Arizona Blue Dog Dem shot at public event

[mikey2much]

You have to have tolerance to enjoy a free country

If you are free to worship how you want to and to believe in whatever you want to, then you have freedom of religion. However if you believe that your God wants you to stop your neighbors from marrying or have abortions, then your neighbors would be deprived of freedom of religion.

When the government allows this to happen you have what we have become today, a police state with no freedom for anybody.

Tolerance is the fuel that freedom runs on. I am afraid that our tank is empty.

 

[jomar]

...They have repeatedly asked Mr. Lunatic to shoot the people in the crosshairs. He did it. THEY are responsible.

I don't like the negative rhetoric, or the splitting and dehumanizing of the "other" and the call to arms.

But there are countless books, music, websites that invite and incite. The mentally ill find what speaks to them and sometimes act on their irrational/delusional beliefs and in this case this man tragically did.

If you are to hold Palin and company responsible for an individual's act then you have to hold the Beatles responsible for Manson's crimes and a whole laundry list of heavy metal, etc "induced" crimes and suicides.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I don't like the negative rhetoric, or the splitting and dehumanizing of the "other" and the call to arms.

But there are countless books, music, websites that invite and incite. The mentally ill find what speaks to them and sometimes act on their irrational/delusional beliefs and in this case this man tragically did.

If you are to hold Palin and company responsible for an individual's act then you have to hold the Beatles responsible for Manson's crimes and a whole laundry list of heavy metal, etc "induced" crimes and suicides.

Not to mention the many crimes that have been incited by violent video games, movies, TV shows, and the rapes that have been provoked by men reading the stories on this site.

I don't believe any of that crap but, apparently, many on this site believe that a person can be driven as Jomar and I describe.

 

[DeeZire]

Sarah Palin took this page down from her website just minutes after the news went out, but her loyal supporters haven't followed suit;
http://momsforsarahpalin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/sarahpac-20-300.jpg
I guess using rifle sight crosshairs doesn't mean she want people to murder her enemies. Who knew?

On the Sarah Palin front, here's an interesting take on her inability to tell the truth:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/09/palin-panics

First, a statement from her spokesperson posted in the last 24 hours:

An aide to Sarah Palin claims the crosshairs depicted in her now-infamous target list of Democrats were not actually gun-sights, and that it's "obscene" and "appalling" to blame Palin for the shooting. "We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights." They were "surveyor marks," says Palin's spokesperson, "like you'd see on maps.""

And here, a Sarah Palin tweet from Nov 4, 2010:

Remember 20 months ago "bullseye" icon used to target the 20 Obamacare-lovin' incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20. (90% success rate; T'aint bad.)

As I mentioned earlier, this issue is about American society's acceptance of violence as the norm. People across the globe are appalled at America's cavalier attitude towards violence. There's also the issue of the violence perpetrated by the policies of our capitalist system. We have the violence of our private healthcare system that allows people to die based on their access to resources. We have violence in the from of mine workers dying because of lax enforcement of safety regulations. We have violence in the form of 1 out of 5 American children going to bed hungry because of the gigantic income disparity between rich and poor and the economic devastation cause by the crooks on Wall Street.

The de-evolution of this country into third world status is sickening. To those of you who can't see it, or who approve of it, I'd suggest you might benefit from reassessing your POV on what constitutes a "civilized" society.

 

[SeaCat]

I too find this thread a bit on the disturbing side, but I find it so for reasons other than those already mentioned.

I find it disturbing because of how people are using this shooting as yet another venue to push their political beliefs.

I don't know, nor does anyone else at this point in time know why the shooter did what he did. Anything we can say at this time is purely speculation on our part. It is only when the facts are in that we can honestly say anything meaningful about his motivations.

Until that time I can only offer my condolences to those who lost loved ones or who were injured.

Cat

 

[R. Richard]

This is a sample of an amateur evaluation of Jared Loughner. IMNTHO Jared Loughner isn't a right winger, left winger or any winger. Jared Loughner is obviously insane. Trying to determine what caused him to shoot people is like trying to determine what card you will draw next in a 21 game and Jared Loughner aint playin' with a full deck.

Lynda Sorenson, 52, had gone back to community college in Tucson in hopes of getting back on the job market. One of her classes was a basic algebra class--and one of her classmates was Jared Loughner. Sorenson's e-mails to friends from last summer, provided to the Washington Post, reveal her growing alarm at Loughner's strange and disruptive behavior in class.

June 1, the first day of class:
"One day down and nineteen to go. We do have one student in the class who was disruptive today, I'm not certain yet if he was on drugs (as one person surmised) or disturbed. He scares me a bit. The teacher tried to throw him out and he refused to go, so I talked to the teacher afterward. Hopefully he will be out of class very soon, and not come back with an automatic weapon."

June 10:
"As for me, Thursday means the end to week two of algebra class. It seems to be going by quickly, but then I do have three weeks to go so we'll see how I feel by then. Class isn't dull as we have a seriously disturbed student in the class, and they are trying to figure out how to get rid of him before he does something bad, but on the other hand, until he does something bad, you can't do anything about him. Needless to say, I sit by the door."

June 14:
"We have a mentally unstable person in the class that scares the living crap out of me. He is one of those whose picture you see on the news, after he has come into class with an automatic weapon. Everyone interviewed would say, Yeah, he was in my math class and he was really weird. I sit by the door with my purse handy. If you see it on the news one night, know that I got out fast..."

The class's instructor, Ben McGahee, said in an interview Sunday that Loughner had been removed from class in its third or fourth week, because of repeated disruptions.

 

[jomar]

I too find this thread a bit on the disturbing side, but I find it so for reasons other than those already mentioned.

I find it disturbing because of how people are using this shooting as yet another venue to push their political beliefs.

I don't know, nor does anyone else at this point in time know why the shooter did what he did. Anything we can say at this time is purely speculation on our part. It is only when the facts are in that we can honestly say anything meaningful about his motivations.

Until that time I can only offer my condolences to those who lost loved ones or who were injured.

Cat

On the Dateline special on this they essentially speculated he was looking to lash out at government period and Giffords was handy.

 

[Boota]

I don't like the negative rhetoric, or the splitting and dehumanizing of the "other" and the call to arms.

But there are countless books, music, websites that invite and incite. The mentally ill find what speaks to them and sometimes act on their irrational/delusional beliefs and in this case this man tragically did.

If you are to hold Palin and company responsible for an individual's act then you have to hold the Beatles responsible for Manson's crimes and a whole laundry list of heavy metal, etc "induced" crimes and suicides.

That is exactly the opposite of what I said, if left in context. The Beatles said nothing of the sort about asking someone to kill anyone else. Manson made that up in his own twisted mind. The Teabaggers specifically used the language with the sole intent of inciting these negative and violent actions. The examples I used were tv violence and horror movies, but same difference. Watching a horror movie about a fictional guy killing fictional people is a far cry from posting real names with gunsights over them and speaking continually about "Second Amendment remedies" and using violence tinged rhetoric. When you say enough "Time to shoot these bastards" eventually someone with the proper twist in their psyche is going to pick up on it and act. Of course the mentally ill can take anything and make it a reason to kill. That is not the case with the Teabaggers. They are, literally, asking someone to take up arms in their cause. Now they are all trying to backpedal as quick as they can to say that they never intended something like this. Well, whether that was their intent or not this is their fault. Too bad there is nothing that will be done about it. I think this very well could just be the first in a series of shootings. When someone says they are going to kill to get their way and then the killing starts it just might be prudent to believe them.

 

[Bebeslut]

I don't think I'd blame the tea party, per se, as there are many individuals associated with it with good intentions in mind.
Sarah Palin, on the other hand, isn't the tea party, but she loves to court their attention and adulation, and it is individuals such as her who incite the crazies.
Free speech being what it is, I'd rather not clamp down on Palin. I would like to find a mechanism to instill some rationality in political discourse, though.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Another news report that the shooter is a leftwing nut. Its gonna keep leaking out. He isnt dancing to the tune of the Teabaggers; he's doing the Obama Boogie. I' waiting for the news that he's gay. This tarbaby is gonna stick to the Usual Suspects.

 

[sr71plt]

Another news report that the shooter is a leftwing nut. Its gonna keep leaking out. He isnt dancing to the tune of the Teabaggers; he's doing the Obama Boogie. I' waiting for the news that he's gay. This tarbaby is gonna stick to the Usual Suspects.

What other news report?

You have no credibility on your silly little provocation game.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Its true. The shooter's a leftie tarbaby. Be careful. I'm waiting for the gay shoe to drop. Then all the fag-hags in Congress will file bills to make fags illegal. I mean, leftie extremists dont like moderates, and your boy is chattering about his civil rights being violated...you know he's gay!

You guys sound like Hillary and her vast rightwing conspiracy. This is gonna be fun to watch unwrap.

 

[Bebeslut]

Who wants to bet that limbaugh spins the shooting as the fault of the left? And that he portrays the right as the "real victims."

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The shooter is a leftie. He's likely gay. He's likely upset that Giffords isnt a Kool-Aid Drinker.

 

[amicus]

If you are free to worship how you want to and to believe in whatever you want to, then you have freedom of religion. However if you believe that your God wants you to stop your neighbors from marrying or have abortions, then your neighbors would be deprived of freedom of religion.

When the government allows this to happen you have what we have become today, a police state with no freedom for anybody.

Tolerance is the fuel that freedom runs on. I am afraid that our tank is empty.[/QUOTE]

~~~

Marriage is and always has been defined as between a man and a woman. It is not a 'God' that dictates that, but Constitutional Law. Likewise, the first and primary right of a human being is to 'life', also mentioned in our founding documents. Yet you advocate taking 'life' at its' most vulnerable state, while still in the womb. It is you who advocate and commit the violence of murdering a child, of taking an innocent life without due cause.

You are the one who is intolerant of traditional and conventional interpretations of the Laws of the Land, it is you who are intolerant of the status quo and it is you who are attempting to use violence and subvert the laws of the land in realize your Bohemian and baseless morality.

It is your total inability to comprehend that we are a nation of laws, not left wing utopian concepts. It is you who are intolerant of all the civilized laws of man that have evolved over the centuries.

Amicus

 

[Boxlicker101]

Who wants to bet that limbaugh spins the shooting as the fault of the left? And that he portrays the right as the "real victims."

He might do that. I note the Huff Post tried to spin it that the judge was the target of the shooter and it was because of the shooter's dislike of illegal aliens.

ETA: In case you are wondering, the article doing so is on Post 26 and Post 28 of this thread.

 

[jomar]

That is exactly the opposite of what I said, if left in context. The Beatles said nothing of the sort about asking someone to kill anyone else. Manson made that up in his own twisted mind. The Teabaggers specifically used the language with the sole intent of inciting these negative and violent actions. The examples I used were tv violence and horror movies, but same difference. Watching a horror movie about a fictional guy killing fictional people is a far cry from posting real names with gunsights over them and speaking continually about "Second Amendment remedies" and using violence tinged rhetoric. When you say enough "Time to shoot these bastards" eventually someone with the proper twist in their psyche is going to pick up on it and act. Of course the mentally ill can take anything and make it a reason to kill. That is not the case with the Teabaggers. They are, literally, asking someone to take up arms in their cause. Now they are all trying to backpedal as quick as they can to say that they never intended something like this. Well, whether that was their intent or not this is their fault. Too bad there is nothing that will be done about it. I think this very well could just be the first in a series of shootings. When someone says they are going to kill to get their way and then the killing starts it just might be prudent to believe them.

The point I was trying to make is that whether it's Helter Skelter and a violent paranoid schizophrenic interpreting or a heavy metal cd calling for violence or suicide or anything like that it will be only the fringe of the mentally/emotionally unstable that find deep meaning in it.

Even if the "Republican party" as represented by Palin and the Teabaggers gives some false sense of permission, again, only the truly disturbed think it is more than rhetoric. So in that sense it is no different from someone committing suicide after listening to a cd calling for one to kill themselves, and if I'm not mistaken, the court has ruled on that and held the artists not responsible.

I do think it is reprehensible to use violent rhetoric and imagery in "mainstream" politics and I hope it does Palin damage, but she didn't pull the trigger.

And as far as I know, we still have yet to know exactly why he did it. Could be because he harbored festering anger that she did not answer and incomprehensible question he asked her a couple of years before at a rally and finally had had enough. Time will tell.

 

[mikey2much]

How can a reasonable man talk like you do?

"You are the one who is intolerant of traditional and conventional interpretations of the Laws of the Land, it is you who are intolerant of the status quo and it is you who are attempting to use violence and subvert the laws of the land in realize your Bohemian and baseless morality.

It is your total inability to comprehend that we are a nation of laws, not left wing utopian concepts. It is you who are intolerant of all the civilized laws of man that have evolved over the centuries."

Amicus[/QUOTE]

If I have a relationship with my God that forbids me to have an abortion or to marry someone of the same sex, then I need to follow my God’s laws. Freedom of religion allows for this. However if we have freedom of religion then you have to let some faiths do things that might be true to their religion but violate your views. It is the tolerance to allow your fellow Americans to follow their faiths that prove we are a free nation. Your God is un-American if he won’t judge you on your actions alone not your neighbors actions. When your beliefs are allowed to over-shadow mine then I don’t have freedom of religion.

Abortion is legal. Same sex marriage should be too. Yet the rights hate speech and the nuts who listen to it have made an abortion hard to get through fear. That ain’t the America I fought for.

You seem to be 100% sure that your views are the only ones that matter. I would think that you and JBJ are the two worst ones here for spouting the views of the right. JBJ is allowed certain latitude because he is a bit weak above the neck. But you seem to be a man some experience and should know better.

BTW I can’t find James B Johnson in the authors list. Why is he in this forum?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MIKEY

Theres a few reasons why you wont find my stories here. The 1st of them is I write underage sex. Like teens doing it. Cant post it. 2ND REASON: Folks steal everythings thats not on fire. 3RD REASON: There are better places to post stories. The quality of the wares here isnt all that good.

 

[TxRad]

BTW I can’t find James B Johnson in the authors list. Why is he in this forum?

Because we don't have a moderator like the other couple of forums that tossed him out do. So we are stuck with our own little pet troll.

 

[Guest]

*deleted*

 

[Bebeslut]

Is this any surprise?

More spin. This is just amazing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/tea-party-nation-founder-_n_806489.html

(Portion of article)


TPN founder Judson Phillips, in an article linked off the e-mail "The shooting of Gabrielle Giffords and the left's attack on the Tea Party movement," described the shooter as "a leftist lunatic" and Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik as a "leftist sheriff" who "was one of the first to start in on the liberal attack." Phillips urged tea party supporters to blame liberals for the attack on centrist Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona, who was shot through the head and is now fighting for her life, as a means of defending the tea party movement's recent electoral gains.

 

[trysail]

The point I was trying to make is that whether it's Helter Skelter and a violent paranoid schizophrenic interpreting or a heavy metal cd calling for violence or suicide or anything like that it will be only the fringe of the mentally/emotionally unstable that find deep meaning in it.

Even if the "Republican party" as represented by Palin and the Teabaggers gives some false sense of permission, again, only the truly disturbed think it is more than rhetoric. So in that sense it is no different from someone committing suicide after listening to a cd calling for one to kill themselves, and if I'm not mistaken, the court has ruled on that and held the artists not responsible.

I do think it is reprehensible to use violent rhetoric and imagery in "mainstream" politics and I hope it does Palin damage, but she didn't pull the trigger.

And as far as I know, we still have yet to know exactly why he did it. Could be because he harbored festering anger that she did not answer and incomprehensible question he asked her a couple of years before at a rally and finally had had enough. Time will tell.

☝​

★★★★★

 

[mikey2much]

And yet you spent a lot of time with us

MIKEY

Theres a few reasons why you wont find my stories here. The 1st of them is I write underage sex. Like teens doing it. Cant post it. 2ND REASON: Folks steal everythings thats not on fire. 3RD REASON: There are better places to post stories. The quality of the wares here isnt all that good.

If this site won't post your work, why do you support it with your time and input? As for people stealing our work, I don't think you would lose much of value if your work were to be copied or stolen.

In a way we are all just writing on the bathroom wall, it is the need to be read not the need for reward that drives most of us here.

I see your post all the time and they are mostly the same old shit. I need to read something you wrote to form a better judgement of your insights on people.

 

[Pure]

For every American problem,

there is an American solution:


PM ET AZ

Gun Rights Group Wants State To Provide Firearms Training For Lawmakers

A cofounder of the pro-gun-rights Arizona Citizens Defense League tells Slate's Dave Weigel that the group has drafted legislation requiring the state to train members of Congress and their staff in the use of firearms.

Per Weigel:


"Our model legislation is called the Giffords-Zimmerman Act," said Heller. (Giffords staffer Gabriel Zimmerman, 30, was killed on Saturday.) "It would require the Arizona Department of Public Safety to provide firearms training, using firearms confiscated by the state, to members of Congress and people who work for them. Facilities would be made available to them in a way that wouldn't interfere with the training of police and other safety employees."

Heller speculated that a response like this could prevent future attacks on members of Congress. "I don't think having a firearm on her would do Congresswoman Giffords any good," said Heller.

"However, if it was known that members of her staff were well armed, that very well could have dissuaded [the shooter]."