Serious - Love without Sex

[jacdmolay]

My wife & I are both "mature" - I am 56 & she is 54.
We married 5 years ago - my 2nd marriage and her 1st.

We married within 8 months of meeting each other. I had come out of a relationship of 4 years with a woman 12 yrs younger than me. My wife had been out of any relationships for about 18 months.

My wife explained to me that she was "peri-menopausal" and had had some "problems" with lubrication.

The sexual relationship was not great (from my point of view) but there was one at first.

The lady actually proposed to me but I was thinking along the same lines as well.

We got (and get) on well at an intellectual, spiritual & emotional level.

The "kicker" is that we have not had any form of intimate relationship for the last 9 months nor have I seen her naked above the ankles or below the neck for about 11 months.

My wife is fully into menopause - hot flushes, slight memory loss. She also suffers from long term eczema (mainly on her hands) which makes cooking and handling chemicals difficult.

Sex is no longer discussed nor even referred to obliquely. If I bring up the subject then I made to feel that I am imposing or somehow "obsessed".

My difficulty is that my wife is a beautiful woman who is not sexually inexperienced ( she confided to me that she had had 30+ lovers in her past) but now she will not dress or undress in my presence, will reject any "intimate" touching" and dislikes any refernce to sex in any context.

I have tried to be understanding about this aspect of our life but the more understanding that I am the more the status quo (zero sex, zero intimacy, zero eroticism) is maintained.

I like sex, I love the erotic and I am tired of being made to feel that those interests are "bad".

I have had partners in the past who were peri-menopausal, menopausal and post-menopausal but I have never encountered this "neutered" response before.

My wife is o/s visiting relatives at the moment and, not for the first time, I have been considering packing up and leaving.

I am stuck with the question though : is leaving someone you love because of their attitude to sex pure selfishness?

My wife doesn't take any form of HRT and I can understand that position.
She is now at the point hormonally where she has no menses and allows her hair to grow everywhere unrestrained - legs, underarms, top lip ( she has her top lip waxed from time to time).

I sometimes feel like I am living with my mother - no sex, no alcohol under her roof.

I love her as a person - she is sweet, charitable and has a great social conscience.

As a domestic partner I would have more fun "flatting" with a man - at least I could drink alcohol occasionally at home and be open about my interest in the form and eroticism of females.

Any constructive comments and/or advice would be appreciated.

 

[_me_]

My wife & I are both "mature" - I am 56 & she is 54.
We married 5 years ago - my 2nd marriage and her 1st.

We married within 8 months of meeting each other. I had come out of a relationship of 4 years with a woman 12 yrs younger than me. My wife had been out of any relationships for about 18 months.

My wife explained to me that she was "peri-menopausal" and had had some "problems" with lubrication.

The sexual relationship was not great (from my point of view) but there was one at first.

The lady actually proposed to me but I was thinking along the same lines as well.

We got (and get) on well at an intellectual, spiritual & emotional level.

The "kicker" is that we have not had any form of intimate relationship for the last 9 months nor have I seen her naked above the ankles or below the neck for about 11 months.

My wife is fully into menopause - hot flushes, slight memory loss. She also suffers from long term eczema (mainly on her hands) which makes cooking and handling chemicals difficult.

Sex is no longer discussed nor even referred to obliquely. If I bring up the subject then I made to feel that I am imposing or somehow "obsessed".

My difficulty is that my wife is a beautiful woman who is not sexually inexperienced ( she confided to me that she had had 30+ lovers in her past) but now she will not dress or undress in my presence, will reject any "intimate" touching" and dislikes any refernce to sex in any context.

I have tried to be understanding about this aspect of our life but the more understanding that I am the more the status quo (zero sex, zero intimacy, zero eroticism) is maintained.

I like sex, I love the erotic and I am tired of being made to feel that those interests are "bad".

I have had partners in the past who were peri-menopausal, menopausal and post-menopausal but I have never encountered this "neutered" response before.

My wife is o/s visiting relatives at the moment and, not for the first time, I have been considering packing up and leaving.

I am stuck with the question though : is leaving someone you love because of their attitude to sex pure selfishness?

My wife doesn't take any form of HRT and I can understand that position.
She is now at the point hormonally where she has no menses and allows her hair to grow everywhere unrestrained - legs, underarms, top lip ( she has her top lip waxed from time to time).

I sometimes feel like I am living with my mother - no sex, no alcohol under her roof.

I love her as a person - she is sweet, charitable and has a great social conscience.

As a domestic partner I would have more fun "flatting" with a man - at least I could drink alcohol occasionally at home and be open about my interest in the form and eroticism of females.

Any constructive comments and/or advice would be appreciated.

Gosh, I feel for you.

From your wife's perspective the menopause can be a horrible thing to deal with. It is the end of an era for a woman & can be hard to deal with for some.
Do you talk to her about how she's feeling?

I am currently going through the menopause - early onset due to chemo, I was given HRT and found it to be evil although some wouldn't be without it!

By letting her hair grow everywhere it seems to me as if she's trying to look unattractive to you. Have you thought she may be suffering from depression?

Why won't she let you drink alcohol?

 

[jacdmolay]

Thank you for your consideration

"Dear Me" (couldn't help myself) -

I have tried to raise her process for the last 4 years. Unfortunately with such a personal and gender specific issue there is great difficulty - any :discussion" can become a confrontation because of the emotional content on both sides.

I have had the experience of having a partner go through early menopause - she was a former ballerina and aerobics instructor with an incredibly "tough"/toned physique but she suffered acute cystic fibrosis on her ovaries. Finally she underwent an acute episode and emergency surgery resulted in a complete hysterectomy at the age of 42. She was devestated vut we perservered and sought advice and eventually she commenced HRT. The net effect was that it is very difficult to get the hormone balance right and she started to develop a more rounded figure and her breastd rnlarged ( too much oestrogen for her particular system).

She didn't like her bodily changes - having been extremely body conscious and discplined physically since age 5. Emotionally she blamed me for "turning her into a housewife" - we were living together at the time.

I left after she started an affair with a younger guy - no doubt trying to reclaim her sexuality and self image.

I thereafter met a number of women of many age groups - younger and older.

I was in a fairly unique position for a man - I was in my 40's, self-employed & well used to cooking and running a domestic situation. I had had a vasectomy towards the end of my marriage as my then wife ( an unreconstucted feminist in the 70s at Uni where we met) decided to have 3 children in 4 years to satisfy her "nesting" instinct. My wife had previously had an abortion without telling me for a number of years as children did not fit in with her professional career path at that time.

Long story short, 9 years later I met and fell in love with a woman in her early 30s. We became engaged after 4 years and a reversal of the vasectomy became a big issue (amongst many). I felt that I couldn't waste someone else's fertile years ( heard too many stories about women in their 30s-40swho stayed with a partner only to find that when the relationship ended so had their chance at being a mother). I ended that relationship and met my wife 18 mths later.

As to why no alcohol - very pertinent. I have been on a journey learning that women are people and that people have histories and learned emotional responses. I should explain that I was "home-schooled" until 12 yo and my Mother was my teacher and a wise figure.

It took a long time for me to allow women off the pedestal I had built in my mind about them and to allow them to just be people with issues like all human beings.

My wife's issue with alcohol is simple - her first boyfriend and live in partner got drunk and beat her up sending her back to her parents in a small provincial city in New Zealand. Her reaction to alcohol use by partners in the home is visceral.

I like to drink red wine with a cheese platter - no more. As the issue of lack of intimacy gained some emotional traction between us the disquiet which I felt was turned into an issue about alcohol - so I stopped totally to end that as an "issue" but the discussions about what she was going through and sexuality degenerated even more. Alcohol was simply removed as an issue of avoidance to enable a true discussion but it never happened.

"Me" my real issue after a number of years with this lady is simply can I reject her love over an issue of physical/emotional needs? If we had been married for a number of years and she had developed an illness rendering her incapable of physical intimacy, I would have no problems with acceptance and caring for her. I guess that it is the unilateral ending of both of our sex lives that I find hard to accept.

It's like she just hung up her ovaries and that part of her life (which I never shared) ended.

I love this woman but I am having an inordinately difficult time relating to her as a woman. Love the human - can't find the woman.

I love women and I love sex and the erotic. Short of castration I cannot see that changing and I don't want just a friend I want a lover.

Can I leave someone I love to enjoy a physical life?

 

[operaBaritone]

Can I leave someone I love to enjoy a physical life?

Short answer: yes, sexual compatibility is a MUST in a relationship.

Longer answer: Is it selfish? Depends on your definition of "selfish". You are ALLOWED to be selfish in a relationship in a certain sense, it's not a one way street. One part of a relationship is to make you feel fulfilled and feel happy (not always, but it shouldn't be a constant lack).

Humans are sexual beings. Honestly I would say that a total lack of libido is a psychology condition that should be addressed (I know some people identify as asexual, and my statement is very general, and it'd be a case by case basis of course, but I would still seriously worry about someone's mental health should they be barren of libido). We can know this easily, as when men are deprived of testosterone the body responds with a potentially deep depression (hence castration is a REALLY bad idea).

I admit, I'm a young guy and I can imagine someone discrediting my opinion because of my age. However I think I'm right, and I won't leave my view just because someone thinks I'm wrong.

Sex is part of life. Losing libido happens, and being without sexual desire should be frightening to the person experiencing it. I at one point repressed all sexual desire, and the end result was a psychological breakdown that took years of therapy to fix and I STILL have negative thought patterns that affect me every day.

By letting her hair grow everywhere it seems to me as if she's trying to look unattractive to you. Have you thought she may be suffering from depression?

I would strongly expect that some form of mild to major depression is at work here. I suffer from depression heavy bipolar, when I was depressed sex was the furthest thing from my mind (though it sort of was anyway since I had repressed myself to the fullest extent humanly possible). I was repressed thoroughly enough that I did not masturbate until I was 20 years old. This is NOT normal, you are NOT obsessive for wanting sex, you have EVERY RIGHT to ask and even demand sex, just as she has the right to say no, and you have EVERY RIGHT to make an ultimatum.

Be well sir, I wish you the best!
opera

 

[Sensualdreamer]

...I don't want just a friend I want a lover....

Tho I read each of your posts, what stood out was that comment.

I'll say this much, your wifes refusal is giving you a reason to be unfaithful. Does that mean you SHOULD be unfaithful? I don't think so, but should that happen she would have to shoulder some of the blame. Yes ultimately it would be on you, but it's bound to happen if she's refusing.

Has the lack of intimacy impacted any other areas of your marriage?

 

[operaBaritone]

After conversing with some of my sex-positive colleagues, I have come to the conclusion that at least pursuing the idea of an honest open relationship may be a fine solution. It sounds a priori like your wife would not agree... but fuck, people are hard to predict.

I'll say this much, your wifes refusal is giving you a reason to be unfaithful. Does that mean you SHOULD be unfaithful? I don't think so, but should that happen she would have to shoulder some of the blame. Yes ultimately it would be on you, but it's bound to happen if she's refusing.

Vehemently disagree. This is the same argument as blaming the rape victim for being raped logically. The blame for cheating is entirely on the cheating partner. While we can understand cheating in this case, it is not the wife's fault, there are other options.

opera

 

[_me_]

"Dear Me" (couldn't help myself) -

I have tried to raise her process for the last 4 years. Unfortunately with such a personal and gender specific issue there is great difficulty - any :discussion" can become a confrontation because of the emotional content on both sides.

I have had the experience of having a partner go through early menopause - she was a former ballerina and aerobics instructor with an incredibly "tough"/toned physique but she suffered acute cystic fibrosis on her ovaries. Finally she underwent an acute episode and emergency surgery resulted in a complete hysterectomy at the age of 42. She was devestated vut we perservered and sought advice and eventually she commenced HRT. The net effect was that it is very difficult to get the hormone balance right and she started to develop a more rounded figure and her breastd rnlarged ( too much oestrogen for her particular system).

She didn't like her bodily changes - having been extremely body conscious and discplined physically since age 5. Emotionally she blamed me for "turning her into a housewife" - we were living together at the time.

I left after she started an affair with a younger guy - no doubt trying to reclaim her sexuality and self image.

I thereafter met a number of women of many age groups - younger and older.

I was in a fairly unique position for a man - I was in my 40's, self-employed & well used to cooking and running a domestic situation. I had had a vasectomy towards the end of my marriage as my then wife ( an unreconstucted feminist in the 70s at Uni where we met) decided to have 3 children in 4 years to satisfy her "nesting" instinct. My wife had previously had an abortion without telling me for a number of years as children did not fit in with her professional career path at that time.

Long story short, 9 years later I met and fell in love with a woman in her early 30s. We became engaged after 4 years and a reversal of the vasectomy became a big issue (amongst many). I felt that I couldn't waste someone else's fertile years ( heard too many stories about women in their 30s-40swho stayed with a partner only to find that when the relationship ended so had their chance at being a mother). I ended that relationship and met my wife 18 mths later.

As to why no alcohol - very pertinent. I have been on a journey learning that women are people and that people have histories and learned emotional responses. I should explain that I was "home-schooled" until 12 yo and my Mother was my teacher and a wise figure.

It took a long time for me to allow women off the pedestal I had built in my mind about them and to allow them to just be people with issues like all human beings.

My wife's issue with alcohol is simple - her first boyfriend and live in partner got drunk and beat her up sending her back to her parents in a small provincial city in New Zealand. Her reaction to alcohol use by partners in the home is visceral.

I like to drink red wine with a cheese platter - no more. As the issue of lack of intimacy gained some emotional traction between us the disquiet which I felt was turned into an issue about alcohol - so I stopped totally to end that as an "issue" but the discussions about what she was going through and sexuality degenerated even more. Alcohol was simply removed as an issue of avoidance to enable a true discussion but it never happened.

"Me" my real issue after a number of years with this lady is simply can I reject her love over an issue of physical/emotional needs? If we had been married for a number of years and she had developed an illness rendering her incapable of physical intimacy, I would have no problems with acceptance and caring for her. I guess that it is the unilateral ending of both of our sex lives that I find hard to accept.

It's like she just hung up her ovaries and that part of her life (which I never shared) ended.

I love this woman but I am having an inordinately difficult time relating to her as a woman. Love the human - can't find the woman.

I love women and I love sex and the erotic. Short of castration I cannot see that changing and I don't want just a friend I want a lover.

Can I leave someone I love to enjoy a physical life?

I meant have you spoken to her about how she feels about the menopause?
It's a horrible thing which if you're suffering is awful.

Only you can answer the question of should you leave her. The menopause doesn't last forever
My sex drive is pretty high at the moment, but even if it wasn't I would never leave my hubby without, isn't that what marriage is about, taking the other person into consideration?

Do you have good communication with her?

 

[giventake65]

Wow. This is a really interesting topic. Would she be open to couples counseling -- or on her own?
Someone else raised the issue of depression. I have no idea what menopause does to a woman, mentally and emotionally, but if out of no fault of my own I was "de-sexed," I would have serious emotional issues.

 

[cumaholic21]

I'll say this much, your wifes refusal is giving you a reason to be unfaithful. Does that mean you SHOULD be unfaithful? I don't think so, but should that happen she would have to shoulder some of the blame. Yes ultimately it would be on you, but it's bound to happen if she's refusing.

Vehemently disagree. This is the same argument as blaming the rape victim for being raped logically. The blame for cheating is entirely on the cheating partner. While we can understand cheating in this case, it is not the wife's fault, there are other options.

I have to say, that's a pretty strained parallel opera. rape is an assault, an act of violence to a person's body and spirit - that includes sex. A person who is raped is no more responsible than a person who gets beaten is responsible. Infidelity is not an act of violence, it is a betrayal. Not acceptable, but entirely different. In this case, it seems to me that jac has been betrayed as well.

To be unfaithful to someone, you have to be in an exclusive relationship with them. If the relationship is exclusive, there has to be an obligation to meet your partners needs. I don't know that I'd go so far as to say withholding sex is a sort of abuse, but I don't know that I wouldn't. I would definitely say that it's a failure to live up to your side of the bargain.

I would tell jac NOT to cheat, unless he's really sure that he's ready to face the consequences. I would tell him that his needs are important and valid, and that if she isn't willing to recognize that and at least discuss ways to find a solution other than celibacy, he should ask himself if she really deserves his devotion.

 

[Sensualdreamer]

I have to say, that's a pretty strained parallel opera. rape is an assault, an act of violence to a person's body and spirit - that includes sex. A person who is raped is no more responsible than a person who gets beaten is responsible. Infidelity is not an act of violence, it is a betrayal. Not acceptable, but entirely different. In this case, it seems to me that jac has been betrayed as well.

To be unfaithful to someone, you have to be in an exclusive relationship with them. If the relationship is exclusive, there has to be an obligation to meet your partners needs. I don't know that I'd go so far as to say withholding sex is a sort of abuse, but I don't know that I wouldn't. I would definitely say that it's a failure to live up to your side of the bargain.

I would tell jac NOT to cheat, unless he's really sure that he's ready to face the consequences. I would tell him that his needs are important and valid, and that if she isn't willing to recognize that and at least discuss ways to find a solution other than celibacy, he should ask himself if she really deserves his devotion.

Thank you, your method of getting across what I was trying to say was clearer

 

[operaBaritone]

I have to say, that's a pretty strained parallel opera. rape is an assault, an act of violence to a person's body and spirit - that includes sex. A person who is raped is no more responsible than a person who gets beaten is responsible. Infidelity is not an act of violence, it is a betrayal. Not acceptable, but entirely different. In this case, it seems to me that jac has been betrayed as well.

I do not mean to parallel the severity of rape with the severity of infidelity, though I am also hesitant to make any comparison of traumatic events physical, mental or emotional. I mean to parallel the notion of assignment of blame.

I also don't mean to imply that the violence of rape in any way parallels the incidental emotional violation in infidelity.

I also refuse to assign a moral value to infidelity. In this case blame is only to mean the responsible individual, not the morality or immorality of that choice. The responsible individual is clearly the cheater, not the one who was cheated on.

I agree that Jac's wife betrayed Jac. and I refuse to assign a moral value to this as well. Jac's wife is responsible for her actions and inaction, Jac is responsible for his action and inaction.

I apologize to anyone who read my interpretation as rape is equivalent to infidelity, I was merely assessing the logical structure of blame, and do not give an equality between the two acts.

 

[_me_]

I would strongly expect that some form of mild to major depression is at work here.

I think so too.
My depression is under control but the way she is seems to me like it may be depression.

you have EVERY RIGHT to ask and even demand sex, just as she has the right to say no, and you have EVERY RIGHT to make an ultimatum.

I agree

 

[cumaholic21]

oops
did i overreact?

I do not mean to parallel the severity of rape with the severity of infidelity, though I am also hesitant to make any comparison of traumatic events physical, mental or emotional. I mean to parallel the notion of assignment of blame.

I also don't mean to imply that the violence of rape in any way parallels the incidental emotional violation in infidelity.

I also refuse to assign a moral value to infidelity. In this case blame is only to mean the responsible individual, not the morality or immorality of that choice. The responsible individual is clearly the cheater, not the one who was cheated on.

I agree that Jac's wife betrayed Jac. and I refuse to assign a moral value to this as well. Jac's wife is responsible for her actions and inaction, Jac is responsible for his action and inaction.

I apologize to anyone who read my interpretation as rape is equivalent to infidelity, I was merely assessing the logical structure of blame, and do not give an equality between the two acts.

 

[operaBaritone]

No of course not, I didn't clearly deliver my idea, so I am at fault if I caused a misunderstanding.

opera