Social Justice, Social Engineering, Eugenics; Right or Wrong?

[amicus]

I would suggest a brief search for the meaning of the terms, social justice, social engineering and eugenics; all theories that were popular in the progressive era at the turn of the 20th century.

Totally alien to American Society, is the concept and the intent to treat the American population as a whole to facilitate managing behavioral tendencies to achieve or accomplish a desired end result.

Alien because the nature of independent free people resists being managed and manipulated to conform to some abstract utopian goal, be it religious, economic or social. None of that rests easy with a free people choosing their own lifestyles without coercion.

“Don’t ask, Don’t tell” as social engineering:
http://iowaindependent.com/35192/king-dadt-repeal-a-risky-experiment-in-social-engineering


14th amendment history: http://www.gilderlehrman.org/historynow/12_2004/historian.php 1868 to enfranchise freed slaves

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/obama-to-push-harder-for-amnesty backdoor amnesty obama plan

I personally have no respect and no concern at all for European nations that are experimenting with various forms of socialism; let them rot, we will not bail them out ever again!

Our concern in the middle east is to confront a malignant scourge upon oppressed people, modern day national socialism with a God instead of a Man as the Godhead.

The regeneration of the spirit of America will arise from the rural areas they/we will isolate and starve the city dwellers that dominate the political scene and spearhead the drive to socialize a free nation.

I don’t expect you see it coming so I thought to give you a ‘heads up’, just because I am one of the good guys.

Amicus Veritas

 

[oggbashan]

Rowing

The rowing competition was nearly cancelled. There was a serious dispute about eligible craft.

The Greeks started it. Didn’t they start everything first?

They insisted that as the Olympic Games were to be held in Greece that triremes should be used and ramming should be allowed.

The Trojans (modern Turkey) objected because the Greeks had too many triremes. After all hadn’t they sent a thousand of them just to reclaim a missing wife? They might have blamed Aphrodite but who didn’t?

The Trojan War was restaged with flour bombs between Greece and Turkey. The rowers from Cyprus threw flour at both sides and each other. The Irish joined in, fighting anyone. Begorrah! You couldn’t have a decent Donnybrook without the Irish, could you?

 

[TxRad]

Amicus Nullorum,

You are still peddling the same old bullshit.

Give us a rest.

Og

But to do that he would have to have some understanding of the real meaning of the word social. Social understanding and social interaction. He only knows the political term socialism and uses it interchangeable with social.

 

[Liar]

Social Justice, Social Engineering, Eugenics; Right or Wrong?

Strawberries, Bicycles, Rape; Right or Wrong?


Or in plain English: You put Eugenics in the same trope as Social Justice to stir shit and ask a fallacious question.

Ain't gonna play.

 

[djserani]

I like pie.

 

[oggbashan]

I like pie.

I like chocolate brownies. I'll even share some with my friends. That probably makes me a "socialist".

Og

 

[djserani]

I like chocolate brownies. I'll even share some with my friends. That probably makes me a "socialist".

Og

ROFLMAO!

 

[Seduc1ove]

I like chocolate brownies. I'll even share some with my friends. That probably makes me a "socialist".

Og

I like chocolate chip cookies. Yummy.

 

[bronzeage]

The regeneration of the spirit of America will arise from the rural areas they/we will isolate and starve the city dwellers that dominate the political scene and spearhead the drive to socialize a free nation.

I don’t expect you see it coming so I thought to give you a ‘heads up’, just because I am one of the good guys.

Amicus Veritas

What are you on?

This is the kind of paranoid rantings I hear from the crackheads in my neighborhood.

Of course, crack is an urban drug of choice, so you must be on crystal meth.

 

[amicus]

Oggbashan strolls unabashedly naked into the North Sea and all the lefty lemmings follow suit...not unexpected.

"..Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating an egalitarian society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity...."

In the real world, a man might structure his family, wife and children, along such lines as he saw fit and proper for their upbringing.

Only in the fuzzy intellectual sterile world of the Left do those malcontents look upon the whole of society as 'their' possession, to be dealt with as a whole and not by individual choice and preference.

The end effect of SOCIAL JUSTICE is to dumb down the population to the lowest common denominator by limiting the expertise of the brilliant and contributing the wealth of a nation to the non producers.

Liar....nice of you to catch my inclusion of Eugenics, but, my far away friend, leaf through a bit of history concerning the era of popularity for eugenics and note the association with social justice and social engineering. Even you might be startled by the association of the three malevolent concepts.

Amicus

 

[Boxlicker101]

Eugenics, at least as I understand it, is practiced to a very limited degree even now. Women looking to be artificially inseminated search for the donor with what they consider to be the best qualities. People looking for egg donors want those from a woman who has characteristics they consideer desireable. Incest is illegal, in part, because negative recessive characteristics are likely to appear in the offspring produced by such unions.

 

[amicus]

Eugenics, at least as I understand it, is practiced to a very limited degree even now. Women looking to be artificially inseminated search for the donor with what they consider to be the best qualities. People looking for egg donors want those from a woman who has characteristics they consideer desireable. Incest is illegal, in part, because negative recessive characteristics are likely to appear in the offspring produced by such unions.

~~~

Excellent point Boxlicker, and even more pertinent than many think.

There are ethical questions being raised about such medical procedures as human cloning and gene manipulation, both of which have goals similar to that of Eugenics; to improve the genetic quality of the species.

There have been in the recent past, in California of all places, experiments with male and female prisoners to sterilize them to prevent continuance of what some see as a 'criminal gene'.

One can certainly appreciate medical innovations, but they, as in all things, have a moral and ethical factor involved and more so when the State becomes involved with the power to enforce such innovations.

Amicus

 

[Boxlicker101]

~~~

Excellent point Boxlicker, and even more pertinent than many think.

There are ethical questions being raised about such medical procedures as human cloning and gene manipulation, both of which have goals similar to that of Eugenics; to improve the genetic quality of the species.

There have been in the recent past, in California of all places, experiments with male and female prisoners to sterilize them to prevent continuance of what some see as a 'criminal gene'.

One can certainly appreciate medical innovations, but they, as in all things, have a moral and ethical factor involved and more so when the State becomes involved with the power to enforce such innovations.

Amicus

I don't believe there hase been any experimental sterilizations of prisoners in CA. Under certain situations, temporary or permanent sterilization may be a condition of parole, but that would be for other reasons, and the prisoner would be released shortly after the procedure.

 

[Handley_Page]

Eugenics is a repulsive practice.

It was tried in the Balkans, it was tried by Hitler (Some of the aryan daughters I saw in the 60s were Very Very pretty).

I got the impression that this was also practised to some extent by Brigham Young and his Merry Men at one time (if you didn't fit, you were out).

Social Justice ? Tricky, that one. Bit deep for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice

 

[oggbashan]

The Romans (modern Italy)insisted on quinqueremes. The Venetians (modern Italy) wanted galleys manned with slaves and armed with cannon. The Italian team started fighting themselves.

The British were not helpful. They insisted on steam power for their craft because they had invented the steam engine. The Greeks objected because Hero of Alexandria invented steam propulsion. The Egyptians counter claimed that everyone knew that Alexandria was in Egypt.

The USA claimed they were the first to put steam power on water. The British and US teams started fighting with water cannon. Then they both turned their cannon on the Russians who claimed that Lenin had invented the steam engine. The Chinese smiled inscrutably. They knew that the steam engine had been invented before these barbarian nations existed.

 

[amicus]

Not as a refutation, Box, but I try not to post any statement in error....while searching, I note that Handley Page and Oggbashan logged in with comment...


http://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/eugenics/CA/CA.html


California

Number of Victims
In total, 20,108 people were sterilized in the state of California prior to 1964. California had by far the highest number of sterilizations in the United States (one third of all sterilizations nationwide). The numbers of men and women sterilized were about equal. Of the total sterilizations, almost 60% were considered mentally ill and more than 35% were considered mentally deficient. Men and women of Mexican origin represented between 7% and 8% of those sterilized (Stern, Eugenic Nation, p. 111). African Americans made up 1% of California’s population but accounted for 4% of the sterilizations (Stern, Eugenic Nation, p. 111).

The first state to introduce a compulsory sterilization bill was Michigan, in 1897 but the proposed law failed to garner enough votes by legislators to be adopted. Eight years later Pennsylvania's state legislators passed a sterilization bill that was vetoed by the governor. Indiana became the first state to enact sterilization legislation in 1907,[24] followed closely by Washington and California in 1909. Sterilization rates across the country were relatively low (California being the sole exception) until the 1927 Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell which legitimized the forced sterilization of patients at a Virginia home for the mentally retarded. The number of sterilizations performed per year increased until another Supreme Court case, Skinner v. Oklahoma, 1942, complicated the legal situation by ruling against sterilization of criminals if the equal protection clause of the constitution was violated. That is, if sterilization was to be performed, then it could not exempt white-collar criminals.[25]

Although less well-known than other eugenic sterilization programs, two Canadian provinces (Alberta and British Columbia) performed compulsory sterilization programs with eugenic aims.

In Britain, eugenics never received significant state funding, but it was supported by many prominent figures of different political persuasions before World War I, including: Liberal economists William Beveridge and John Maynard Keynes; Fabian socialists such as Irish author George Bernard Shaw, H. G. Wells and Sidney Webb; the future Prime Minister Winston Churchill; and Conservatives such as Arthur Balfour.[18]

~~~

Ah, poor Ogg, most rational people understand that Communisim, Socialism and National Socialism, Nazism, are bad things, systems that function without regard to individual human rights to life and liberty.

My point, as emphasized above, is the progressive liberal, left wing philosophy, since before the 20th century, is the matrix in which eugenics, social justice and social engineering functioned.

Stalin, Hitler & Mao are just political personalities; the real evil is in the progressive left wing philosophy which you defend on a daily basis.

Amicus

 

[amicus]

]Eugenics is a repulsive practice.

It was tried in the Balkans, it was tried by Hitler (Some of the aryan daughters I saw in the 60s were Very Very pretty).

I got the impression that this was also practised to some extent by Brigham Young and his Merry Men at one time (if you didn't fit, you were out).

Social Justice ? Tricky, that one. Bit deep for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice[/QUOTE]

~~~

From the Wiki reference:

"...Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system."

~~~

If you will note contemporary efforts to redistribute income, taxing the rich and nationalizing corporate property, you will see that the concept, repugnant as it is, is still alive.

Amicus

 

[Boxlicker101]

Not as a refutation, Box, but I try not to post any statement in error....while searching, I note that Handley Page and Oggbashan logged in with comment...


http://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/eugenics/CA/CA.html


California










~~~

Ah, poor Ogg, most rational people understand that Communisim, Socialism and National Socialism, Nazism, are bad things, systems that function without regard to individual human rights to life and liberty.

My point, as emphasized above, is the progressive liberal, left wing philosophy, since before the 20th century, is the matrix in which eugenics, social justice and social engineering functioned.

Stalin, Hitler & Mao are just political personalities; the real evil is in the progressive left wing philosophy which you defend on a daily basis.

Amicus

Okay, but 1964 was 46 years ago, not usually considered to be "the recent past." The sterilizations were not of criminals, per se, but of mentally retarded or insane persons in order to eliminate the genes that caused those conditions. A criminal of normal intelligence would not have been sterilized, unless it was by castration, chemical or physical, which was sometimes required of sex offenders before they were paroled. Sometimes women may have been sterilized if they were habitually child abusers or committed similar crimes, but that would have been as a condition of parole.

In other words, sterilization of prisoners of normal intelligence would have been performed only with the consent of the prisoners. The consent was not exactly freely given, because the alternative would have been to stay in prison, but they were given a choice.

 

[oggbashan]

The Islamic Nations went into a huddle and announced unanimously that a fatwa had been issued stating that rowing and the human race had originated in their holy lands and therefore any competitor must be a true Muslim and if women had to compete, and they couldn’t agree whether women should be allowed or not, they must do so wearing a chador.

The realisation that the Islamic Nations had actually agreed on anything temporarily halted all fighting in a state of shock. The Israeli rowers blocked the phone lines with their reports to Mossad.

It didn’t last long. There weren’t many representatives of the Islamic Nations. Deserts don’t encourage excellence in rowing. The Islamic representatives were systematically ducked by the world’s women rowers until they had reached another unanimous agreement to withdraw the fatwa. Their mullah would have been debagged if he had been wearing trousers. Instead he was piled in a naked heap of one and sprayed with the water cannon. He withdrew muttering imprecations and calling on Al-wotsit to avenge his wrongs. For that he was arrested and forcibly fed go-large Big Macs until he admitted that Al-wotsit was a front for Sad Dam Hussy and that he had concealed WMDs in the trousers he didn’t own.

 

[TxRad]

Amicus Nullorum,

The real evil is the repulsive 'sod everyone else' philosophy that you continually peddle.

I don't recognise my views as progressive left wing philosophy . I defend what are main stream views supported by the majority of electors in the UK, whatever their political party. The mixed economy, part capitalism and part government organisations, is common - even in the US. The differences between what private enterprise does and what public bodies do varies from democratic country to democratic country BY THE CHOICE OF THE ELECTORATE.

You can't understand that people can freely choose something other than your only way.

Og

Ami is stuck in the 50's when men were men and his family was his possessions. He has no concept of free society or what the word social means. Social, socialist. It's all the same to him. Hammer the same old crap over and over enough and he thinks someone will buy it.

Sorry Ami, but it seems you have finally pissed off everyone with your out of date antiquated crap.

 

[amicus]

It is amusing, it really is, I cracked a big smile after reading the above Posts by Ogg & TxRad...

Even as the Social Democracies of Europe come crashing down in bankruptcy and Ogg's own new government begins to dismantle the NHS because of bureaucratic overload, Ogg runs to the safety of the majority still refusing to identify and defend his own political stance.

TxRad & Ogg must always attempt personal character assassination to misdirect attention away from their utter failure to provide a moral or ethical justification for the virtual slavery of a collectivist society. After 40 years of spouting nonsense, the Obama Regime is discovering that the far left socialist agenda is being rejected across the board by mainstream AMERICA.

Pay heed to the righteous pontifications especially of the Ogg one, his incivility is the mere tip of the iceberg as to repercussion to any who dare assault the crumbling progressive agenda.

Oggbashan and TxRad by default, both advocate and openly support social engineering as a tool of change:

"...Extremely intensive social engineering campaigns occurred in countries with authoritarian governments. In the 1920s, the government of the Soviet Union embarked on a campaign to fundamentally alter the behavior and ideals of Soviet citizens, to replace the old social frameworks of Tsarist Russia with a new Soviet culture, to create the New Soviet man. The Soviets used newspapers, books, film, mass relocations, and even architectural design tactics to serve as "social condenser" and change personal values and private relationships. Similar examples are the Chinese "Great Leap Forward" and "Cultural Revolution" program and the Khmer Rouge's plan of deurbanization of Cambodia. In Singapore, the government's housing policies attempt to promote a mix of all races within each subsidized housing district in order to foster social cohesion and national loyalty while providing the citizens with affordable housing..."

~~~

The implication of that definition of social engineering is that 'intensive' social engineering is a bad thing but that moderate social engineering by the elite in society, is an useful tool.

Balderdash!

Poltical scientists of the leftish ilk are a dime a dozen and all are willing to sacrifice individual choice for the greater good of the collective.

If one can take Ogg at face value, he has been a small cog in a great grinding wheel reducing the once proud British into a mediocre third world economy and nation.

Amicus VERITAS

 

[statsultan]

Ami is stuck in the 50's when men were men and his family was his possessions. He has no concept of free society or what the word social means. Social, socialist. It's all the same to him. Hammer the same old crap over and over enough and he thinks someone will buy it.

Sorry Ami, but it seems you have finally pissed off everyone with your out of date antiquated crap.

I was going to say that you must mean the 1850s, only I think Amicus would bristle under the heavy regulatory burden of even rough and tumble Dodge City.

 

[amicus]

Oggbashan:

"...The real evil is the repulsive 'sod everyone else' philosophy that you continually peddle."

~~~

As I advocate a free society and a free economy, some might wonder what you find rupulsive about that.

"sod everyone else' seemed appropriate when Britain was by herself fighting Fascist Germany and Italy and begging FDR for help and support.

Perhaps you're not a real Brit, Ogg? An immigrant without understanding...of course, at face value, Og's words, he says he is a stalwart Brit in the mainstream electorate; but who really knows?

I would like to remind whoever read this, that freedom is rare among the nations and the history of the world.

The so called benign socialism of dear Oggbashan, who steadfastly denies his faith, is the rotten core of the British apple now fallen from the tree.

One should never apologize for advocating human individual liberty; quite the opposite, one should sing it from the highest pinnacle to remind those who inherited freedom and never earned it, of its' value.

Amicus

 

[al_Ussa]

I openly reject socialism and social engineering. I support personal freedoms. However, Ami, you are as much a product of social engineering as anyone. Of course you will fail to admit it, but you are stuck on a false notion of what America is. You feel the need to "proove" yourself - either to yourself or the people on these forums - as a ignorant backwater retard crudely aping at the ideals of the Founding Fathers.

You spout a bunch of jingos and political buzzwords without knowing what they mean. Why? Because you BELIEVE that is how you are supposed to act. In that way you are little different from some teenaged prick "rebelling" against the social norm by wearing the same clothing as his friends and listening to the same music. "I'm a non-conformist just like all my friends." Why don't you think for yourself instead. There is absolutely no reason for you or anyone else to be just like your neighbors or to copy the lifestyle of a time and/or place that never even existed in the first place.

Social engineering isn't just the work of those "evil" turtle-neck wearing Liberal intellectuals in the city. You yourself are living proof of it. As long as you try copying the redneck stereotypes then you are not a free human being. You merely choose to belong to a different and (in all fairness) lower socio-economic class. Have some dignity and leave the blue collar working class yobbos behind.

 

[oggbashan]

Oggbashan:

~~~

As I advocate a free society and a free economy, some might wonder what you find rupulsive about that.

"sod everyone else' seemed appropriate when Britain was by herself fighting Fascist Germany and Italy and begging FDR for help and support.

Perhaps you're not a real Brit, Ogg? An immigrant without understanding...of course, at face value, Og's words, he says he is a stalwart Brit in the mainstream electorate; but who really knows?

I would like to remind whoever read this, that freedom is rare among the nations and the history of the world.

The so called benign socialism of dear Oggbashan, who steadfastly denies his faith, is the rotten core of the British apple now fallen from the tree.

One should never apologize for advocating human individual liberty; quite the opposite, one should sing it from the highest pinnacle to remind those who inherited freedom and never earned it, of its' value.

Amicus

The Pan-African states had been having a tribal war of their own but no one paid them any attention. The Pan-American states were all stuffing themselves with the Big Macs the mullah couldn’t eat.

The Australians calmed everyone down with their ample supplies of ice-cold tins of beer. The mullah was persuaded, after the threat of another ducking, that Australian beer could be drunk by faithful Muslims. It couldn’t be alcoholic because it wasn’t mentioned by Mohammed.

The Australian team coach said “Jeez! We’ll run out of beer. Our beer may be the best in the world but if all the world drinks it there won’t be enough.” He rang the Australian Embassy who instantly recognised the threat to Australian pride and sporting achievement. Six jumbo jets full of beer landed the next day.