla Wife Syndrome"?

VWS seems to most commonly afflict mature men whose libidos have stayed the same (or grown) while their wife's has dwindled. Specifically, the typical VWS sufferer is a 40- or 50-something guy whose fantasies and sex drive are stronger than ever but who believes that his spouse is barely interested in anything beyond obligatory, once-a-month, "just stick it in, get it over with and let me watch Leno" intercourse in the good-old missionary position.

Oral? No way. Sexy lingerie? Forget it. Tie each other up? Get out of here you pervert! Whatever floats your love boat, she won't do it. Or at least you think she won't do it.

It seems like I've seen hundreds of references by guys who characterize their wives as "vanilla" because they're seemingly sexually disinterested. A few secretly turn to bisexuality or at least bicuriousity to fill the gap between an unsatisfying reality and very vivid fantasy. I know I did at one point in my life.

Chime in if this sounds familiar. I'm equally curious about the ladies here who've experienced Vanilla Husband Syndrome (which I suspect is less common but still quite real) and turned to toys or even playing with other women as a result.

BTW, despite my tone, I'm not poking fun at this...I know it's a very real and very frustrating thing to have a dramatic imbalance between your desires and your partner's. Just curious about what others think.

 

[gametime07]

Did you enjoy your gap of bisexual reality? How did you fall into it and why did you get away from it?

 

[Pirate_Guy]

Hey Game...

The short version is, "Sort of." Sexually, it was satisfying some of the time. Emotionally, not so much. Justified or not, I was cheating on my wife. And guilt is a ugly, unrelenting bitch.

Here's my Lit submission on the subject: Bicurious and Married?

 

[lustatopia]

Well, if you don't use it you lose it, don't you? I'll guess there are a number of reasons for a Vanilla Wife Syndrome...

1. age. We all are getting older. Interest in sex declines, but not equally, men might remain horny longer than women because in theory they could inseminate younger women.

2. Fitness. women and men losing physical fitness are less interested in sex for both physical and psychological reasons. Who wants to get naked and flaunt it, when they remember they look like shit compared to last year. The spiral down begins there.

3. Familiarity. So you've been having sex for years. It's not exactly a fresh thrill any more.

4. Natural Selection. which is really saying that all the above was selected for by evolution. The body has past its fertile years, the need for sexual passion to push the body into reproducing is long past, that energy needs to be channelled into other more useful areas which improve the survival of the genome. Genetic disposition to become a nice fat useful grandma around fire teaching the young girls how to sew bearskins and lure the most fit male sexual partners was selected for over continued sexual prowness.

The way to postpone VWS is to get fit, get kinky and change your lifestyle to specifically dedicate time to romance.

 

[Safe_Bet]

How do you in your wildest imagination consider this to be LGBT related???

 

[Pirate_Guy]

How do you in your wildest imagination consider this to be LGBT related???

I'm not sure why I'm required to justify my existence to you, but to quote from my post:

It seems like I've seen hundreds of references by guys who characterize their wives as "vanilla" because they're seemingly sexually disinterested. A few secretly turn to bisexuality or at least bicuriousity to fill the gap between an unsatisfying reality and very vivid fantasy. I know I did at one point in my life.

Do I now pass whatever litmus test you seem to have for posting?

 

[lustatopia]

Yup, it's all about imagination or lack thereof...;-)

It is true that a lot of guys wait until they were in their 40's or 50's to turn to bi or homosexual activity, which just happens to fit in nicely with Pirate_Guy's VWS theory. Sad to waste your youth like that...I wouldn't doubt that there is an evolutionary foundation for this phenomena as well.

Of course, it might also have also have to do with the fact that our culture is far more accepting of homosexuality then it was in their youth, so they find it easier to come out now. AND, men sometimes finally grow up by the time they're 40, are past peer-group pressure and have developed the self-esteem and confidence to follow their bliss.

For the record, I was born bisexual, as are we all... I just never learned how to conform to the normative. Oh, and my wife isn't a VW, she's a total hottie. ;-)

 

[Safe_Bet]

I'm not sure why I'm required to justify my existence to you, but to quote from my post:

It seems like I've seen hundreds of references by guys who characterize their wives as "vanilla" because they're seemingly sexually disinterested. A few secretly turn to bisexuality or at least bicuriousity to fill the gap between an unsatisfying reality and very vivid fantasy. I know I did at one point in my life.

Do I now pass whatever litmus test you seem to have for posting?

"A few secretly turn to bisexuality or at least bicuriousity to fill the gap between an unsatisfying reality and very vivid fantasy"


No, no litmus test. I'm just sick of people who treat LGBT sexuality like some fetish or a glorified sex toy. We are not here to get straight people off when they can't get enough at home, dude.

First of all, if you you have same sex relations STRICTLY because your wife isn't giving you any or enough you are doing it only to get off on the sex and you could care less if it is with a man, woman or a donkey.

That is NOT homo or Bi sexual, IMO. You have no attraction to men, you just wanted a kinky cum, which would make it a fetish (and which generated my question to you before your whiny little response )

Secondly, REAL homo / bi sexuality is NOT something you just turn on and off at a whim. Anything else is simply using another human being as your cum receptacle.


To the other poster: Sorry, but not EVERYONE is born Bi, regardless of your opinion, dude. I certainly wasn't and I'm damn sure there are a bunch of truly straight people who have no Bi tendencies.

 

[PeteofPA]

Yup, vanilla wife syndrome.

I've learned by accident I guess that I enjoy sexual intimacy with another man. It's hot, and I feel no guilt about it. As a matter of fact although my wife has no idea, she'd be more upset if I ever had an affair with a woman I'm sure.

Keeps me going!!!

 

[HerLittlePiggy]

"A few secretly turn to bisexuality or at least bicuriousity to fill the gap between an unsatisfying reality and very vivid fantasy"


No, no litmus test. I'm just sick of people who treat LGBT sexuality like some fetish or a glorified sex toy. We are not here to get straight people off when they can't get enough at home, dude.

First of all, if you you have same sex relations STRICTLY because your wife isn't giving you any or enough you are doing it only to get off on the sex and you could care less if it is with a man, woman or a donkey.

That is NOT homo or Bi sexual, IMO. You have no attraction to men, you just wanted a kinky cum, which would make it a fetish (and which generated my question to you before your whiny little response )

Secondly, REAL homo / bi sexuality is NOT something you just turn on and off at a whim. Anything else is simply using another human being as your cum receptacle.


To the other poster: Sorry, but not EVERYONE is born Bi, regardless of your opinion, dude. I certainly wasn't and I'm damn sure there are a bunch of truly straight people who have no Bi tendencies.

If you are truly honest SB you really want GLBT to subtract the male bi sexuals. This is the demo that moist of your ire seems directed at. You got the fetish forum and now you want to push the bimen out because it does not fit into your category of interests.

Stop trying to be the tipic police and if something isn't your cup o tea close the thread and look elsewhere. Jeeze. Lighten up and let us enjoy the tipic without making it all about you /rant

On topic. My wife is not vanilla but she is not accepting of polygamous relations nor bisexuality. Because of that I have never told her of my curiosity. I wish she would accept it and we could share those fantasies but that aint happening.

 

[Safe_Bet]

If you are truly honest SB you really want GLBT to subtract the male bi sexuals. This is the demo that moist of your ire seems directed at. You got the fetish forum and now you want to push the bimen out because it does not fit into your category of interests.

Stop trying to be the tipic police and if something isn't your cup o tea close the thread and look elsewhere. Jeeze. Lighten up and let us enjoy the tipic without making it all about you /rant

On topic. My wife is not vanilla but she is not accepting of polygamous relations nor bisexuality. Because of that I have never told her of my curiosity. I wish she would accept it and we could share those fantasies but that aint happening.

Read minds much???? (and erroneously?)

Stop trying to put words into my mouth. Anyone with a bit of reading comprehension can see I didn't say anything of the sort.

The TOPIC was the OP pissing and moaning about his wife who isn't kinky enough for him. Bisexuality was mentioned as an aside (and most prolly to keep his ass from getting eaten in the GB). It DOESN'T make it a GLBT related post, IMO.

That said, that is just my opinion and I CAN state it if you like it or not.

BTW, stop your whining, dude. YOU might not like having all of your "guys that like cock, but hate men" posts moved to the Fetish forum, but the rest of us sure as fuck do.

P.S. If you can't communicate with your spouse about your needs that STILL isn't grounds to cheat, no matter WHAT your orientation. All "not telling your wife" does is make you a coward as well as a cheating scumbag.

 

[HerLittlePiggy]

Read minds much???? (and erroneously?)

Stop trying to put words into my mouth. Anyone with a bit of reading comprehension can see I didn't say anything of the sort.

The TOPIC was the OP pissing and moaning about his wife who isn't kinky enough for him. Bisexuality was mentioned as an aside (and most prolly to keep his ass from getting eaten in the GB). It DOESN'T make it a GLBT related post, IMO.

That said, that is just my opinion and I CAN state it if you like it or not.

BTW, stop your whining, dude. YOU might not like having all of your "guys that like cock, but hate men" posts moved to the Fetish forum, but the rest of us sure as fuck do.

P.S. If you can't communicate with your spouse about your needs that STILL isn't grounds to cheat, no matter WHAT your orientation. All "not telling your wife" does is make you a coward as well as a cheating scumbag.

Frst and foremost, I do not cheat on my wife. I have never had sex with a man but I am bicurious. Does that make me a scum bag. I am glad you got what you wanted though. I truly am. After all good things should happen to good people like you /sarcasm

You play thread police constantly and the subject of your ire is almost always bimen or men who are attracted to cock but not men. I am in that clkub and I am soirry if the offends you. Maybe if everyone feels like you, as you imply, I should take my talents elsewhere.

i

 

[lustatopia]

Gosh, Safe-Bet, I'm sorry you're upset...

I guess this topic must have really hit a nerve. The GLBT community chose the symbol of the rainbow because it represents the complete visible range of the electromagnetic spectrum and as such -inclusiveness, which implies tolerance as well. We aren't all as unquestioningly self-satisfied with our sexuality as you appear to be.

And there is plenty of psychological, physiological and sociological evidence to suggest that everyone is born capable of bisexuality. Bisexuality is simply the psychological capacity to enjoy sexual pleasure with other human beings, regardless of gender. In that sense we were ALL born with that capacity, but were taught through a lifetime of culturalization to gravitate towards heterosexuality, for the obvious evolutionary need to promote procreation. The range of human societies demonstrates the flexibility of human sexuality.

But your most egregious position is the self-righteous moral judgement you cast upon people you don't know from Adam. How ironic that someone who imagines she's sexually liberated would adopt the authoritarian, hectoring tone of a social conservative to admonish those he imagines have violated some sort of code sexual orthodoxy.

Maybe Safe-Bet is the Only Gay in the Village?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YHbTjpjUEI

 

[Safe_Bet]

Gosh, Safe-Bet, I'm sorry you're upset...

I guess this topic must have really hit a nerve. The GLBT community chose the symbol of the rainbow because it represents the complete visible range of the electromagnetic spectrum and as such -inclusiveness, which implies tolerance as well. We aren't all as unquestioningly self-satisfied with our sexuality as you appear to be.

And there is plenty of psychological, physiological and sociological evidence to suggest that everyone is born capable of bisexuality. Bisexuality is simply the psychological capacity to enjoy sexual pleasure with other human beings, regardless of gender. In that sense we were ALL born with that capacity, but were taught through a lifetime of culturalization to gravitate towards heterosexuality, for the obvious evolutionary need to promote procreation. The range of human societies demonstrates the flexibility of human sexuality.

But your most egregious position is the self-righteous moral judgement you cast upon people you don't know from Adam. How ironic that someone who imagines she's sexually liberated would adopt the authoritarian, hectoring tone of a social conservative to admonish those he imagines have violated some sort of code sexual orthodoxy.

Maybe Safe-Bet is the Only Gay in the Village?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YHbTjpjUEI

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Cute, dude. Calling somebody self-righteous and then going all "self-righteous" is pretty damn funny! It become down right hysterical when you say shit like that I was "taught through a lifetime of culturalization to gravitate towards heterosexuality...".

I'm a dyke you fucking moron!

BTW, as a matter of fact, I am pretty satisfied with my sexuality, thank you. There are hard 1s and 5s on the K Scales, doofus. Just you "saying so" doesn't make that fact any less true.

None the less, I'll tell you what - you post your "plenty of psychological, physiological and sociological evidence" and I'll read it. If I can generate enough of a desire to care, I might even refute it with my own.

Till then, Don't be making blanket statements of fact, when they are ONLY your opinion. You DO have a right to your opinion, but you DON'T have the right to make shit up (which is something that y'all apparently are pretty good at).

 

[Lady_Fiona]

I'm curious about how many guys who visit the GLBT forum are victims of what I have officially named "Vanilla Wife Syndrome"?

VWS seems to most commonly afflict mature men whose libidos have stayed the same (or grown) while their wife's has dwindled. Specifically, the typical VWS sufferer is a 40- or 50-something guy whose fantasies and sex drive are stronger than ever but who believes that his spouse is barely interested in anything beyond obligatory, once-a-month, "just stick it in, get it over with and let me watch Leno" intercourse in the good-old missionary position.

Oral? No way. Sexy lingerie? Forget it. Tie each other up? Get out of here you pervert! Whatever floats your love boat, she won't do it. Or at least you think she won't do it.

It seems like I've seen hundreds of references by guys who characterize their wives as "vanilla" because they're seemingly sexually disinterested. A few secretly turn to bisexuality or at least bicuriousity to fill the gap between an unsatisfying reality and very vivid fantasy. I know I did at one point in my life.

Chime in if this sounds familiar. I'm equally curious about the ladies here who've experienced Vanilla Husband Syndrome (which I suspect is less common but still quite real) and turned to toys or even playing with other women as a result.

BTW, despite my tone, I'm not poking fun at this...I know it's a very real and very frustrating thing to have a dramatic imbalance between your desires and your partner's. Just curious about what others think.

Sounds like my HUSBAND. Apart from the bisexual bit, he would rather chop his own cock and balls off. Hell he would rather sew my cunt up than admit I am bisexual (and have been for many years so no its not a passing 'I kissed a girl and I liked it' fad)

 

[Safe_Bet]

Sounds like my HUSBAND. Apart from the bisexual bit, he would rather chop his own cock and balls off. Hell he would rather sew my cunt up than admit I am bisexual (and have been for many years so no its not a passing 'I kissed a girl and I liked it' fad)

Thank you. I didn't dare even get into the sexist aspects of his comment.

 

[lustatopia]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Cute, dude. Calling somebody self-righteous and then going all "self-righteous" is pretty damn funny! It become down right hysterical when you say shit like that I was "taught through a lifetime of culturalization to gravitate towards heterosexuality...".

I'm a dyke you fucking moron!.

I really don't understand why you are so angry.

Or why you imagine we can't all read big pink letters proudly proclaiming your sexuality.

I'm not raising my voice or using ad hominem insults to belittle you. Nor am I mocking you or your opinion, which you are entitled to.

I do reserve my right to disagree with you and to reasonably outline why I think not only are you wrong, but your style of communicating your opinion is juvenile and unproductive.

In fact, you might have been able to make a rational case why Pirate Guy's post is not applicable to the GLBT chatter forum, but simply by demonstrating how threatening Pirate Guy's bisexuality is to your own values you have elevated the topicality of his post beyond its original intent.

The post now goes right to the very heart of GLBT identity politics! Thanks for that, Safe-bet.

My point is that your definition of what it means to be a full fledge member of the GLBT community is something less than liberal, kind or generous and that you might want to look more closely at your own unexamined assumptions about sexuality before attempting to thwart the rational inquiry of others into their own sexual nature.

There are plenty of sexual variations on the GLBT Chatter board which aren't my cup of tea. But who am I to seek to impose my own vision of sexual pleasure upon others as a kind of orthodoxy from which it is heretical to vary?

That's what you are attempting to do here in the most oppressively rhetorical way you can muster. I seriously doubt you would tolerate for a moment a Southern Baptist seeking to impose their dogma on your sexuality. But somehow it's OK for you to behave in the same fashion towards a rather mundane sexuality you deem deviant?

Now, if you will please comport yourself. Take a deep breath. Relax and attempt to rationally explain your position in terms that are conducive to creating a dialog between differing points of view, rather than simply hurling insults... I would be delighted to further entertain any ideas you have to offer.

 

[lustatopia]

Freud, Kinsey, Stekel and Klein

you DON'T have the right to make shit up...I'll tell you what - you post your "plenty of psychological, physiological and sociological evidence" and I'll read it. If I can generate enough of a desire to care...

OK, just a few sound-bites fer ya...

Sigmund Freud:

"All persons orignally are bisexual in their predisposition. There is no exception to this rule. Normal persons show a distinct bisexual period up to the age of puberty. The heterosexual then represses his homosexuality. He also sublimates a portion of his homosexual cravings in friendship, nationalism, soical endeavors, gatherings, etc.

Alfred Kinsey, a famous sex researcher:

Since only 50 per cent of the population is exclusively heterosexual thoughout its adult life, and since only 4 per cent of the population is exclusively homosexual thoughout its life, it appears that nealy half of the population engages in both heterosexual and homosexual activities or reacts to persons of both sexes, in the course of their adult life. The term bisexual has been appled to at least some portion of this group.

Wilhelm Stekel, German psychologist and philosopher...

"Stekel boldy asserts that everyone is innately bisexual and that monosexuality--exclusive heterosexuality or homosexuality--is unnatural."

Fritz Klein in "The Bisexual Option" (1978) explains why Safe-bet is freaking out.

"To most heterosexual and homosexuals, the bisexual is an alien being whose dual sexuality opens up the possibility of their own sexual ambiguity. They cannot understand the bisexual's ability to share their own preferences but not their own aversion."

* * *

Of course, there are lots of opinions about bisexuality counter to these claims and many, many more support them, however to deny they exist is to be, shall we say, "unaware" of the literature on the topic.

I'm still quite ready to engage Safe_bet in a rational discussion when she's ready.

 

[Safe_Bet]

OK, just a few sound-bites fer ya...

Sigmund Freud:

"All persons orignally are bisexual in their predisposition. There is no exception to this rule. Normal persons show a distinct bisexual period up to the age of puberty. The heterosexual then represses his homosexuality. He also sublimates a portion of his homosexual cravings in friendship, nationalism, soical endeavors, gatherings, etc.

Alfred Kinsey, a famous sex researcher:

Since only 50 per cent of the population is exclusively heterosexual thoughout its adult life, and since only 4 per cent of the population is exclusively homosexual thoughout its life, it appears that nealy half of the population engages in both heterosexual and homosexual activities or reacts to persons of both sexes, in the course of their adult life. The term bisexual has been appled to at least some portion of this group.

Wilhelm Stekel, German psychologist and philosopher...

"Stekel boldy asserts that everyone is innately bisexual and that monosexuality--exclusive heterosexuality or homosexuality--is unnatural."

Fritz Klein in "The Bisexual Option" (1978) explains why Safe-bet is freaking out.

"To most heterosexual and homosexuals, the bisexual is an alien being whose dual sexuality opens up the possibility of their own sexual ambiguity. They cannot understand the bisexual's ability to share their own preferences but not their own aversion."

* * *

Of course, there are lots of opinions about bisexuality counter to these claims and many, many more support them, however to deny they exist is to be, shall we say, "unaware" of the literature on the topic.

I'm still quite ready to engage Safe_bet in a rational discussion when she's ready.

Is that the best you can do, dude?

A discredited misogynist and his disciple? BOTH of whom made these statements in support of their unproven THEORY that women are nothing more than castrated men and suffer from want of a dick? Seriously?

As for Kinsey and Klein, they both agree with ME about there being a range of human sexuality to include true heteros and true homos when I called bullshit on your following statement:

"Bisexuality is simply the psychological capacity to enjoy sexual pleasure with other human beings, regardless of gender. In that sense we were ALL born with that capacity, but were taught through a lifetime of culturalization to gravitate towards heterosexuality, for the obvious evolutionary need to promote procreation. "[bolding in mine for emphasis]

********

Now as for the rest of your BS, to include your ad hominem personal attacks and your out of context Klein quote -

Please don't EVER try to put words into my mouth, buster, because I don't have ANY problem understanding TRUE bisexuals. I can understand some one having the capability to love someone regardless of their gender.

That said I DO think that MANY people use bisexuality as a "movable closet" so that they can run and hide when the str8s come around, while at the same time USING homos strictly to alleviate their own sexual frustration.

To say it clearly I think MANY Bis are too cowardly to admit that they are queer, so they lie to both themselves and others by saying they are Bi.

These are the ones, like your buddy here, that say shit like "I like sucking cock, but I don't like having sex with men". It is cowardly bullshit and reduces the bisexual orientation, in their cases, to a fetish, IMO.

Now granted, theres are just MY opinions (even though you apparently don't thing I have the right to them), but you are going to have to do WAY better than quoting a couple of woman haters and a guys who was trying to justify his OWN bisexuality to convince me otherwise.

P.S. Question for you, dude... Why do bisexuals such as yourself always attack the homos? Why are you so defensive and aggressive at the same time? Why do you feel the need to use words like "ALL", "self-righteous" and imply that anyone who questions your motives are "juvenile and unproductive"? Where does YOUR anger towards us come from?

 

[all_the_goodies]

Personally I had a ex-husband that didn't like anything fun, nor did he try to please me ( one of the many reasons he is an ex). I have also come accoss many men that feel their wives are this way and that they will not nor could they ever understand. Most of them said they were or have been bisexual for years but just don't know how to express it or feel if they did they will be downcast or looked at as a pervert. I do think men in this situation should try to talk to thier loved one about it. I understand its hard, but "honest is the best policy" and I do think communication is key. However I do empathise with men and women in this situation.

 

[TallOne]

Bisexual men have to justify their very existence to both the gay and straight communities. True most of these "straight but like cock" guys are most likely just 'heteroflexible', but that is still something on the spectrum in the bisexual range and thus should be welcome here. And perhaps they are more bisexual but aren't willing to admit that to themselves yet due to societal implications, and jumping on them when they think they've found a safe place to voice their feelings isn't going to help.

In the end it's a moderating decision to move threads to the appropriate forums, can't we all just get along, stop the bickering, and let mods handle it?

 

[Blue_Duck]

I'm trying to get out of the vanilla wife club. I love my wife. One of the reasons I married her was the great sex we had when we were younger. We have had mmf and ffm threesomes before and after we were married. However, over the last five or six years (and after two kiddos) she has had almost zero interest in sex. At least she never initiates sex and claims to have not sexual fantasies at all....a pretty big change in our sexual life. I have since been enjoying swapping photos with another man and will hopefully get the opportunity to meet him soon. anyway, I'd be happy if my wife could regain or once again find her sex drive so we could both enjoy this man. Maybe this will eventually happen. Oh yea, congrats to the hateful poster attacking the fellow who started this thread. I would have never thought I would have to create an ignore list on a board that welcomes gay and lesbians....this is a first for me

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree with the people who say that bisexual folk have to justify themselves to the heteros AND the gay/lesbians.

And its very true for many bisexuals that they come into the realisation in middle age-- well after they've made their commitments to an opposite sex partner.

We do not always feel that our new self-knowledge is more important than the promises we've made to another person, to the plans and life we;ve built.

There is a huge difference between "men who love cock but don't like men" and "folk who have realised that they might, in fact, love another person of their own sex despite their hetero marriage."

 

[lustatopia]

Safe_Bet

Everyone can see that you're so pissed off you've lost the plot. It's your outrage and your intolerance that stand out, not your actual points of concern, which if they had been expressed rationally are perfectly valid observations worthy of consideration.

What is there to be angry about?

Your intolerance of bisexuality is juvenile and self-righteous. I stand by those statements and have attempted to make an argument for the inclusion of all levels of queerness, from the most timid to the most proud into our GLBT community. Without discrimination.

Of course, you are totally free to disagree with the argument for GLBT inclusiveness. But if you do so, understand that you align yourself with same spirit that animates reactionary social conservatism and sexual intolerance where ever it exists in the world.

 

[lustatopia]

Let me see if I understand safe_bet's core argument:

You claim that you "understand TRUE bisexual." They're the ones who can love either gender. But then there is the rest of the bisexual community who live as "cowards" in "movable closets." These bisexuals are "cheating scumbags" and treat others as "cum receptacles."

Well, that's a very scholarly and sensitive approach to bisexuality and I totally respect your right to express your opinion forcefully. I would have described the extremely complex socio-political and psychological interface between gay and straight cultures a bit differently, but whatever.

In fact, just as you could have made a case that the VWS post belonged on another board, but utterly failed to do so by revealing how bisexuality threatens you - for reasons unknown - thus elevating this post to a highly topical debate to the GBLT community, you have now failed to make what also could have been a perfectly reasonable case for an ethics of transparency in presenting your sexual identity.

If you deplore the fact that men as they are exploring their bisexual or gay nature often can not be honest with either their lovers or even themselves sometimes about their sexual identity, then you have a perfectly valid point.

It is good advice to all bisexual men to as quickly as possible resolve their sexuality and be honest with all their lovers, male and female. Obviously, it is morally reprehensible to cheat on your lovers or to hide your true sexuality from them.

That said, queerness is a vast city with a thousand different approaches and many of them wander circuitously in the sexual wilderness many a mile before (if ever) arriving at the destination.

I would simply council a bit more tolerance, kindness and patience on the part of Safe_bet for those who timidly attempt to work out their identity on the fringes of our community.

I'd be pleased to continue this debate with Safe_bet. The fact is that our ethical positions aren't really that far apart. Honesty and transparency in sexual identity politics is highly desirable. So is empathy, tolerance and a kind heart.