Question from a Literotica newbie

[BBV22]

Hi all,

nursing my bruised ego, I find myself compelled to visit the Lit forum in search of assistance from greater minds than mine.

I've recently submitted the first three chapters of one of my stories to Literotica and, happily, they've been accepted (albeit after some rejigging to meet the format requirements of the site). So far reader feedback has been really good with only a couple of negative responses but the last one has left my head spinning a bit.

'The author needs to learn that "..." isn't proper as a pause, and the number and frequency of his use is extremely beyond justified need'

Now, never mind about the symantics of his/her comment (the reader was Mr Anonymous again); I've been writing and submitting erotic stories to various webites for about five years now and this is the first time somebody's pulled me up about using ... as an extended pause i.e. a break in the flow of the narrative that warrants more than the insertion of a comma (,). Maybe they have a point about how often I used it in the chapter, but I was trying to convey the fact that the two people involved were a little unsure about what they were doing, nervous etc etc. Isn't ... an accepted method of illustrating a pause? How else do you convey an uncomfortable or disjointed break in conversation or thought that is quick and elegant without writing 'there was an uncomfortable break in the conversation'?

I've had a bit of a dig in the writers resources and on google, but there isn't an article out there about "How to make a Pregnant Pause".

Anyone got any thoughts they want to share?

BB

 

[Darkniciad]

I've found that it's generally considered amateurish by authors and readers who comment around here. I'm sure there's a large portion of the silent majority who couldn't give a flying fig *laugh*

If nothing else, limiting the use of ellipses to denote long pauses will quiet the comment screamers, and you can use it as an opportunity to hone your skills at describing things like that in narrative, rather than using the easy ( but still near universally recognized ) punctuation shortcut.

If you're up for the challenge of limiting them, then go for it. If it seems like more trouble than it's worth, and you just want to tell a story that everyone will understand, stick with it and ignore the commenters who grumble about it.

I'm a pause-ellipse nazi myself, but I usually ignore them unless there are great heaps of other errors/problems with the story, or there are just crazy amounts of them ( two or more per chunk of dialogue, in nearly every bit of dialogue )

 

[sr71plt]

I don't see a link to your story, so I can't see the specific use.

But, an ellipsis is proper to show interrupted or faltering speech. An em dash is used for interruption or abrupt redirection in thoughts. (Chicago Manual of Style 11.45)

Just because a commenter makes a statement about a grammar "mistake" in a story comment doesn't necessarily mean they have any idea what they're talking about. (In fact, I've often seen the contrary.)

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Hi all,

nursing my bruised ego, I find myself compelled to visit the Lit forum in search of assistance from greater minds than mine.

I've recently submitted the first three chapters of one of my stories to Literotica and, happily, they've been accepted (albeit after some rejigging to meet the format requirements of the site). So far reader feedback has been really good with only a couple of negative responses but the last one has left my head spinning a bit.

'The author needs to learn that "..." isn't proper as a pause, and the number and frequency of his use is extremely beyond justified need'

Now, never mind about the symantics of his/her comment (the reader was Mr Anonymous again); I've been writing and submitting erotic stories to various webites for about five years now and this is the first time somebody's pulled me up about using ... as an extended pause i.e. a break in the flow of the narrative that warrants more than the insertion of a comma (,). Maybe they have a point about how often I used it in the chapter, but I was trying to convey the fact that the two people involved were a little unsure about what they were doing, nervous etc etc. Isn't ... an accepted method of illustrating a pause? How else do you convey an uncomfortable or disjointed break in conversation or thought that is quick and elegant without writing 'there was an uncomfortable break in the conversation'?

I've had a bit of a dig in the writers resources and on google, but there isn't an article out there about "How to make a Pregnant Pause".

Anyone got any thoughts they want to share?

BB

Your critic's view is that the ellipsis (those three periods separated by a space each) is only to be used at the end of a sentence to indicate that it trails off without definite conclusion. This view also believes that a pause in the middle of a sentence should be indicated by a bar. If you are typing in Word, putting two dashes into your text will automatically result in a bar when you complete the next word. The view is very academic and not universal in the publishing world. It is nothing but an opinion, albeit a commonly held one.

Personally, I wouldn't let it bother me one way or another. If you get a chance, read Bill Bryce's The Mother Tongue. In it he documents the odd fact that English grammar is pure fraud, the attempt to impose rules of classical Latin onto the Germanic based English. Very funny reading and good for the balance of one's mind. Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[Darkniciad]

Actually, switching to an em dash wouldn't help in the slightest. I know this commenter. He/she trolls mainly the incest category slapping comments about ellipses and em dashes, often half filling the Feedback portal with the complaints.

He's a seriel bitcher, and a very small minority -- especially in incest/taboo.

 

[jomar]

In my experience you really can't go wrong ignoring the anonymous commenter.

 

[sr71plt]

The point is that one (the ellipsis) is used in spoken dialog and the other (em dash) is used in the context of thoughts--and the narrative. (per the Chicago Manual of Style--which trumps any commenter on Literotica for authority)

It's nonsense to think (or propose) that an ellipsis can't be used mid sentence.

It's possible the ellipsis is being used to distraction in the story, though--which it shouldn't be. There's no link to it here to check that, though.

 

[sr71plt]

In my experience you really can't go wrong ignoring the anonymous commenter.

There ya go.

 

[Darkniciad]

Replacing those ellipses is a good place to bring some dimension to your character.

What is the character doing during that pause?

Does his expression change? Maybe a slight frown breaks out. Maybe he rolls his eyes. Maybe he makes a helpless gesture with his hand. Twirling a strand of hair, perhaps?

It doesn't have to be narrative saying there's a pause to indicate a pause. Just have the character doing something else between the bits of dialogue that gives him or her some personality. Pay attention to people talking and log away all those little things people do when they pause ( frequently ) while speaking. Build up a library of them, and take advantage of it

 

[_Lynn_]

The point is that one (the ellipsis) is used in spoken dialog and the other (em dash) is used in the context of thoughts--and the narrative. (per the Chicago Manual of Style--which trumps any commenter on Literotica for authority)

It's nonsense to think (or propose) that an ellipsis can't be used mid sentence.

It's possible the ellipsis is being used to distraction in the story, though--which it shouldn't be. There's no link to it here to check that, though.

Here you go.

 

[Darkniciad]

From what I see in the link, it's right at that "too distracting" barrier for my taste.

Replacing a few of them with some descriptive narrative would make a big difference. There are a few that I think would be best left as single word sentences, too. You don't always need to punctuate that with an ellipse for the reader to understand. "So?" can work just as well as "So..?"

But, like I said, if you're happy with the response ( other than the grumbler ) you're getting from your stories, I'm quite sure that large chunks of the readership couldn't care less, and perfectly understand what you're conveying when you bring out the dots

 

[sr71plt]

Here you go.

Thanks. I'd say they were overused. And there is some improper use too.

Interrupted speech (as opposed to speech that just dies out) should be marked with an em dash, not an ellipsis. (Chicago Manual of Style 6.90):

"If you'd step just a smidgen to the right—”

"Shut up and stop breathing down my neck."


Also, if it's really a pause in time you want to convey between sentences, you should write in that there's a pause, not try to rely on punctuation to convey that--since the punctuation choices really are busy conveying something else.

"Did you really kill the dragon?"

Hector paused, fighting for breath in his fear.

"Is she really quite dead, then? And if so, what is that standing behind you with a scowl on its maw?"


Not a biggie, but a publisher's ellipsis is not the same as the one you have on a computer. A published work (which would include stories posted here) ellipsis has spaces between the dots:

"I don't think . . . I don't really think that puce suits your complexion."

"I don't think you really want to pick your nose during your piano recital . . . I mean . . . oh, never mind . . ."

 

[TE999]

I use ellipsis in my stories to indicate hesitation or confusion in a characters speech and end an incomplete sentence when the character who is speaking is interrupted.

Those who can't do, criticize.

 

[sr71plt]

Once again, interrupted speech is denoted with an em dash (Chicago Manual of Style 6.90).

 

[angelicminx]

Replacing those ellipses is a good place to bring some dimension to your character.

What is the character doing during that pause?

Does his expression change? Maybe a slight frown breaks out. Maybe he rolls his eyes. Maybe he makes a helpless gesture with his hand. Twirling a strand of hair, perhaps?

It doesn't have to be narrative saying there's a pause to indicate a pause. Just have the character doing something else between the bits of dialogue that gives him or her some personality. Pay attention to people talking and log away all those little things people do when they pause ( frequently ) while speaking. Build up a library of them, and take advantage of it

Great advice! Hello darlin'...

 

[Lisa Summers]

I use ellipses quite a bit these days...my characters have become much more thoughtful!

Anyway, story critics have small penises, and if they happen to be male, they have enlarged anuses, so disregard them.

 

[sr71plt]

I use ellipses quite a bit these days...my characters have become much more thoughtful!

"I use ellipses quite a bit these days; my characters have become much more thoughtful."

Just fixing the punctuation of that for you (lest the OP be led astray).

 

[Stella_Omega]

I do love me a semicolon!

And em-dashes. I am having a hard time not using them in this comment.

And Lisa's av, I like that a lot as well.

 

[TE999]

Once again, interrupted speech is denoted with an em dash (Chicago Manual of Style 6.90).

Phooey on the style manual...ellipsis are cool...em-dashes are boring.

 

[BBV22]

I didn't think I was going to get anywhere near this kind of response. Thanks to all for taking the time to post. There's an awful lot I want to say but most of it's dross so I'll cut to the chase.

First off; my apologies for not posting a link to the story in question, that was an oversight on my part. Thanks to MistressLynn

Yeah, it's annoying as hell when people have the gall to post criticisms and then hide behind anonymity. That doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong; hence my post in the first place. Having said that, it's nice to get comments like those from Lisa and Darkniciad.

I do understand what's behind the advice about being creative with writing to avoid having to use them. Maybe I was being a bit lazy. Sigh. You can't please all of the people all of the time...

Aside from that thanks for all the advice, it's been most heartening.

BB

P.S. Hey SR71plt, what's life like at 50000ft and Mach3? I fly a PBY so anything over 120kts and I start looking for bits falling off!

 

[Handley_Page]

P.S. Hey SR71plt, what's life like at 50000ft and Mach3? I fly a PBY so anything over 120kts and I start looking for bits falling off!

As low as that ?

 

[ishtat]

Just to be mischevious I note that the Oxford Language Reference is less prescriptive than the Chicago Manual of Style with respect to clarifying the role of em dash as opposed to ellipsis.

OLR also includes the following which I'm sure we will all find useful:-

Some puplishers insert a letter space before and after the ellipsis, or before and after each dot. Others add a fourth dot when the sentence ends with an ellipsis, the fourth dot being set tight on the third to show its different character.


So you see dots ain't necessarily dots.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

'Yeah, it's annoying as hell when people have the gall to post criticisms and then hide behind anonymity.'

Someone give the poor guy a security blanket.

 

[sr71plt]

Just to be mischevious I note that the Oxford Language Reference is less prescriptive than the Chicago Manual of Style with respect to clarifying the role of em dash as opposed to ellipsis.

OLR also includes the following which I'm sure we will all find useful:-

Some puplishers insert a letter space before and after the ellipsis, or before and after each dot. Others add a fourth dot when the sentence ends with an ellipsis, the fourth dot being set tight on the third to show its different character.


So you see dots ain't necessarily dots.

Don't see what? The CMA says the same thing about sentences ending in an ellipsis (although what it applies to is excerpt taken out of a quote--11.57).

The issue with using it either for a broken off sentence, either from interruption or just faltering away, is that the sentence doesn't really end (which is the point of special punctuation). So a period (and thus a fourth dot) wouldn't be appropriate.

 

[Lisa Summers]

I do love me a semicolon!

And em-dashes. I am having a hard time not using them in this comment.

And Lisa's av, I like that a lot as well.

It's an em-dash (when encountered from the side), as you well know.

Although I suppose it's a rather wonderful exclamation point when viewed from the front, recumbent.