Has everyone already forgotten Question Mark?

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Being sane and setting a budget is not impossible. It's just hard work.

Politicians are not up to the hard work of telling people no, at least the ones that want to keep their jobs. It's why we Libertarians think the way we do about calls for government intervention...

EVERYONE is a Christian Crusader, even the Atheists.

 

[Recidiva]

Politicians are not up to the hard work of telling people no, at least the ones that want to keep their jobs. It's why we Libertarians think the way we do about calls for government intervention...

EVERYONE is a Christian Crusader, even the Atheists.

No, it's not that simple. Life is more complicated and thus has more possiblity.

You are comfortable in a place where everything's black and white, therefore there's no point to attempting gray.

I'm fine in realizing there is possibility for individuals and groups to do amazing things. You just have to step up and try. Sure, you might fail, but you'll surely fail if you leave it all to the assholes.

I think it's intellectually lazy and doesn't jive with reality. You pick and choose where you think groups and governments fail, and you refuse to acknowledge when they really work. Even when they benefit you directly.

I'm an agnostic.

 

[mercury14]

With whose money?

Would you take it from AIDS funding*? Military funding? The VA? YOUR job???

We're BROKE man. Irrevocably BROKE!

Sufficient health services would have had these clowns in a ward, but the liberals decided that that was too cruel. We're stuck now in a sanitized world where we pretend that the insane can be productive members of society even when they go out of their way to prove they are not, one of the unintended consequences of liberal group-think. Until we cure the mindset, these people will continue to shoot people up be it in the name of Allah, Obama, Palin, or the fucking dog...


* good luck with that, that would be an open admission of homophobia

You speak from a position of massive ignorance. Of course the "insane" (whatever that means to you) can be helped. The number of individuals so mentally ill that they must be kept in a secure facility for an extended period of time is quite small.

The larger group (which Loughlin probably would have fallen into) is the group of people who would access community mental health services. These people live on their own, have a case manager that sees them regularly, see a psychiatrist, take medication, use job rehab services when they're not already employed, etc.

These services have a proven model of effectiveness and are far cheaper than any inpatient option. The kicker is that these services end up on the chopping block when there's a deficit. Then there's an incident and funding is restored... until people forget the incident... and the cycle repeats.


By the way, the "WE'RE BROKE" argument is incredibly weak. It's all about priorities. We can't afford everything, but we can afford some things. Saying we can afford nothing is absurd.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

You speak from a position of massive ignorance. Of course the "insane" (whatever that means to you) can be helped. The number of individuals so mentally ill that they must be kept in a secure facility for an extended period of time is quite small.

The larger group (which Loughlin probably would have fallen into) is the group of people who would access community mental health services. These people live on their own, have a case manager that sees them regularly, see a psychiatrist, take medication, use job rehab services when they're not already employed, etc.

These services have a proven model of effectiveness and are far cheaper than any inpatient option. The kicker is that these services end up on the chopping block when there's a deficit. Then there's an incident and funding is restored... until people forget the incident... and the cycle repeats.


By the way, the "WE'RE BROKE" argument is incredibly weak. It's all about priorities. We can't afford everything, but we can afford some things. Saying we can afford nothing is absurd.

I'm pretty sure that is guy probably had all sorts of access to mental health care.

What he was short on was people not afraid to demand he seek it because of our culture of "tolerance and diversity." Who wants the kind of grief and personal attacks that go with making judgements about the affairs of other people? we've ceded that responsibility to the government.

It's not absurd. As soon as YOU set your spending priorities, you are in direct conflict with other people who have THEIR spending priorities. That's what happens when government becomes the answer for everything. The problem is that when you ask it to do everything it really can't succeed in doing anything...

__________________
When your philosophy of government is based on groups, you must remember that your group can be a favored, or disfavored group, with equal ease and that neither status is ever permanent any more than the favors government solemnly promised to purchase your group loyalty.
A_J, the Stupid

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

No, it's not that simple. Life is more complicated and thus has more possiblity.

You are comfortable in a place where everything's black and white, therefore there's no point to attempting gray.

I'm fine in realizing there is possibility for individuals and groups to do amazing things. You just have to step up and try. Sure, you might fail, but you'll surely fail if you leave it all to the assholes.

I think it's intellectually lazy and doesn't jive with reality. You pick and choose where you think groups and governments fail, and you refuse to acknowledge when they really work. Even when they benefit you directly.

I'm an agnostic.

Everything is black and white. When you accept the premis that there is a gray, then everything tends to black.

__________________
There is black and white, and if you refuse to believe that, then you will accept grey and let me tell you gray tends to black for when you say ∃ of anything is a good function of government then ∃ is everything ¬∀ and while you may be able to advocate for ∃ you won't be allowed to define it and in this manner its limit will be ∀ for ∑f(∪∃)i [i=from you to the total population] will never tend to ∅ by definition so it is easy to see that it is, indeed, an ∀ or ∅ when it comes to government. (Now, the ∑f(∩∃)i [i=from you to the total population] will tend to ∅ but that is politically unattainable for the obvious reason that the more ∃ is defined, the smaller the ∩∃ becomes.)
A_J, the Stupid


When someone tells me, "You just see things in black and white, the issue is more nuanced than that," then the redneck translator tells me what they are saying is, "If you were a more nuanced thinker, you would see that I am right and you are wrong!"
A_J, the Stupid

 

[Recidiva]

I'm pretty sure that is guy probably had all sorts of access to mental health care.

What he was short on was people not afraid to demand he seek it because of our culture of "tolerance and diversity." Who wants the kind of grief and personal attacks that go with making judgements about the affairs of other people; we've ceded that responsibility to the government.

It's not absurd. As soon as YOU set your spending priorities, you are in direct conflict with other people who have THEIR spending priorities. That's what happens when government becomes the answer for everything. The problem is that when you ask it to do everything it really can't succeed in doing anything...

__________________
When your philosophy of government is based on groups, you must remember that your group can be a favored, or disfavored group, with equal ease and that neither status is ever permanent any more than the favors government solemnly promised to purchase your group loyalty.
A_J, the Stupid

He didn't. The school knew he needed help and referred him. Whether or not that information got to his parents we don't know. But he certainly was aware he should seek help but didn't get it. He lived with his parents, who didn't get him any help as far as I know. I'm not blaming the parents. I'm saying that I've seen plenty of situations where family lives in a state of denial.

There's a huge stigma of being mentally ill. Add on the fact that this is a particular situation that makes someone more paranoid and unwilling to believe anyone will help you and you get the perfect storm.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Even Agnostics Crusade, doin' good has become the American mantra, we just all want to do it on the public dime anymore...




You see, like the knee-jerk reaction to "hate" talk causing the shooting, the knee-jerk answer to the problem of mental health is spending. I see the problem as a lack of intestinal fortitude. We get weak in the knees at the idea of "criminalizing" health problems with "incarceration."

The kid has parents and probably was covered by insurance all the time he was going demonstrably insane according to classmates and teachers. Think about it...

 

[Recidiva]

Everything is black and white. When you accept the premis that there is a gray, then everything tends to black.

Okay. So your mind's set and you "KNOW" what the world is like even though the world is infinitely more diverse.

I'm afraid that's the problem many people face. Their ideas of the world have nothing to do with the world, but they have no interest in changing their own mind about it because to do so would be too much like work.

That's sad, but there are lots of people working on solutions to problems and not just accepting that they will be eternally there. How do I know? Because history is full of individuals doing extraordinary things, backed up by support systems.

You think it's all black because you paint it that way in your head. Out in the world, things have their own colors.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

He didn't. The school knew he needed help and referred him. Whether or not that information got to his parents we don't know. But he certainly was aware he should seek help but didn't get it. He lived with his parents, who didn't get him any help as far as I know. I'm not blaming the parents. I'm saying that I've seen plenty of situations where family lives in a state of denial.

There's a huge stigma of being mentally ill. Add on the fact that this is a particular situation that makes someone more paranoid and unwilling to believe anyone will help you and you get the perfect storm.

The school should have had the power to expel him until he came back with an all-clear, but I submit, they were forced to keep him on because no one could COMPEL him to seek help. It's kinda hard to get a loon to ask for help just as it's kind of hard to get an addict to admit they have a problem.

 

[Recidiva]

Even Agnostics Crusade, doin' good has become the American mantra, we just all want to do it on the public dime anymore...




You see, like the knee-jerk reaction to "hate" talk causing the shooting, the knee-jerk answer to the problem of mental health is spending. I see the problem as a lack of intestinal fortitude. We get weak in the knees at the idea of "criminalizing" health problems with "incarceration."

The kid has parents and probably was covered by insurance all the time he was going demonstrably insane according to classmates and teachers. Think about it...

There are taxes. Taxes are a fact. Taxes need to be spent responsibly. Of course people who pay taxes want a say in how they're spent.

The answer to many problems is spending. If I want to eat, I spend money on food.

Money is energy directed toward a purpose. Some of it is wasteful and useless and some of it isn't. If I burned my money, I wouldn't eat.

Mentally ill are incarcerated all the time. I really don't know what you're talking about here.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Okay. So your mind's set and you "KNOW" what the world is like even though the world is infinitely more diverse.

I'm afraid that's the problem many people face. Their ideas of the world have nothing to do with the world, but they have no interest in changing their own mind about it because to do so would be too much like work.

That's sad, but there are lots of people working on solutions to problems and not just accepting that they will be eternally there. How do I know? Because history is full of individuals doing extraordinary things, backed up by support systems.

You think it's all black because you paint it that way in your head. Out in the world, things have their own colors.

Hey, my world was VERY colorful. Then I grew up, operated a business, and observed my government nuancing my child out of her future opportunities to achieve more than I have, perhaps the first generation to not have that opportunity.

 

[Recidiva]

The school should have had the power to expel him until he came back with an all-clear, but I submit, they were forced to keep him on because no one could COMPEL him to seek help. It's kinda hard to get a loon to ask for help just as it's kind of hard to get an addict to admit they have a problem.

The school sent him home with a note saying that he wouldn't be readmitted unless he came back with a doctor's determination he wasn't a threat to self or others. They did exactly what you said they should do, and also had a right to have him submitted for evaluation themselves if they chose to do so. They didn't keep him on. I don't think you're aware of the facts in this case.

The school did what they could. He didn't want help. He was entirely aware that everyone thought he needed it.

This is why the school and individuals need more education regarding how to deal with a person in this situation. The public is more aware of how to treat an addict because of education programs. I see no reason why the same mechanism couldn't be applied to schizophrenia.

 

[Recidiva]

Hey, my world was VERY colorful. Then I grew up, operated a business, and observed my government nuancing my child out of her future opportunities to achieve more than I have, perhaps the first generation to not have that opportunity.

Well, here's where I get to say that everybody's seen horrible things. You either cave to them and decide they've won, or you keep fighting.

You seem to behave as if no fight's winnable. Complaint is not the same thing as constructive action. I see a lot of your opinions to be destructive and in the same vein as "Don't make the bed, it'll just get messy again. Don't eat, you'll just get hungry again."

Well, DUH. Most of life at a certain point is maintenance. Cleaning up the dirt, pulling up the weeds.

Of course nothing's going to go well if you don't do the maintenance.

You've got to get over the fact that entropy's real and you have to work five times at just fighting back the entropy and have very little energy left over to make actual progress.

The universe is not out to get you, it just sucks in general for everyone.

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

Is anyone suggesting that we sweep the streets of all homeless people, require them to have very expensive psych evals. and if deemed dangerous lock them away in very expensive hospitals?

If you don’t want crazy people to have guns you have to lock up one or the other.

 

[Recidiva]

Is anyone suggesting that we sweep the streets of all homeless people, require them to have very expensive psych evals. and if deemed dangerous lock them away in very expensive hospitals?

If you don’t want crazy people to have guns you have to lock up one or the other.

No, I'm suggesting that people do some more education and research on the subject of schizophrenia and lower the cost and stigma of psych evals.

 

[zipman]

Everything is black and white. When you accept the premis that there is a gray, then everything tends to black.

When someone tells me, "You just see things in black and white, the issue is more nuanced than that," then the redneck translator tells me what they are saying is, "If you were a more nuanced thinker, you would see that I am right and you are wrong!"
A_J, the Stupid

You are clearly operating based on a flawed premise. The world is not black and white no matter how much you may try and "nuance" yourself into believing that it is.

Critical thinking involves the ability to recognize and analyze context, not just assign ideas as absolutes.

Take killing for example. According to you, killing is either wrong and unacceptable under any circumstance or right and acceptable under any circumstance. I think we can all agree that killing isn't always right and acceptable, especially to anyone who professes to be a libertarian. However, if you look at killing based on self-defense, it is part of the world of gray that you deny exists. It is based on the context of the situation.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Killing or murder?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

The school sent him home with a note saying that he wouldn't be readmitted unless he came back with a doctor's determination he wasn't a threat to self or others. They did exactly what you said they should do, and also had a right to have him submitted for evaluation themselves if they chose to do so. They didn't keep him on. I don't think you're aware of the facts in this case.

The school did what they could. He didn't want help. He was entirely aware that everyone thought he needed it.

This is why the school and individuals need more education regarding how to deal with a person in this situation. The public is more aware of how to treat an addict because of education programs. I see no reason why the same mechanism couldn't be applied to schizophrenia.

The school, according to reports had to have law enforcement in five times in regard to Mr. "Cleared" by a doctor. Nobody did a damned thing other than to look the other way and wait for him to do something bad so they could take stronger measures...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

No, I'm suggesting that people do some more education and research on the subject of schizophrenia and lower the cost and stigma of psych evals.

That sounds really simplistic, kinda black and white and none of you have identified which group of unassailable victims you're going to take the money from...

Maybe we should tax the students?

 

[zipman]

Killing or murder?

Killing. The taking of a human life by another human.

 

[Wrong Element]

It took 2 days to go from "The blame game is wrong" to "We're blaming the wrong people."

I can always count on the GB for logical consistency.

 

[Liar]

No, I'm suggesting that people do some more education and research on the subject of schizophrenia and lower the cost and stigma of psych evals.

Cost is easy.

Stigma? An entirely different cookie. Worth a go though.

 

[Recidiva]

Cost is easy.

Stigma? An entirely different cookie. Worth a go though.

Well, there's hope. Women used to be too embarrassed to admit they had breast cancer.

It can be done. I hope it will be done. Soon.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Killing. The taking of a human life by another human.

I'm talking about the state and the limitations on it.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Well, there's hope. Women used to be too embarrassed to admit they had breast cancer.

It can be done. I hope it will be done. Soon.

The problem is, with any awareness campaign, how sympathetic is your pool of unassailable victims? Brady's a near vegetable, ?'s victims are forgotten, hell, most people can't name the shot judge...

But breast cancer is your mom, sister, wife, gf, bff...

Similarly with AIDS, kid's cancer research...,

Schizos aren't sympathetic and their victims soon forgotten, but as we see (and please note that you can't find opening salvos of commentary blaming the rhetoric of the left, only THEY behaved stupidly) they are useful political tools for the politics of emotion over reason.