Sittin’ on the dock of the bay,

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Well, U_D just outlined the roadblocks...

Yes, you can build it, but it has to be our way, but zip, not too long ago you were telling me the holdup was the church would not relocate. It sounds to us like the city of NYC is holding a double standard when it comes to "freedom of religion."

Well, let's see, the landmark commission skid...

FACT

The Church is not being rebuilt. It's been unbuilt since 2001.

Question: Why not a similar cooling-off period for the Mosque?

FACT

You two are in a shrinking minority with the majority being those who think something is rotten in Denmark...

 

[zipman]

Well, U_D just outlined the roadblocks...

Yes, you can build it, but it has to be our way, but zip, not too long ago you were telling me the holdup was the church would not relocate. It sounds to us like the city of NYC is holding a double standard when it comes to "freedom of religion."

Well, let's see, the landmark commission skid...

FACT

The Church is not being rebuilt. It's been unbuilt since 2001.

Question: Why not a similar cooling-off period for the Mosque?

FACT

You two are in a shrinking minority with the majority being those who think something is rotten in Denmark...

LOL, spin, lie and deflect. That's all you have.

The Mosque is not getting any government funding. The church could begin rebuilding tomorrow without any government funding.

The church wanted more and more money to rebuild and they wanteed oversight on decisions about ground zero. The mosque hasn't demanded any of those things.

They are different situations no matter how much you try and spin it. How were the skids greased?

Come on dumbass, nut up or shut up.

 

[zipman]

Come out, come out where ever you are....

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

LOL, spin, lie and deflect. That's all you have.

The Mosque is not getting any government funding. The church could begin rebuilding tomorrow without any government funding.

The church wanted more and more money to rebuild and they wanteed oversight on decisions about ground zero. The mosque hasn't demanded any of those things.

They are different situations no matter how much you try and spin it. How were the skids greased?

Come on dumbass, nut up or shut up.

Okay, they are two different things.

And we'll ignore the Mother Theresa situation.

The Mosque IS demanding to be built in the debris field and the stronger our outrage grows the more quiet the Imam gets. At some point it becomes clear that outreach is the last thing on his mind and placating Islam is foremost in the mind of the supporters, most of them who went apeshit over the Dubai Port Deal.

Again, I ask you, the Times Square bomber, did he bring materials in over our open borders? Was he radicalized by business? Was he radicalized by an Imam, and how do you personally reconcile this in the light of knowing that The Muslim Brotherhood has decided to shift the tactics from the violence that hardened us and decided to advance via "peaceful" infiltration?

Why aren't you the least bit curious as to the statement of Imam Rauf and where and how he's going to raise all this money while you will become an expert in the politics of rebuilding the Greek Church in order to "prove" that this Muslim "outreach" is an innocent enterprise?

As far as the skids, it seems to me that the government, by denying funding and building decisions is mixing state and religion. Perhaps that's unconstitutional, and the money should never have been offered and then they would have no say, which is exactly what you seem to want with the Mosque, for government, or anyone else, including the victims, to have a say.

 

[zipman]

Okay, they are two different things.

And we'll ignore the Mother Theresa situation.

The Mosque IS demanding to be built in the debris field and the stronger our outrage grows the more quiet the Imam gets. At some point it becomes clear that outreach is the last thing on his mind and placating Islam is foremost in the mind of the supporters, most of them who went apeshit over the Dubai Port Deal.

Again, I ask you, the Times Square bomber, did he bring materials in over our open borders? Was he radicalized by business? Was he radicalized by an Imam, and how do you personally reconcile this in the light of knowing that The Muslim Brotherhood has decided to shift the tactics from the violence that hardened us and decided to advance via "peaceful" infiltration?

Why aren't you the least bit curious as to the statement of Imam Rauf and where and how he's going to raise all this money while you will become an expert in the politics of rebuilding the Greek Church in order to "prove" that this Muslim "outreach" is an innocent enterprise?

As far as the skids, it seems to me that the government, by denying funding and building decisions is mixing state and religion. Perhaps that's unconstitutional, and the money should never have been offered and then they would have no say, which is exactly what you seem to want with the Mosque, for government, or anyone else, including the victims, to have a say.

Yes, they are two different things which means that you were wrong, just not man enough to actually say that after countless pages and posts. Got it.

Mother Theresa is a red herring and again, has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at all. Just another attempt at obfuscation.

The Mosque is looking to rebuild the building that they were in prior to 9/11, just like the Greek church who is free to do the exact same thing. Placating Islam is not the issue, freedom of religion which is a cornerstone of this country is. Are you truly so stupid that you still don't get that.

The Times square bomber? Again, freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Or do you think you should get to decide who is able to enjoy those rights?

I'm not trying to "prove" anything, not even the fact that you're an idiot. You're doing that all on your own. I'm simply discussing the legality of the issue and refuting the disinformation that you're posting.

So let me get this straight, the government refusing to spend more than 60 million to rebuild the greek church is mixing politics and religion but denying a mosque the right to rebuild their own church with their own money isn't one?

The utter lack of logic and consistency to your arguments is astounding.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Another fine example of NE religious tolerance...

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=725514

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Yes, they are two different things which means that you were wrong, just not man enough to actually say that after countless pages and posts. Got it.

Mother Theresa is a red herring and again, has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at all. Just another attempt at obfuscation.

The Mosque is looking to rebuild the building that they were in prior to 9/11, just like the Greek church who is free to do the exact same thing. Placating Islam is not the issue, freedom of religion which is a cornerstone of this country is. Are you truly so stupid that you still don't get that.

The Times square bomber? Again, freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Or do you think you should get to decide who is able to enjoy those rights?

I'm not trying to "prove" anything, not even the fact that you're an idiot. You're doing that all on your own. I'm simply discussing the legality of the issue and refuting the disinformation that you're posting.

So let me get this straight, the government refusing to spend more than 60 million to rebuild the greek church is mixing politics and religion but denying a mosque the right to rebuild their own church with their own money isn't one?

[Why didn't the government refuse to spend 20 million? Don't we demand strict separation of Church and State?]

The utter lack of logic and consistency to your arguments is astounding.

I'm sorry, the Mosque was IN the vacant, for sale, Burlington Coat Factory?

You SURE about that?

The Mother Theresa lights are symbolic of an intolerance to CHRISTIAN Religion as the religion of the "majority" which means it's OPPRESSIVE...

Their money, or Saudi and Iranian oil money; the kind that finances terror?

The Imam refuses to face the press and he refuses to reveal the sources of his funding and he certainly doesn't mind offending the majority of Americans. Is he, like so many politicians, just telling you what you want to hear in order to achieve his goals? Like Obama did?
__________________
“There are a number of things [Barack Obama said] he was for on the campaign trail.”
Nancy Pelosi (on why no transparency or time to read the bill)
"My experience is when you talk to a guy like a BP CEO, he's going to say all the right things to me."
Barack Obama

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

But the growing number of congregants at the only other nearby mosque, open only one day a week, created a need for an additional space for Muslim prayer in the neighborhood, said Daisy Khan, the executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement and a board member of the Cordoba Initiative, the two organizations sponsoring the project.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-07-mosque-ground-zero_N.htm

Wouldn't it be cheaper and make more sense for the Imam to expand the existing Mosque?

 

[tactful]

And nothing about Otis, in depth, at all, damn,
and the p isn't a typo.

 

[zipman]

I'm sorry, the Mosque was IN the vacant, for sale, Burlington Coat Factory?

You SURE about that?

The Mother Theresa lights are symbolic of an intolerance to CHRISTIAN Religion as the religion of the "majority" which means it's OPPRESSIVE...

Their money, or Saudi and Iranian oil money; the kind that finances terror?

The Imam refuses to face the press and he refuses to reveal the sources of his funding and he certainly doesn't mind offending the majority of Americans. Is he, like so many politicians, just telling you what you want to hear in order to achieve his goals? Like Obama did?
__________________
“There are a number of things [Barack Obama said] he was for on the campaign trail.”
Nancy Pelosi (on why no transparency or time to read the bill)
"My experience is when you talk to a guy like a BP CEO, he's going to say all the right things to me."
Barack Obama

The buildings are currently (and have been) used as prayer space for muslim overflow from the mosques in lower manhattan since before 9/11.

The Empire State Building is lit up in green and red for christmas every single year, something you would know if you lived here instead of being a reactionary rightwing nutjob from across the country commenting on local issues. That they aren't lighting it up for Mother Theresa isn't oppressive of Christianity in any way shape or form.

If the funding is illegal it shouldn't be allowed. Again, we are a country of laws, not a difficult fact.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Link?

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years.

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

Not one fucking word about services previously being held there...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

So, you can give me COMPLETE assurance that if the Christians reject government funding, they can build whatever they want, however they want whenever they want?




'Cause I'd donate to that!

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

PS - So what if it's lit up for Christmas?






What's that mean? Does it form a cross? or just nebulous "Holiday" colors?

 

[zipman]

Link?





http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

Not one fucking word about services previously being held there...

So because that article didn't mention the fact that because of overflow from the other mosques they started using that space as a prayer hall it never happened?

So, you can give me COMPLETE assurance that if the Christians reject government funding, they can build whatever they want, however they want whenever they want?

'Cause I'd donate to that!

You can donate wherever you like. How can I give you COMPLETE assurance about something that is beyond my control? Are you stupid? They can build whatever they want as long as it adheres to the building and zoning laws and as far as however they want, that would require adhering to the building codes and safety laws. But they can build whenever they want. That much has been publicly stated.

PS - So what if it's lit up for Christmas?

What's that mean? Does it form a cross? or just nebulous "Holiday" colors?

Nebulous holiday colors? How completely disingenuous of you. Green and red are christmas colors which clearly shows they are not prejudiced against christians. It also isn't government owned and therefore, has absolutely no place in this discussion so nice try with yet another red herring but it won't work.

The only issue I've argued is that there is no legal basis for rejecting the mosque. Well that and disproving your misinformation.

 

[zipman]

Otis, my man. What happened?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

It's the Imam's own fucking website.





One would think that it would be an important argument.

What I suspect you have there is another one of those "Mosque in the Pentagon" kind of claims...

You know why he can't, and WON'T condemn Hamas?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

THE CHARTER
The name “Hamas” is derived from the Arabic phrase for “Islamic Resistance Movement” (Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyya). It was established in late 1987, at the start of the Intifada, for the singular purpose of waging a violent jihad that, Hamas pledged, would continue until Israel’s annihilation. This is not my opinion. It is an undeniable fact — regardless of how often denied. Set aside its decades of barbaric attacks, its celebration of a death culture in which streets are named after “martyrs” and children are garbed in mock suicide belts at summer camp. Hamas proclaimed its existence in a formal charter that could not be more emphatic:

The Islamic Resistance Movement erupted in order to play its role in the path of its Lord. In so doing, it joined its hands with those of all Jihad fighters for the purpose of liberating Palestine. The souls of its Jihad fighters will encounter those of all Jihad fighters who have sacrificed their lives in the land of Palestine since it was conquered by the Companion of the Prophet, be Allah’s prayer and peace upon him, and until this very day. This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas). . . . Our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails.

Self-consciously, Hamas cast itself as an Islamist alternative to Yasser Arafat’s comparatively secular/socialist Palestinian nationalism. Consistent with Islamist ideology, it rejects the separation of mosque and state, because its political objectives are Islamic imperatives: “Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims,” the charter decrees. Jihad is an obligation of Islam to spread the faith until it is universally dominant. For Islamists, “Palestine” is “the land of the Muslims” — never mind that Israel was the Jewish homeland before there were Muslims. Thus, the charter explains, jihad — savage, bloody jihad — “becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman.”

So unabashedly committed to violence is Hamas that it rejects peace negotiations and diplomatic settlements as a matter of principle. The charter avers:

The so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad.

Nor could it be clearer that the jihad is to continue until every last Jew has been killed or disappears. On this point, the charter asserts: “Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”

With due respect to Imam Kringle and Islam’s other American cheerleaders, this neither “twists up the religion to serve a political agenda” nor “hijacks” Islam. Hamas, to the contrary, accurately quoted Islamic scripture. As the scholar Andrew Bostom observes, the pronouncement by Mohammed about Muslims killing all remaining Jews on the Day of Judgment comes straight from a canonical hadith, Sahih Muslim, Book 41, No. 6985. Hadiths are collections of the prophet’s words and deeds, and the one in question flows seamlessly from the Koran itself, from verses like Sura 2:61, which condemns Jews for purportedly rejecting Allah’s signs and “slaying his Messengers.” That indictment, reiterated in Sura 3:112, is echoed in the Hamas charter’s opening passages: “They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully.” Thus, the charter warns, “Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.”

THE BROTHERHOOD
This is why Imam Rauf and his friends get so tongue-tied when it comes to Hamas. Like many of Rauf’s principal supporters in the United States, Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood; in fact, it is its Palestinian branch. Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what Hamas itself says, in the charter:

Article Two: The Link between Hamas and the Association of Muslim Brothers: The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a world organization, the largest Islamic Movement in the modern era. It is characterized by a profound understanding, by precise notions and by a complete comprehensiveness of all concepts of Islam in all domains of life: views and beliefs, politics and economics, education and society, jurisprudence and rule, indoctrination and teaching, the arts and publications, the hidden and the evident, and all the other domains of life.

Again: no separation of the spiritual and the temporal, of Islamic and civil law. They are one. And, it turns out, the top priority of Rauf’s Cordoba Initiative is the Sharia Index Project, which is designed to plant and expand Islamic law in every country. Wonder of wonders, that just happens to be the Muslim Brotherhood’s top priority — the installation of sharia being the necessary precondition to the Islamicizing of a society. And, lo and behold, Rauf’s partners in the Sharia Index Project include Jamal Barzinji and his International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT).

As Zeyno Baran recounts in an essay for the Hudson Institute’s invaluable series, Current Trends in Islamist Ideology (available here, scroll to page 78), Barzinji is a pivotal figure in the construction of the Brotherhood’s American network. Barzinji formed IIIT as a think tank geared toward the “Islamicization of knowledge.” Later, perceiving the need to establish an “umbrella organization” for Islamist groups in the United States, Barzinji forged the creation in 1981 of the Islamic Society of North America. ISNA later funded Hamas, using its Illinois headquarters to house the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF) — an ostensible “charity” set up by the Brotherhood to underwrite Hamas’s operations. Thereafter, when the Brotherhood created the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) to be its public-relations arm (disguised as a civil-rights organization), seed money came from HLF.

In late 2008, IIIT and ISNA republished Rauf’s book, What’s Right with Islam, under the new title, What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America. The book had been released in Malaysia, in 2004, under the more ominous title A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11 — “dawa” being the stealth form of jihad by which the Brotherhood promises to “conquer America,” according to its spiritual leader, Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, a figure admired by Rauf. Barzinji personally chaired the meeting that launched the republication of Rauf’s book, and the IIIT subsequently hosted Rauf at a December 2008 event. ISNA and CAIR, meantime, have become leading advocates for the Ground Zero mosque. Both groups are enjoying a resurgence in the era of Obama’s “outreach” to Islam, notwithstanding their designation by the Justice Department as unindicted coconspirators in the recent HLF prosecution, in which several defendants were convicted for financing Hamas.

Barzinji has been involved in large-scale American mosque projects before. He is a founder of the Dar al-Hijra mosque and Islamic community center in Virginia (about which I’ve written here). His co-founders included Ismail Elbarasse, another Brotherhood heavyweight who helped his former business partner, Mousa abu Marzook, run Hamas from Virginia in the early Nineties. (Deported from the United States in 1994, Marzook is now the No. 2 Hamas official.) Besides being a hub of Hamas support, the Dar al-Hijra center is now infamous for having retained al-Qaeda recruiter Anwar al-Awlaki as one of its imams, as well as for ministering to some of the 9/11 hijackers, the Fort Hood assassin, and an al-Qaeda operative now serving a life sentence for plotting to murder Pres. George W. Bush.

Andrew McCarthy
NRO

Asking the questions Katie Couric sure as hell won't...

MEANWHILE, we're trying to turn Glenn Beck into a terrorist and race-baiter; the Left "KNOWS" it's allies, enemies, and "facts."

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Red and green are traditional "holiday colors now..."

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Really? They can take government money and build whatever they want?

 

[zipman]

It's the Imam's own fucking website.





One would think that it would be an important argument.

What I suspect you have there is another one of those "Mosque in the Pentagon" kind of claims...

You know why he can't, and WON'T condemn Hamas?

LOL, so at the end of the day, you really don't have any argument, do you?

You've thrown a pot full of spaghetti at the wall and none of it has stuck. Then again, I'm sure you're used to it by now.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

LOL, so at the end of the day, you really don't have any argument, do you?

You've thrown a pot full of spaghetti at the wall and none of it has stuck. Then again, I'm sure you're used to it by now.

Is that how you prove prayers were going on in an empty building thus establishing it as as valid a site and the Greek Church which is not being rebuilt?

Just your "say-so?"

Like Killy saying there was a Mosque in the Pentagon?

If the HamasQue Imam isn't using that as a basis for his argument, then I suspect it's not truth there zip. You hold me to a higher standard than you hold you?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Why WON'T he condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization even as they rocket Israel and kidnap its citizens?

 

[Byron In Exile]

Why WON'T he condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization even as they rocket Israel and kidnap its citizens?

Fuck that.

Islam is a religion for people whose lives suck.

It says, basically, "Yes, God knows your life sucks, but, if you follow these principles, it will be great for you beyond anything you can imagine."

Who wouldn't want that?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Where do I sign up to convert?








Well, it was up to me...

 

[zipman]

Is that how you prove prayers were going on in an empty building thus establishing it as as valid a site and the Greek Church which is not being rebuilt?

Just your "say-so?"

Like Killy saying there was a Mosque in the Pentagon?

If the HamasQue Imam isn't using that as a basis for his argument, then I suspect it's not truth there zip. You hold me to a higher standard than you hold you?

It's already been posted in the other 9/11 threads. So hwat happens, I post the link and then you move on to another red herring topic about it like the greek church issue when your opinion on tha has completely proved to be wrong?

What will you do if I post a link showing it? That's the real question.