"Off with their Heads!" 'Thugs for hire riot in London...

[amicus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11969030

I scanned the forum to see if anyone had mentioned the incident and then read through several accounts before just selecting the most recent, timewise...

I still might not have written a Post, but I heard Stuart Varney, a Fox Business contributor mention that he had been educated in London, in the 60's and the government footed all his bills, tuition, room and board. He also said that only two percent went to college then, but now, 30 to 40 percent are getting student loans and the government just cannot afford it and tripled the cost of going to college...still with government loans...but...

I am not really an alarmist about European affairs, but riots in France and Greece, a vote before the Irish today on severe cuts and more cuts coming as the social democracies of Europe seem to be coming apart at the seams....?

Amicus

 

[oggbashan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11969030

I scanned the forum to see if anyone had mentioned the incident and then read through several accounts before just selecting the most recent, timewise...

I still might not have written a Post, but I heard Stuart Varney, a Fox Business contributor mention that he had been educated in London, in the 60's and the government footed all his bills, tuition, room and board. He also said that only two percent went to college then, but now, 30 to 40 percent are getting student loans and the government just cannot afford it and tripled the cost of going to college...still with government loans...but...

I am not really an alarmist about European affairs, but riots in France and Greece, a vote before the Irish today on severe cuts and more cuts coming as the social democracies of Europe seem to be coming apart at the seams....?

Amicus

The problem with student funding in the UK is that the previous government set a target of 50% of all young people going to university.

That was unrealistic, even with turning all vacational colleges into 'universities', and unaffordable. The loan system that had gradually replaced outright grants was effectively a tax on graduates IF they earned enough to repay the loan. If, after 30 years, they hadn't reached a high enough salary, the loan was written off.

The number of places at UK universities has increased massively in the last five years, but the demand is greater than the number of places. Universities couldn't fund the sustained increase, nor could government, so something had to change.

At present there is a maximum charge for tuition per year. That maximum is set by the government and wasn't enough to cover the real cost. The new system, agreed in Parliament yesterday evening, gradually raises the maximum universities can charge for tuition from about £3,000 to a possible £9,000. The students won't have to pay that in advance if they can't afford it - it would be added to their loan, which now would not start to be paid off until the are earning a higher salary than is needed at present.

When university education was reserved for a small minority, less than 10%, then the government and city halls could afford to provide financial support to students. Now that students are close to 40% of the population of their age, that is unaffordable.

Current students, who will NOT have to pay the proposed increases, and school children who will, are upset at the proposals which have not be properly sold/explained to those who will be affected.

As for the riots, the vast majority of demonstrators, in London and elsewhere, were peaceful, noisy, but well behaved. A minority of the demonstrators were not. Many of those who attacked the police and caused damage were NOT students, were NOT potential students, but people who see any demonstration, for whatever cause, as an excuse for criminal behaviour. It is thought that several of London's street gangs used the demonstration as a cover for trying to excel each other in mayhem.

Some of the rioters had been seen causing damage at demonstrations against the Iraq war, against capitalism, against anything that provides an excuse to attach police and property. Having said that - at least some of the damage was caused by people who are genuine students. There is genuine anger among students about the proposed changes.

My daughters went through university as changes were being made to the system. We had to provide financial assistance to all three, but the cost to us and them became higher with each daughter, despite all three taking courses that were substantial and had economic benefit to the UK. The cost of the last daughter's medical degree was about £30,000. It would cost a student MORE now, and possibly much more under the newly agreed system. That cost would have to be covered by a loan, and would eventually have to be repaid by the student for years after qualification.

Og

 

[amicus]

Good morning, Oggbashan, my friend, if I may address you as such, and thank you for a civil and informative response.

As a newspaper journalist for 30 years, perhaps you can forgive my 'flowery' headline, as competition between reporters for front page space and 'column inches', was often times determined by the drawing power of a hard headline.

Only in recent times in this country, has government factored into the realm of higher education. When I attended university, I paid part and the GI Bill paid for part, so working my way through college was a necessity as no student loans were available.

It is a strange world indeed, I helped, as I could, with my oldest daughters path to a Master's degree in Psychology, and I am now partially financing my youngest daughters quest for a degree but even so she will be in debt to the government for many years of her productive life.

I have some anger at the current state of higher education here, as tenured Professors and instructors are paid like government employees, at wage rates much higher, almost twice that of an equitable civilian or private market place employee.

There was never a thought in my generation about government funding education. Due to illness in the family, I dropped out of school in what we call the 6th grade here, and went to work to support the family. I returned to school and caught up a few years later...but it all seemed so childish to me after having worked for a living for two years and school was just a joke.

Education is of the utmost importance, I grant that easily, but I remain of the opinion that the private market place and the desire and ambition of the individual student should determine both the quantity and quality of education based on a students ability to pay.

I told myself I would not go in this direction as I know full well what most feel about the necessity of government managing and providing education to all. But...sighs...the promise of education provided to all providing a high paying white collar employment is just not a reality.

I also suspect you will not agree with me concerning the content of modern education. There are only so many opportunities for those schooled in the 'social sciences', to find employment outside the government sector.

My daughter's degree in psychology is being put to use in an industrial corporation that researches weapons use in both military and civil disturbances and is really just a CYA for the corporation to fulfill government requirements.

I may mistakenly compare the assault on the Royals, as an assault on the President here in the US, and here, that would be one hell of big thing and I rather suspect it might be in the UK?

I have a dreadful 'feeling' that has accumulated over the years, that we, the UK, Euro, and the US, are on the verge of a gargantuan change in world behaviour that I foresee as a downward spiral into darkness.

The Northern and Eastern US is undergoing what seems to be a more severe than normal winter and the weather moves from us to you, dear Ogg, and I saw snow in the reports in London and I suspect you have more on the way and below zero (F) temperatures are in our midwest moving to the east. Bundle up, Ogg, and stoke the fires!

Amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The present system in America is untenable because of the costs for health insurance, pensions, affirmative action, and 'special education.' Its entirely a matter of time before all of the entitlements collide stalking resources.

 

[amicus]

Agreed.

Does that mean Euro style riots are just around the proverbial corner for da US?

James?



ami

 

[oggbashan]

...

I may mistakenly compare the assault on the Royals, as an assault on the President here in the US, and here, that would be one hell of big thing and I rather suspect it might be in the UK?

...Amicus

I'm just going to pick out one item of your post because it is important.

Whether the attack on Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall was a planned attack on them, or just on a Rolls-Royce trying to make its way through a crowd of protestors who had already broken away from the main demonstration, I'm not yet sure.

It has been condemned by almost everyone involved with the campaign against student fee increases because it alienates the public. Prince Charles and his Prince's Trust work hard for disadvantaged youngsters, particularly in inner cities. He is far more popular with young people than the media admit. That attack has damaged the students' cause, as many of them have admitted.

What is obvious is that someone in the police and security services blundered badly. Any vehicle trying to go on that route would have been attacked, not just that particular one, because there was realistically no way through the crowd. There were other routes available that would not have met any demonstrators.

Og

 

[amicus]

The video reports were somewhat startling as they reminded me, and I am sure many others, of the scene in the film, "Patriot Games", with Harrison Ford, where the Royals were attacked by Irish dissidents as they were being driven along a local byway.

I read several different accounts and it seems there were four different routes the convoy could have taken but all were on the periphery of ongoing riots.

It troubles me somewhat that such an incident was allowed to happen; although I do comprehend the difficulty of security procedures, certainly there could have been measures to prevent the rioters from coming anywhere near the Royals and surely the preceding security patrols should have exercised more control.

Meanwhile...a week of heavy rain is still pelting my rooftop and that will change to snow as it proceeds to the East and eventually across the Atlantic. Not that it matters...but we had almost no Spring this year, an abbreviated summer, my garden suffered, and an early autumn with a harsher than usual early winter.

Weather...over which we have no control, is always a factor in matters large and small in the affairs of man...is it not?

Amicus

 

[samsmooth]

Charles & Camilla lead a pretty sedate life I imagine and this probably excited the living Sh*t* out of them!

I bet they went at it like rabbits when they got home !!!!!!

Not my cup of tea but heyho!

 

[amicus]

Heh, Emerald Isle...okay...welcome...and your Post should satisfy the Porn oriented do-gooders that have no thoughts beyond their genitals. Thank you!

Ah, as I type, more graphic video's of the attack are being aired...egads!

amicus

 

[TE999]

As Ogg said, anybody in a Roller would attract the professional anarchistic rioters as a cow flop draws flies. I'm sure those thugs didn't even know who was riding in it, they just like to attack symbols of authority or wealth, break things and cause trouble.

The rates to attend UK Uni in the future are more than doubling, which should cut down on the flood of 'useless' degrees that equip the graduate for nothing more than a minimum wage job anyway. It wouldn't hurt to raise the tuition's in this country a few thou per semester to discourage that 'degree for the sake of one' nonsense.

Whether further restrictions on government largess is the harbinger of riots to come is anyone's guess, but after the protester's have been bailed out and the broken glass swept up conditions will have irrevocably changed regardless.

If there's any lesson we can learn from Europe and the UK is TAANSTAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch), someone has to pay for it somewhere and the payers are beginning to tire of supporting the payees through government thievery (read taxation).

Like it or not, the gravy train's been derailed and the party's over.

 

[oggbashan]

As Ogg said, anybody in a Roller would attract the professional anarchistic rioters as a cow flop draws flies. I'm sure those thugs didn't even know who was riding in it, they just like to attack symbols of authority or wealth, break things and cause trouble.

...

Some years ago I was driving through Central London when I encountered a demostration against a financial summit. I was crossing Westminster Bridge when a large group of protesters broke away and started attacking cars.

My car wasn't touched. Why?

I was driving a twenty-year old rusty heap that belonged to my eldest daughter.

The cars that were attacked were modern high-value cars. I presume none of the protesters thought that my car deserved the politics of envy.

Og

PS. Or maybe it was the starting handle I was clutching?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Agreed.

Does that mean Euro style riots are just around the proverbial corner for da US?

James?



ami

A local mental health facility just fired 199 employees. The money aint there to pay the staff, and pay every other socialist worker in the state.

What I expect to see happen is for the respective unions to battle tooth & nail for funding as the pie shrinks away. The perfessers will be out in the streets NOT the students.

 

[ishtat]

The problem with student funding in the UK is that the previous government set a target of 50% of all young people going to university.

That was unrealistic, even with turning all vacational colleges into '
Og

My bolds Og. Surely you meant vocational: or did you?

 

[samsmooth]

the Porn oriented do-gooders that have no thoughts beyond their genitals.

Do these people exist?



Education is a privilege not a right ...... I remember when a Diploma was worth something, now you need a Masters to work in McDonalds!!!!!



(slight exaggeration but you get my point?)

 

[amicus]

Yes, Samsmooth, I get the point quite well...but...it is not a new phenomena, way back in the 70's Oregon State Grads were taking jobs as Log Truck drivers because their desgrees were useless, as most are yet today.

The root problem in Europe is the same as it is here, Union workers, Teachers included, government workers and subsidized industries, especially of late, the 'green'industry, are all funded by government and expect and receive wages and salaries and benefits far beyond what the private sector employees receive and...the private sector pays the freight for all the parasites.

Simple mathematics tells one that the productive private sector can only support so many government workers before the system collapses. It is collapsing in Europe and it will here too, soon, unless we reduce the size of government and Unions by half; and that will just forestall the inevitable collapse.

It is sad...but inevitable.

Amicus

 

[samsmooth]

I hear ye. we're in the midst of the biggest crisis in our history and how many public jobs were cut in the recent budget..... none! Salaries capped at a max of €250,000 ..... quarter of a million for a civil servant! where would you get it????




Buts its Saturday and my head hurts from bad news so only lovin on my mind for the duration of the weekend

 

[oggbashan]

...

The root problem in Europe is the same as it is here, Union workers, Teachers included, government workers and subsidized industries, especially of late, the 'green'industry, are all funded by government and expect and receive wages and salaries and benefits far beyond what the private sector employees receive and...the private sector pays the freight for all the parasites.

...

Amicus

You are out of date, as far as the UK is concerned - again.

The excessive power of trade unions in the UK was broken by PM Margaret Thatcher. The wages and salaries and benefits of gov't workers (except the big fat cats) has been eroded and their pensions have been downgraded, and will be downgraded further - IF they keep their jobs. Redundancy of public sector workers, or transfer to private sector contractors, is common. There are few 'jobs-for-life' in the UK's public sector except perhaps at Universities. Even the Church of England has stopped appointing vicars for life.

Og

 

[colddiesel]

Og's Bollocks

The wages and salaries and benefits of gov't workers (except the big fat cats) has been eroded and their pensions have been downgraded, and will be downgraded further - IF they keep their jobs. Redundancy of public sector workers, or transfer to private sector contractors, is common. There are few 'jobs-for-life' in the UK's public sector except perhaps at Universities. Even the Church of England has stopped appointing vicars for life.

Og

Complete and utter bollocks from start to finish. The Blair/Brown Labour governments added 600,000 public servants in ten years about 12% in numbers and total public service salaries advanced even faster. Services got less and worse.

Redundancy of public service workers in UK is extremely rare and transfers out of the sector almost as rare.

The only thing you got right is that public service pensions will be reduced ...because the country cannot afford to pay them.

 

[oggbashan]

Complete and utter bollocks from start to finish. The Blair/Brown Labour governments added 600,000 public servants in ten years about 12% in numbers and total public service salaries advanced even faster. Services got less and worse.

Redundancy of public service workers in UK is extremely rare and transfers out of the sector almost as rare.

The only thing you got right is that public service pensions will be reduced ...because the country cannot afford to pay them.

British Telecom was part of the Post Office, then a branch of the Civil Service, employing HALF of the total Civil Service. It was made into a Nationalised Industry and then a PLC. Parts of BT were hived off to other subsidiary PLCs and the employees lost their 'civil service' benefits in the processes. The size of BT's staff has shrunk to less than a third of what it was when it left the Civil Service.

The Ministry of Defence (Navy) employed tens of thousands of people in Dockyards at Chatham, Portsmouth, Devonport and Rosyth with other smaller establishments. Chatham is now a historic tourist attraction. The remaining naval support facilities employ less in total than were employed in Chatham alone and much of what is done, is done by contractors, not government employees.

Og

PS. My local district and county councils have made people redundant last financial year, and this one. More will follow from April.

PPS.
Q. Why can't the country afford pensions, state or otherwise?

A1. Because successive governments NEVER invested state employee's contributions and ran a Ponzi scheme where current contributors pay for retired employee's benefits. British Telecom and the Post Office were supposed to be paid a sum from the Treasury to cover the pension liabilities they inherited from the Civil Service. Were those sums paid in full? Of course not. The shareholders were expected to bear the cost despite the government getting a massive amount from the sale of BT.

A2. UK pension funds were in a strong position until a) the government allowed employers, including themselves, to take pension holidays when the funds were in good health and b) to raid pension funds for 'investment' and c) taxed contributions to insurance and pensions AND on the profits made by pension funds on shares and other investments (and of course pensions can be taxed when paid out) - so pensioners have paid once on contribution, again on interest on that contribution and thirdly when they get the pension. Years ago, pension contributions were tax-free, but now they are not, so people paying for a pension are now taxed FOUR times. And of course because of the banking crisis - d) share prices and dividends dropped, devaluing pension pots, and e) because of low interest rates, annuities cost more to produce less.

The 'gold-plated' government pensions used to pay out lower pensions than good private schemes until successive governments decided that raiding pension funds by taxation was great for them. Now the 'gold-plated' schemes are under attack, after the government has already devalued private pension schemes, because 'gold-plated' is too expensive.

Even now, the average Civil Service and local government pensioner recieves pensions barely above pension credit level. There are high-profile exceptions, but the majority of pensioners are not receiving a gold standard pension, more like a brass one.

 

[amicus]

Being 'out of date' is not a kind remark as I, more than most on this forum, make an effort to be up to date on European and British affairs, as much as possible as a part time endeavor.

In general, I perceive, with adequate knowledge, that all Euro Nations are social democracies more or less. If I were just to repeat the general attitude of news media here, they all agree that Europe in general is going to suffer the failure of quasi socialism in all the failing nations.

It is happening here, when the best and highest paying jobs are with government agencies, high and low, and when teachers unions rule the roost in terms of income and tenure...well...when the public sector trumps the private sector, decline is inevitable.

ami

 

[oggbashan]

Amicus, referring to 'Europe' as if it is an entity, is wrong. It is as wrong as referring to 'The Americas' and assuming that everything is the same in every country in North and South America.

Despite the Euro, possibly because of the Euro, national differences in government and politics are wide. Even in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland there are significant differences in governance and laws between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. If you consider the special status of the Isle of Man and even the differences between the Channel Islands, there are five or six or more governments responsible for different things.

The nations of Europe have many differences from the UK but all are democracies. Each country's people decide how they should be governed and none share the US's system of checks and balances. They have their own.

This week there was an historic change. German troops are to be based within France for the first time since 1945. That this is even possible is an indication that Europe's future can outlive its past.

Every time you generalise about 'Europe' you are showing your ignorance, as much as I would if I were to assume that state laws in Texas and Rhode Island are identical.

There are many countries that I have been to that I would like to claim some knowledge about, but those countries have changed since I visited them. The Yemen isn't as it was when I was there in the 1960s, nor is Australia. The past is a different country.

Og

 

[TE999]

Some years ago I was driving through Central London when I encountered a demostration against a financial summit. I was crossing Westminster Bridge when a large group of protesters broke away and started attacking cars.

My car wasn't touched. Why?

I was driving a twenty-year old rusty heap that belonged to my eldest daughter.

The cars that were attacked were modern high-value cars. I presume none of the protesters thought that my car deserved the politics of envy.

Og

PS. Or maybe it was the starting handle I was clutching?

Your imposing visage armed with a starting handle would be enough incentive for me to begin looking for easier prey...maybe a balding pasty-faced PM in a Jag saloon.

 

[colddiesel]

British Telecom was part of the Post Office, then a branch of the Civil Service, employing HALF of the total Civil Service. It was made into a Nationalised Industry and then a PLC. Parts of BT were hived off to other subsidiary PLCs and the employees lost their 'civil service' benefits in the processes. The size of BT's staff has shrunk to less than a third of what it was when it left the Civil Service.

The Ministry of Defence (Navy) employed tens of thousands of people in Dockyards at Chatham, Portsmouth, Devonport and Rosyth with other smaller establishments. Chatham is now a historic tourist attraction. The remaining naval support facilities employ less in total than were employed in Chatham alone and much of what is done, is done by contractors, not government employees.

Og

So if Telecom and Defence support services have all been privatised and reduced how on earth did the total public service numbers still increase by 600,000 in ten years which you know they have and have not denied. All you have done Og is emphasise that the ridiculous increases in public service hirings were in real terms even greater than I contended.

I have been employed Og in International recruitment for years and when looking for people in the UK it is relatively straightforward to recruit people from the private sector but almost impossible from the public because of their addiction to their unaffordable indexed pensions.

You seem Og to portray yourself as a seeker of the middle road in politics and a compromiser between extremes; what you really are is an appeaser of big government and the Nanny state socialism of Blair and Brown. As I said before your arguments are utter bollocks with no foundation in fact.

 

[patrick1]

A small reminder: the uk is cutting 400,000 to 750,000 pubolic sector jobs in the next five years. They're doing this to cut a deficit chiefly caused by the impact of a recession, a recession which was in turn caused by phenomenal incompetence in the private sector banking industry, which had to be rescued at the cost of billions by the public sector.

For myself, I've been self-employed for thirty years, but I don't begrudge the people I know who have a decent pension. Why is it a matter of praise for the private sector that they don't pay decent pensions? (except to their most senior employees, who have amazing pension pots: as I recall, Fred Goodwin, disgraced banker, one of the men who got us into this mess, has a pension pot of £16 million just for himself - in what way was his pension affordable but not the average nurse's? Or teacher's?)

Hi ho.

patrick

 

[oggbashan]

So if Telecom and Defence support services have all been privatised and reduced how on earth did the total public service numbers still increase by 600,000 in ten years which you know they have and have not denied. All you have done Og is emphasise that the ridiculous increases in public service hirings were in real terms even greater than I contended.

I have been employed Og in International recruitment for years and when looking for people in the UK it is relatively straightforward to recruit people from the private sector but almost impossible from the public because of their addiction to their unaffordable indexed pensions.

You seem Og to portray yourself as a seeker of the middle road in politics and a compromiser between extremes; what you really are is an appeaser of big government and the Nanny state socialism of Blair and Brown. As I said before your arguments are utter bollocks with no foundation in fact.

What has changed, apart from the Labour governments increase in quangos, is what is defined as 'public service'. The statistics aren't on the same bases. Many of those now defined as 'public service' never had and still haven't got the indexed pensions.

Most 'Unaffordable' pensions, public or private, are only now unaffordable because of decisions by successive governments, Conservative and Labour, that have seriously damaged the pensions industry in the UK - before the banking crisis made the situation much worse.

I, and my employers private and public, made the maximum contributions allowed by the Treasury at the time. If the governments hadn't changed the rules, people in my position, whether employed in the public or private sectors, could still have reasonable pensions that were affordable.

The successive governments KNEW that the decisions they took would damage future pensions but for short-term political reasons they wouldn't raise income taxation to pay for their increased spending. Future pensioners were the easy target. Fifteen years ago the UK had nearly the best-funded private and public pension schemes in Europe, easily able to meet future payments. Nothing was 'unaffordable' or 'gold-plated'. The pensions crisis in the UK was caused by government action and then made far worse by the financial meltdown.

Many years ago when I was looking for a career after qualification I was offered employment in the private and public sectors. The salaries offered were similar but the public ones were lower. The pension schemes, and I did consider the pension schemes as part of the remuneration, were also similar. Both private and public sectors offered index-linked final salary schemes but the private sector, as well as offering a higher salary, offered low-cost mortgages and loans that the public sector didn't.

Some of the public sector schemes required employee contribution to the pension schemes; some didn't but offered a salary lower by the difference - the effect was the same - about 6% of your salary went into the scheme with 9% from the employer. All the private sector schemes required contribution from salary at 6% but from a larger salary.

Our local councils have pension schemes that are underfunded and will be a burden on the local taxpayer, yet only one third of their employees are members of their schemes. Why? If public sector pensions were so 'gold-plated' why did two-thirds of employees chose not to join but to contribute to a privately funded scheme instead? Because if you retired at 60, instead of at age 65, your pension payment would be reduced by a third - for life. Not the pension you would have been entitled to at age 65, but the pension your contributions entitled you to at age 60. No wonder so many local government pensioners also receive pension credits.

Why are the council schemes underfunded? Because the government allowed the councils to take contribution holidays in the good years, to stop paying the employers' contributions. Now the lean years have come and the pensions are 'unaffordable'.

The state and the banking crisis have seriously damaged private pension schemes so that they provide worse benefits than the state schemes when they used to provide greater benefits. Now the state schemes are being attacked. It is all bullshit, trying to divert people's attention away from the politicians' theft in taxation of people's savings.

The only gold-plated pension schemes are those paid to Members of Parliament which outstrip anything paid to the vast majority of the private and public sectors.

Og