What *IS* BDSM?

[VelvetSin]

The BDSM Library links to a vague description.

Reading through threads, a regular theme is that expectations and degrees of kink will vary by relationship. That makes sense but that applies to every relationship with any label so that doesn't make BDSM unique from any other bedroom.

I assume it would connect to being tied up/down/sideways (bondage) but just as many threads refer to that as vanilla.

I assume it has something to do with incorporating pain into the act of sex, but biting, scratching, anal, and other things are also called vanilla.

Is it a quantity of toys included in the bedroom that makes a vanilla relationship turn to something called BDSM? Is it the degree that it's all pushed?

I've been told it's a willing submission to another's will for the sake of pleasure on both sides, but that's a common exchange that happens to some degree in every relationship, sexual or not. From what I've seen, the D/s thing is just a more formalized version of what happens every day everywhere.

Since opening the door on the conversation we've dabbled some rather than wait and it seems to be all those “vanilla” things just pushed a bit further. He agrees and finds the label kinda laughable but also admits he's been out of the “game” for a while but never saw it as ominous like a lot of people do and says it's all just a bit more kinky than the average next door neighbors.

I'm not trying to start a forest fire and hope this won't seem confrontational. I've just been trying to wrap my mind around the difference between this and any other kind of kink and am having a hard time seeing the line that makes a BDSM bedroom different from any other or what makes others label something “vanilla” versus “BDSM.”

 

[CutieMouse]

<snippage>

I assume it would connect to being tied up/down/sideways (bondage) but just as many threads refer to that as vanilla.

Except to those who aren't into bondage...

I assume it has something to do with incorporating pain into the act of sex, but biting, scratching, anal, and other things are also called vanilla.

Except to those who aren't into sadomasochism...

Is it a quantity of toys included in the bedroom that makes a vanilla relationship turn to something called BDSM?

What if the participants don't even bother with toys?

Is it the degree that it's all pushed?

Possibly.

I've been told it's a willing submission to another's will for the sake of pleasure on both sides, but that's a common exchange that happens to some degree in every relationship, sexual or not. From what I've seen, the D/s thing is just a more formalized version of what happens every day everywhere.

All relationships have a degree of give and take, true.

Since opening the door on the conversation we've dabbled some rather than wait and it seems to be all those “vanilla” things just pushed a bit further. He agrees and finds the label kinda laughable but also admits he's been out of the “game” for a while but never saw it as ominous like a lot of people do and says it's all just a bit more kinky than the average next door neighbors.

I'm not trying to start a forest fire and hope this won't seem confrontational. I've just been trying to wrap my mind around the difference between this and any other kind of kink and am having a hard time seeing the line that makes a BDSM bedroom different from any other or what makes others label something “vanilla” versus “BDSM.”

*Personal Opinion* is that the difference lies in the mindset of the persons involved. I view "BDSM" and the self-identifier of "submissive" as shorthand terms; the reality is more complex than that - just like people.

BTW - I never really thought of things in terms of BDSM being different from any other kink - whatever that is. I'm sure there are people out there who would say what I do in my personal relationships isn't BDSM, because it doesn't involve toys, dungeons, costumes, titles, paraphernalia, or protocol... but if I tell a "vanilla" guy (gods but I hate that term) that I refuse to run the show, and need mindfucks, pain, power and control (in and out of the bedroom), breathplay, and a lot of limit pushing in my sex life/relationship to feel fulfilled - he'll say it's BDSM.

People can call it Purple Sparkly My Little Pony Worship for all I care; in the end it still boils down to being a relationship. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ecstaticsub]

There are more similarities than differences between my vanilla marriage and my D/s relationship with my Dominant. I love both men and they both love me. Their happiness is more important than mine. I do what I can to take care of them both. I never say no to either when it comes to sex. At the core we have love, respect, loyalty in both relationships.

How are they different? It comes down to a state of mind and self awareness of my place. In my marriage I have equal say in all we do. In my D/s relationship my Dominant has the final say.

In practical terms the difference is in my marriage when an issue comes up we discuss it, we may argue about it. One or the other may give in. If I have to give in then there is a good chance I may be a bit resentful. But I get over it and life goes on.

In my D/s relationship when an issue comes up where we disagree I can either just give in immediately--which is often the case. Or if it is something I feel very strongly about I will respectfully ask to discuss it. He may or may not allow me. If he does I speak my mind calmly. He makes the final decision. There is no resentment on my part because I accept this is the way things are.

Both are loving strong relationships with their own pros and cons. I need them both to be who I am.

ETA: My relationship with my Dominant is much more a Dominant/submissive relationship as opposed to S&M. Discipline is a part of the relationship but we son't do munches, or play parties, or even do much as far as activities with implements and bondage.

 

[VelvetSin]

Except to those who aren't into bondage...
Except to those who aren't into sadomasochism...
What if the participants don't even bother with toys?
All relationships have a degree of give and take, true.

I think that's where my question sits. All relationships, even those called "vanilla" have different degrees of acceptability. I think what used to be acceptable ages and ages ago is now normal. Bondage (in maybe a fluffy form) is pretty common these days. I don't think I've ever heard of a romantic moment getting called off if one partner were to get carried away and leave scratches down the back of the other. The only big difference I've seen (even in the various threads, not just my limited personal experience) is the amount of communication before and after.

I never really thought of things in terms of BDSM being different from any other kink - whatever that is. I'm sure there are people out there who would say what I do in my personal relationships isn't BDSM, because it doesn't involve toys, dungeons, costumes, titles, paraphernalia, or protocol... but if I tell a "vanilla" guy (gods but I hate that term) that I refuse to run the show, and need mindfucks, pain, power and control (in and out of the bedroom), breathplay, and a lot of limit pushing in my sex life/relationship to feel fulfilled - he'll say it's BDSM.

I guess the vanilla label kinda bugs me as well, but that BDSM term does some too. It made it all seem like some scary territory only freaky people would venture into and that held me back for a long while (and I'm kinda pissed I wasted all that time). From what I've been allowed to play with so far, it was more intense and made the experience more crisp but I can't decide what made it that way. When you boil it down to its basic forms, it was all things that have been called "vanilla" in other formats.

People can call it Purple Sparkly My Little Pony Worship for all I care; in the end it still boils down to being a relationship. Nothing more, nothing less.

I like that much better. (The part about it being just a relationship that is, though Purple Sparkly My Little Pony Worship would certainly make it sound much less scary to folks thinking about giving it a shot!)

 

[VelvetSin]

In my D/s relationship when an issue comes up where we disagree I can either just give in immediately--which is often the case. Or if it is something I feel very strongly about I will respectfully ask to discuss it. He may or may not allow me. If he does I speak my mind calmly. He makes the final decision. There is no resentment on my part because I accept this is the way things are.

Maybe I'm just weird? This sounds fairly normal to me. Not all people get that degree of respect (few do) but I think it's a common thing for every relationship to have some D/s to them. It just seems like a more formal arrangement with terms set so both of you know where you stand ahead of time. Most everyday relationships still have that D/s thing without agreed terms so it's more random and open to misunderstanding.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Maybe I'm just weird? This sounds fairly normal to me. Not all people get that degree of respect (few do) but I think it's a common thing for every relationship to have some D/s to them. It just seems like a more formal arrangement with terms set so both of you know where you stand ahead of time. Most everyday relationships still have that D/s thing without agreed terms so it's more random and open to misunderstanding.

I don't agree that most relationships have a D/s aspect to them. My marriage does not. Neither of us have more power than the other. We talk over every major purchase, every major life changing event. (which for us has been many) It's totally give and take with equal amounts of giving and taking for each of us. No one has the final say.

I never tell my dominant "no". (ok, once in 5 years but it was a rough period) I don't even tell him "not right now". I may ask him if I could do something later, but never tell him.

 

[NomadLady]

New here...

But in my experience the D/s relationship is a much more secure, safe and fulfilling to experience. This is my second D/s relationship. My first was during my vanilla marriage and was an "affair". My Dom and I were both married to other people but I soon became aware that I would drop everything for the opportunity to spend the rest of my life with him.....that was 11 years ago. After it ended due to his job relocation I never thought I'd experience that type relationship again so I never pursued the lifestyle.

I just recently met a new Dom and am renewing my interested in this lifestyle but it is far better, and much more fulfilling/rewarding than any vanilla relationship I've ever had.

 

[rosco rathbone]

That depends on what " 'is' " is.

 

[VelvetSin]

I just recently met a new Dom and am renewing my interested in this lifestyle but it is far better, and much more fulfilling/rewarding than any vanilla relationship I've ever had.

That's where I am with this one, but I can't decide if it's because the relationship itself is just that much more connected or if it's because there is a feature to the relationship that didn't happen in past ones. We just adopted a formal D/s aspect but now that I see what's included, there was an informal D/s aspect before a name was put to it.

That depends on what " 'is' " is.

Who's on first?

I don't get it. (Where "it" is the quoted bit.)

 

[ecstaticsub]

But in my experience the D/s relationship is a much more secure, safe and fulfilling to experience. This is my second D/s relationship. My first was during my vanilla marriage and was an "affair". My Dom and I were both married to other people but I soon became aware that I would drop everything for the opportunity to spend the rest of my life with him.....that was 11 years ago. After it ended due to his job relocation I never thought I'd experience that type relationship again so I never pursued the lifestyle.

I just recently met a new Dom and am renewing my interested in this lifestyle but it is far better, and much more fulfilling/rewarding than any vanilla relationship I've ever had.

I know many very happy fulfilling vanilla relationships, I also know many very happy fulfilling power-exchange relationships. I also know many of each type of relationship that have gone horribly wrong and full of lies and cheating.

It's not the type of relationship it is the connection the individuals have between each other that matters.

 

[NomadLady]

I know many very happy fulfilling vanilla relationships, I also know many very happy fulfilling power-exchange relationships. I also know many of each type of relationship that have gone horribly wrong and full of lies and cheating.

It's not the type of relationship it is the connection the individuals have between each other that matters.

I think Estaticsub is right about this part, it is the connection. I never had that in my marriage.....I was cheated on and lied to for 14 years.

My Dom's have proven much more trustworthy however.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I can't define Purple Sparkly My Little Pony Worship, but I know it when I lust for it.

 

[Soumis]

feeling sammy

I'm going to be a dork here and say that I think the term bdsm defines itself...

B is for bondage...

D is for domination and/or discipline...

S is for sadism, sadomasochism, submissive, and/or sexual...

M is for masochism, Master, and or magic...

If you would call whatever you do one of the above then pull up a chair. Whether you want to tie people up with rope or with words it falls under the umbrella in my book.

 

[rosco rathbone]

That's where I am with this one, but I can't decide if it's because the relationship itself is just that much more connected or if it's because there is a feature to the relationship that didn't happen in past ones. We just adopted a formal D/s aspect but now that I see what's included, there was an informal D/s aspect before a name was put to it.




Who's on first?

I don't get it. (Where "it" is the quoted bit.)

What is " 'is' "?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

That depends on what " 'is' " is.

That quote, coming from you of all people Mr Rosco, has just made my entire week. And it's only Monday. That's how awesome it is.

 

[satindesire]

Who's on first?

I don't get it. (Where "it" is the quoted bit.)

He's referencing ex-pres Clinton talking about his relationship with Monica Lewenski. "That depends on what your definition of "Is" is." he said.

 

[LunachickXXX]

Certain things often exist long before there is a name for them...so providing the definition of a word is just really stating what the consensus of understanding is about the X...but in this case it is not to say this is X, and this is not X.

I think about it in terms of how we approach a new relationship, or how we bring new aspects into existing ones. As stated, many people practice bondage, S&M, PYL/pyl type relationships... but not all of the people who practice said things will necessarily self-identify as a member of the "BDSM community". Just as I know many women who will engage in sex acts with other women, but will not identify themselves as bisexual, pansexual, or gay. I think that self-identifying step is the thing that defines BDSM...it's the act of saying "I know about and practice things that fall under the umbrella (and it's a realllllyyy big umbrella)...and I consider myself part of the community forming under that umbrella"...whereas some people are under the umbrella, but don't consider themselves part of the community. To me, that's the only difference and it rests within the individual.

Edited: Just thought of another analogy that goes along with the "vanilla" vs bdsm statements.... There's a pond. Some people express no interest in getting in, nor getting wet. Some dip their feet in, some swim with their head above water, and some are completely submerged.. they're all "wet" so they all have some part in it, but at what point does wading turn to swimming? Making a specific distinction is futile...you can only clearly say who is wet and not wet; but of the wet people, you can't break it down further without introducing some sort of formalized ranking system.

 

[Homburg]

It's whatever you want it to be, and if you try too hard to define it people will argue with you until everyone is sick of it. See, if you define it, even for yourself, you are somehow non-consensually imposing your reality on others. Whee.

 

[ucleebo]

Great answer CM. One size does not fit all.

 

[VelvetSin]

Edited: Just thought of another analogy that goes along with the "vanilla" vs bdsm statements.... There's a pond. Some people express no interest in getting in, nor getting wet. Some dip their feet in, some swim with their head above water, and some are completely submerged.. they're all "wet" so they all have some part in it, but at what point does wading turn to swimming? Making a specific distinction is futile...you can only clearly say who is wet and not wet; but of the wet people, you can't break it down further without introducing some sort of formalized ranking system.

This is exactly what I was questioning. Sorry about the reeeeally obscure way of asking! I don't think I could have done basic arithmetic yesterday. Probably not the best time to go questioning the pond.

Along with, the more 'taboo' it's treated, the more off-limits and 'bad' it seems to anyone looking at it when I think there are a lot more people out there willing to dip their feet in (and maybe decide the water's perfect) if it wasn't so forbidden.

It's whatever you want it to be, and if you try too hard to define it people will argue with you until everyone is sick of it. See, if you define it, even for yourself, you are somehow non-consensually imposing your reality on others. Whee.

And then I woke up this morning and realized this.

And, the people in the pond aren't doing the taboo-classifying, so it was a little silly to question those labels here.

And some people probably prefer that it's taboo and naughty because that may enhance the fun-factor.

So, sorry to start a topic that's probably been discussed in other forms 1,999,999 other ways in other places. On with the Purple Sparkly My Little Pony Worship!

 

[rida]

I'm going to be a dork here and say that I think the term bdsm defines itself...

B is for bondage...

D is for domination and/or discipline...

S is for sadism, sadomasochism, submissive, and/or sexual...

M is for masochism, Master, and or magic...

If you would call whatever you do one of the above then pull up a chair. Whether you want to tie people up with rope or with words it falls under the umbrella in my book.

Then I'm another dork

*snip*
People can call it Purple Sparkly My Little Pony Worship for all I care; in the end it still boils down to being a relationship. Nothing more, nothing less.

That would be: PSLPW