Biden: "Every single great idea… has required government vision and government incent

[amicus]

Biden: "Every single great idea… has required government vision and government incent

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/da...blogs/dailypolitics+(Blogs/The+Daily+Politics)

"Every single great idea that has marked the 21st century, the 20th century and the 19th century has required government vision and government incentive,"

Truncated to fit the title space...

Biden: "Every single great idea… has required government vision and government incentive,"

bu•reau•crat (byo̵or′ə krat′)
noun
an official in a bureaucracy, esp. one who follows a routine in a mechanical, unimaginative way, insisting on proper forms, petty rules, etc.

The argument that government is a necessity to invention and innovation was presented by either Pure or Dr. Mabeuse some time back on the forum.

My refutation did not change the mind of either and I doubt this effort will either...however...read carefully and think about the true definition provided above concerning bureaucrats and bureaucracies and see if you don't find an internal conflict or contraction as it concerns creativity and imaginaton.

Deductive or inductive logic should convince you that the larger a bureaucracy becomes the less innovation or imagination in any given society.

Having said that; why do so many people continue to look to government to answer questions and solve problems?

I really don't get it.

Amicus

 

[JackLuis]

It is by strict adherence to "Petty Rules" which prevents the miss use of Government resources. It is also the way to insure "Quality of Service" to the great Unwashed, who are more likely to interface with Governments, by the efforts of the lowest paid professional group of High School graduates, who can put up withthe insessant need to kill every tree on the planet so the they can finish filling thier filing cabinets!

It is a sordid fact that you must have your paperwork perfect and you must push it through a seemingly resistant process, but if you use the petty rules one can achieve access to the benefits one has paid for. (Go ahead make the Or, things you never paid for argument.)

It is the price we pay to make Government work without having to count the silver after every shift.

 

[TE999]

Just the thought of 'Joe Bite Me' being a heartbeat away from becoming the POTUS gives me the willies. What a fool.

He must have skipped class the day they taught history. I'm sure the likes of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Lee DeForest, Guglielmo Marconi, Alexander Graham Bell, Jonas Salk, Alfred Nobel, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, et al would disagree with his statement.

 

[wet_special]

Just the thought of 'Joe Bite Me' being a heartbeat away from becoming the POTUS gives me the willies. What a fool.

He must have skipped class the day they taught history. I'm sure the likes of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Lee DeForest, Guglielmo Marconi, Alexander Graham Bell, Jonas Salk, Alfred Nobel, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, et al would disagree with his statement.

Facts, logic.. this is when we must note with mock surprise that this thread is not sexy. Nice work, amicus.

I too have tried to convince my friends who worship government that innovation is not the product of government.

Then they crow "DARPA!" and it's like why bother.. they'll just believe whatever they want.

big round titties.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Here is how it should read...

"Every single great blunder that has marked the 21st century, the 20th century and the 19th century has required government vision and government incentive,"

And I dare anyone to prove that isn't a true statement.

 

[Boxlicker101]

The VPOTUS has said some really dumb things, but this may be the worst, especially going back as far as the 19th Century. Does he really mean that the Wright brothers and Eli Whitney and Ford and many others were government functionaries?

Just to keep in balance:

http://gallys.realitykings.com/pu/435/Teagan_Summers-Tasty_teagan-Pure18-09.jpg

 

[Carnevil9]

.......I'm sure the likes of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Lee DeForest, Guglielmo Marconi, Alexander Graham Bell, Jonas Salk, Alfred Nobel, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, et al would disagree with his statement.

Couldn't have said it better in a million years. Government never adds value; it only redistributes value that was added by productive individuals.

 

[Weird Harold]

The VPOTUS has said some really dumb things, but this may be the worst, especially going back as far as the 19th Century. Does he really mean that the Wright brothers and Eli Whitney and Ford and many others were government functionaries?

Check out Amicus' link: Biden was talking about 'education and infrastructure.'

He may have indulged in a bit of hyperbole, but two of your three examples would have made a much smaller mark on history without government investment in their inventions and the infrastructure for them to become widespread. I don't know of any government financed infrastructure changes driven directly by Eli Whitney's inventions, but Ford and the Wrights would have been footnotes in history without goverment built roads and runways.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Check out Amicus' link: Biden was talking about 'education and infrastructure.'

He may have indulged in a bit of hyperbole, but two of your three examples would have made a much smaller mark on history without government investment in their inventions and the infrastructure for them to become widespread. I don't know of any government financed infrastructure changes driven directly by Eli Whitney's inventions, but Ford and the Wrights would have been footnotes in history without goverment built roads and runways.

It is true that the government saw how they could use the inventions, and they did contribute then, but they had nothing at all to do with the original ideas, although that is what Biden is saying.

 

[amicus]

Check out Amicus' link: Biden was talking about 'education and infrastructure.'

He may have indulged in a bit of hyperbole, but two of your three examples would have made a much smaller mark on history without government investment in their inventions and the infrastructure for them to become widespread. I don't know of any government financed infrastructure changes driven directly by Eli Whitney's inventions, but Ford and the Wrights would have been footnotes in history without goverment built roads and runways.[/QUOTE]

~~~

The link, as I recall, was Biden's speech in its' entirety; take it or leave it.

You either refuse to accept my point or you just don't get the fact that government creates nothing...absolutely nothing.

Paths and then dirt roads were created by people traversing an area to do business with each other, long before government ever reared its' ugly head.

If you do even a cursory study of road construction, water systems, sewer systems, electricity transmission, radio and television, the 'infra-structure' you claim is government sponsored, you will find that private industry was the innovative factor that required the infrastructure to serve the customers of consumer products and services.

In a free society, government has but one essential function, as outlined in our fundamental documents; to protect the life, liberty, and pursuit of its' citizens.

You may, in your mind, create your ideal society in which government manages the life and actions of every citizen...that has been tried many times and failed miserably.

The free market was symbolized by Ayn Rand with a $, a dollar sign, the only monetary signature in all of human history to incorporate the Nation as that symbol, the U, superimposed on the S. to create a dollar sign....I would add, a symbolic 'handshake', between two men as a sign of trust and honesty.

The engine of any society, that which makes a civilization work, is the individual human effort to surviveand prosper, and do so with honor and integrity.

It is such a shame you folks don't have a clue about basic human endeavors, the efficacy of a free society and the evils of religion and government.

Amicus

 

[Weird Harold]

It is true that the government saw how they could use the inventions, and they did contribute then, but they had nothing at all to do with the original ideas, although that is what Biden is saying.

Since you didn't bother to click Amicus's link and read the context and the FULL quote Amicus cited, here is the full quote for you:

“Every single great idea that has marked the 21st century, the 20th century and the 19th century has required government vision and government incentive,” he said. “In the middle of the Civil War you had a guy named Lincoln paying people $16,000 for every 40 miles of track they laid across the continental United States. … No private enterprise would have done that for another 35 years.”

He says nothing about the invention or development of the locomotive, just that the government was building infrastructure sooner than private industry could have or would have.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My ancestor Benjamin Chaires built the 3rd railroad in America (1837) with his own money, almost 30 years before Lincoln funded the Transcontinental Railroad.

Generally speaking, the government gets into the game 25-30 years down the road and after the industry is established.

 

[Weird Harold]

Paths and then dirt roads were created by people traversing an area to do business with each other, long before government ever reared its' ugly head.

If you do even a cursory study of road construction, ...

Youmean a cursory history of road construction, like the Roman Raod system, The German Autobahn, and the US Interstate system? The ony three major advances in road construction I can think of offhand.

The Romans created paved roads, many of which are still functional today. The established the idea of permanent pavements with good drainage, built for the military, but used by commerce.

The German Autobahn pioneered the idea of limited access divided highways; built for the military, but used by commerce.

The US Interstate System, the first integrate continental scale road system. Designed to military specifications, but routed and constructed with a consideration for facilitating interstate commerce.

Military roads fall within the requirement to protect he lives and liberty of citizen's, and they are NOT roads that commerce alone will produce.

We can argue about whether simple freemarket forces would ever have come up with roman roads, the autobahn, or the interstate system, but where they exist, they were built by and for the government and not by and for the freemarket.

My ancestor Benjamin Chaires built the 3rd railroad in America (1837) with his own money, almost 30 years before Lincoln funded the Transcontinental Railroad.

The Transcontinental Railroad is actually a case that supports Amicus' Free Market position -- the passage of the funding was bought and paid for by Railroad interests who wanted the government to pay for a railroad they didn't really need. Of course, I don't know that even the money spent on congress-critters and lobbyists would have been enough if there wasn't a military/national security need for a transcontinental transportation system to protect California and Nevada (and their gold and silver mines.)

The government does generally wait until a new innovation or technology is "proven" before investing in the infrastructure it requires. It generally also waits until the military can demonstrate a national security interest for the really big infrastructure investments. (even though it eventually spends more on less important, porkbarrel, projects, railroads, interstates, bridges, airports, and the like generally have a "national security" element in their justifications.)

I will concede the government does spend a good bit of money on "infrastructure" it has no real business meddling in, but recognise that the free market has no inherent interest in providing infrastructure that is primarily designed to facilitate the military in protecting the citizens -- whether that be a minuteman style militia or a standing army, it still needs to be able to get where it is needed quickly. In todays world, that takes good roads, railroads and runways -- and ships/riverboats where there are navigable waterways (maintained by the US Army Corp of Engineers) available.

Government may or may not create anything, but they certainly pay others to build them when they don't do it themselves.

 

[amicus]

Since you didn't bother to click Amicus's link and read the context and the FULL quote Amicus cited, here is the full quote for you:



He says nothing about the invention or development of the locomotive, just that the government was building infrastructure sooner than private industry could have or would have.[/QUOTE]

~~~

WH, if you want expertise in Civil War History, listen to JBJ, it is not a major interest of mine.

The 'incentive' provided by the Federal Government to Railroad Magnates, was to offer land on each side of the tracks for development.

Private Investors, the 'Robber Barons' of Dickensonian myth, create stocks in railroad transportation and built the continental railroads that changed the history of a nation.

Furthermore, it was not a 'gift' of land by the US Government as our founding documents appointed the Feds as custodians of 'private land' until the need arose to convey ownership to individuals.

You just don't get it! America is a land of freedom. Government does not direct our daily activities, it only protects our ennumerated rights!

For Christ's sake, read a real History book, just once!

Amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

WH

The American Civil War was a direct result of sectional conflicts about the Transcontinental Railroad. The South wanted the Southern Pacific route to New Orleans; Lincoln's patrons wanted the route from Chicago to San Francisco that was built. The railroads funded the combat in Kansas.

 

[Weird Harold]

WH

The American Civil War was a direct result of sectional conflicts about the Transcontinental Railroad. The South wanted the Southern Pacific route to New Orleans; Lincoln's patrons wanted the route from Chicago to San Francisco that was built. The railroads funded the combat in Kansas.

That's a rather broad simplification of the issues that lead to seccession, isn't it?

I don't doubt that the route for the Transcontinental Railroad was an issue, but the "need" for the railroad wasn't in much dispute.

Amicus, try reading something other than Ayn Rand.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

That's a rather broad simplification of the issues that lead to seccession, isn't it?

I don't doubt that the route for the Transcontinental Railroad was an issue, but the "need" for the railroad wasn't in much dispute.

Amicus, try reading something other than Ayn Rand.

WH

I've studied the Civil War for 50 years; youre invited to do some research of the principal causes.

 

[amicus]

Guilt by association is an old and discredited ploy. I read Rand 50 years ago, before I earned my degrees in History and Economics.

Government produces nothing. You seem proud to be one of the parasites that live off those who produce goods and services.

Of course it goes deeper than the surface dialectic; you are one of those who psychologically depend on others to support you. You are part of the baggage that those who think and produce are compelled to support.

You want a wife? Go out and compete with those who want the same woman.

You wamt a good job? Go out and compete with those who want the same job.

You want health,life, automobile, boat, home insurance, go out and buy it in the open market place.

You and your ilk are all pussies and you don't even know it. Suppose the government chose your wife/husband for you, suppose the government assigned you to a job and forced you to accept whatever insurance they deemed appropriate for you?

You just don't understand what freedom and free choice means and I pity you for that...keep looking for a compassionate mommy and daddy to solve all your problems...never, ever, depend on your own free choice....see where it gets you?

Amicus

 

[R. Richard]

How can you people not see the enormous positive impact of government?

The Trail of Tears, the War Between The States, The debasing of the USA coinage, the raid on Social Security and many, many more.

Yes, the government does provide certain infrastructure items, mainly after private enterprise has made the infrastucture items necessary. After all, without the government, the dikes that protect New Orleans would have failed and let the city flood. After all, without government oversight, BP's oil platform would have exploded and sunk. No, wait! ...

 

[R. Richard]

You think that the government built the First Transcontinental Railroad? Think again. The railroad was built by private enterprise. Yes, the government did finance much of the work, but the detail planning and construction was by private enterprise.

From Wiki:
The First Transcontinental Railroad (known originally as the "Pacific Railroad" and later as the "Overland Route") was a railroad line built in the United States of America between 1863 and 1869 by the Central Pacific Railroad of California and the Union Pacific Railroad that connected its statutory Eastern terminus at Council Bluffs, Iowa/Omaha, Nebraska (via Ogden, Utah and Sacramento, California) with the Pacific Ocean at Alameda, California on the southern shore of San Francisco Bay opposite San Francisco. By linking with the existing railway network of the Eastern United States, the road thus connected the Atlantic and Pacific coasts of the United States by rail for the first time. The line was popularly known as the Overland Route after the principal passenger rail service that operated over the length of the line through the end of 1962.

The construction and operation of the line was authorized by the Pacific Railroad Acts of 1862 and 1864 during the American Civil War. The Congress supported it with 30-year U.S. government bonds and extensive land grants of government-owned land. Completion of the railroad was the culmination of a decades-long movement to build such a line. It was one of the crowning achievements in the crossing of plains and high mountains westward by the Union Pacific and eastward by the Central Pacific. Opened for through traffic on May 10, 1869, with the driving of the "Last Spike" at Promontory Summit, Utah, the road established a mechanized transcontinental transportation network that revolutionized the population and economy of the American West.

 

[Weird Harold]

You think that the government built the First Transcontinental Railroad? Think again. The railroad was built by private enterprise. Yes, the government did finance much of the work, but the detail planning and construction was by private enterprise.

Would it have been built without government financing and land-grants?

I've studied the Civil War for 50 years; youre invited to do some research of the principal causes.

The railroad route may have been A cause, but your said it yourself, there were causes, plural. The civil war was no more about railroads than it was about slavery, states rights, cotton prices, or any other single 'cause.'

 

[TE999]

If the meek ever do inherit the earth, it'll be because the government hands it to them in exchange for their votes.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
It is true that the government saw how they could use the inventions, and they did contribute then, but they had nothing at all to do with the original ideas, although that is what Biden is saying.

Since you didn't bother to click Amicus's link and read the context and the FULL quote Amicus cited, here is the full quote for you:

Quote:
“Every single great idea that has marked the 21st century, the 20th century and the 19th century has required government vision and government incentive,” he said. “In the middle of the Civil War you had a guy named Lincoln paying people $16,000 for every 40 miles of track they laid across the continental United States. … No private enterprise would have done that for another 35 years

He says nothing about the invention or development of the locomotive, just that the government was building infrastructure sooner than private industry could have or would have.

I did read the full quote, and I must admit that governments have funded infrastructure, etc. but those were certainly not new ideas. Roads existed before the city of Rome was built, although they were little more than dirt paths. In the US, ferries and bridges were built by private enterprise long before the government got involved in their construction. The first railroad tracks were laid by private enterprise without government vision or incentive, although the government sometimes got involved long aftrer the infrastructure had been shown to be a good idea.

Governments have come up with new ideas, of course, such as concentration camps, conquering neighboring nations, the "Final Solution," and other similar notions.

 

[R. Richard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Richard
You think that the government built the First Transcontinental Railroad? Think again. The railroad was built by private enterprise. Yes, the government did finance much of the work, but the detail planning and construction was by private enterprise.

Would it have been built without government financing and land-grants?

The answer is a resounding and obvious YES! There was a clear and obviously profitable use for a transcontinental railroad. In fact, it was already being built, one small piece at a time. What the government did was to speed up the process.

As to the land grants, it would have been even more profitable for the railroads to buy up blocks of land along their intended routes, as land values went way up when they built a railroad through an area. However, the need for capital by the railroads would have meant that the transcontinental railroad would have taken much longer to build.

 

[oggbashan]

Just the thought of 'Joe Bite Me' being a heartbeat away from becoming the POTUS gives me the willies. What a fool.

He must have skipped class the day they taught history. I'm sure the likes of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Lee DeForest, Guglielmo Marconi, Alexander Graham Bell, Jonas Salk, Alfred Nobel, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, et al would disagree with his statement.

Marconi's early radio experiments were extensively (and expensively) sponsored by the British Post Office via their Chief Engineer. Without their support and encouragement he wouldn't have been able to do so much so soon.

At the time the British Post Office was a civil service department and their head, the Postmaster General, was a member of the Cabinet.

Og