Die doubt, die!

[Keroin]

In the process of working on the second draft for the ms today, I was deep into a scene that, upon each reading, seemed to feel more and more amateur and...well...crappy. This started the ball rolling and soon had me questioning what on earth possessed me to think I could be a novelist, blah, blah, blah. Very frustrating.

Ironically, while reading in the loo a short while after, I came across this quote from Francis Ford Coppola, "...there's a hormone secreted into the bloodstream of most writers that makes them hate their work while they are doing it, or immediately after."

Good timing.

Although I'm generally good at overcoming self doubt, it plagues me as much as anyone else and I wonder why we humans are cursed with such a negative emotion. Thinking about it, what I've managed to come up with is that I usually doubt myself most when the activity in question is very meaningful to me. Also, I've figured out that my best defense against it is to do a kind of "worst case scenario" evaluation, coupled with a round of "everyone feels this way" reassurance.

When and why do you doubt yourself?
How do you conquer that doubt?

If you're a pyl, does your PYL help you with your self doubt?
If you're a PYL, how does your self doubt affect your PYL-ness? (Or does it?)

Just curious.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Throwing my answers out there

When and why do you doubt yourself? Anything that has to do with artistic endeavors or emotional upheaval especially if I am the reason I am going through that emotional moment ie an ending of a relationship that I initiate.

How do you conquer that doubt? Usually by getting outside advice if it's relationship issues or depression for no good reason. Therapists sometimes. Artistically? I ask for help; get others to read and comment, people whose judgment I trust. At some point I may have to buckle down and rework, redo, write a Pro/Con list to buck up my initial thought process (or to admit my fuck up and move on)

If you're a PYL, how does your self doubt affect your PYL-ness? (Or does it?)
When it's a serious issue, I withdraw. It affects everything I do until I can move past it (when the doubts come from a personal choice issue). MOst other self doubt issues don't affect much of anything because they are things I can fix, eventually.

 

[DVS]

In the process of working on the second draft for the ms today, I was deep into a scene that, upon each reading, seemed to feel more and more amateur and...well...crappy. This started the ball rolling and soon had me questioning what on earth possessed me to think I could be a novelist, blah, blah, blah. Very frustrating.

Ironically, while reading in the loo a short while after, I came across this quote from Francis Ford Coppola, "...there's a hormone secreted into the bloodstream of most writers that makes them hate their work while they are doing it, or immediately after."

Good timing.

Although I'm generally good at overcoming self doubt, it plagues me as much as anyone else and I wonder why we humans are cursed with such a negative emotion. Thinking about it, what I've managed to come up with is that I usually doubt myself most when the activity in question is very meaningful to me. Also, I've figured out that my best defense against it is to do a kind of "worst case scenario" evaluation, coupled with a round of "everyone feels this way" reassurance.

When and why do you doubt yourself?
How do you conquer that doubt?

If you're a pyl, does your PYL help you with your self doubt?
If you're a PYL, how does your self doubt affect your PYL-ness? (Or does it?)

Just curious.

When I write something and it doesn't even turn me on, I doubt if it will turn anybody else on.

I don't conquer that doubt. It's called inspiration. If it isn't there, it isn't there. The main reason I haven't written anything of value in the last year or more. No inspiration.

Other than when I write, I don't doubt myself at all. I know what I can do and what I can't. I don't try to snow anybody with something I can't do. It's just not me. It isn't worth the effort, because somewhere down the road, you're going to be found out as a liar or a fake, if not something worse. So, I am what I am, and that's all there is to it. That sometimes makes me dull.

 

[Netzach]

When and why do you doubt yourself?
All. The. Fucking. Time.

I don't know why, exactly. It just cycles around a lot. You name the topic, it has made me insecure at some point.

I work from doubt to doubt. I just put my head down and pretend I didn't hear that from my brain and continue as if.

How do you conquer that doubt?

Eventually it goes away - I've gotten good at just letting it pass through, like a breath. Usually quickly. Every time.

I've gotten better - especially adept at ignoring the "you are a fraud" voice. That one's pretty much dead.


If you're a PYL, how does your self doubt affect your PYL-ness? (Or does it?)

Badly. Endemically. It's my biggest struggle. The more intimate the rel. the bigger the doubt. I'm often paralyzed playing with M after being ill this long, but never with CASUAL partners oh noes.

 

[ImOnIt]

I doubt much of the time. I was raised by a people pleaser, so someone expressing unhappiness with me can trigger something internally. Also if I fuck up, if I spend too much time without quality hanging out time one on one with someone. In shopping malls/ churches. Anywhere hundreds of people behave the same way without a reason for it.

I get over it in the short term by making direct eye contact with someone who has criticised me. By not taking myself so seriously. By exercising until I feel strong. By cooking until I have made something delicious. Talking to someone who will listen.

I think my doubt affects my PYL-ness both ways. Sometimes I am more understanding, patient, and know how to exhibit calming behaviour. If I doubt myself, I am less involved as PYL/partner, less playful and a little harder to be around. I like to be aware of my moods.


Its perfectly fine to feel things. Doubt probably isn't something ill 'get over'.



K, didn't you say quite recently that you went through periods of doubt in your skills? At least you don't burn everything you've ever written... there are a couple of people people who have done that, some quite regularly

 

[YourCaptor]

I don't doubt myself, only if I've run up against a wall over and over and over again will things actually click and I wonder, is it me?

I thinks that is so, because usually when I recognize the problem is with me I just fix it, no emotion involved. But when its something were I can't really change, only after failing over and over again do I give in and think its something about me that I can't influence. And that sucks. However in those cases people are usually standing by telling me I tried everything, no reason to be down about it.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

When and why do you doubt yourself?

All the time. No reason. It just happens. I don't like it.

How do you conquer that doubt?

I don't know if I conquer it, so much as distract myself till it goes away again.

If you're a pyl, does your PYL help you with your self doubt?

Usually mine stems from over thinking and getting caught up in my own head, so he tells me to stop, relax, breathe, put my thoughts in order. He helps me break an issue down to it's smallest parts, and line them up so I can tackle them one at a time.

And he tells me I'm awesome.

 

[eastern sun]

I doubt myself frequently, usually when I see an alternative that I like. I stop and consider it. If there's any merits to the alternative, I can get totally confused as to which choice I should make and I stall. (Really, what I'm doing is waiting for myself to make a commitment to one or the other choice. This can take a while.)

I'm easily influenced by other people's comments and opinions, so when I'm working artistically these days, I've been working alone, until I'm thoroughly committed to my ideas. Otherwise, I will cede ground too quickly (and then get frustrated when the finished product doesn't reflect my initial ideas).

My husband used to help me by making the decisions! That dispels doubt. But as I got older, I started resisting his influence (and initiating my own projects) because I wanted to hear my own voice. We stopped working together about six years ago. And I've had to work through creative doubt on my own.

In order to conquer the doubt, I listen to my heart. (It sounds kind of stupid, but if I can actually silence all the voices in my head, I know what I want.) I just sit and try to fully imagine the finished product - for days and days sometimes - and when I can see the whole thing clearly - and know I love it - I commit myself to moving in that direction. Then I stop frequently as I work, to make sure I'm still moving towards that original idea - and haven't gotten side-tracked (which often happens as I get more and more great ideas ).

When it comes to parenting, though - fuhgeddabout it! I spin in endless cycles of confidence and doubt, and I doubt I'll ever be truly confident until they're confident in the face of their doubts.

 

[midwestyankee]

Morons don't doubt themselves. They don't know any better.

I often doubt whether my work is good enough but that generally means that I know I could make incremental improvements until the cows come home.

Beethoven was rarely satisfied with his work. Mozart was rarely satisfied with his work. I don't think I've ever read of an author saying that their work couldn't have been improved if they'd just kept at it a little longer. Usually editors have to wrench the last pages from the writers' hands. Else nothing would ever get published.

Doubt in art and work is a sign that you know what you're doing.

 

[Homburg]

When and why do you doubt yourself?

When I'm not making sufficient money. It may sound stupid, but it's eminently true. And by enough, I don't means money to buy fru-fru toys. I mean the money to pay the bills. When that happens, I doubt myself, my ability, and my decision to choose this path instead of something more secure.

There are other minor things, but this is the scenario that is most blatant.

How do you conquer that doubt?

I generally don't until I start making good money again.

If you're a pyl, does your PYL help you with your self doubt?

I'm not a pyl, but my partners do what they can to help, and it does help a bit in the short term.

If you're a PYL, how does your self doubt affect your PYL-ness? (Or does it?)

Very much so. Like Luna, I tend to withdraw. Depression for me is low level apathy, that's how I react. If I don't care, I tend to not get shit done anywhere, and that include PYL shit.

 

[Keroin]

That sometimes makes me dull.

Or maybe it just makes you stable and reliable and happy?

I don't doubt myself, only if I've run up against a wall over and over and over again will things actually click and I wonder, is it me?

I thinks that is so, because usually when I recognize the problem is with me I just fix it, no emotion involved. But when its something were I can't really change, only after failing over and over again do I give in and think its something about me that I can't influence. And that sucks. However in those cases people are usually standing by telling me I tried everything, no reason to be down about it.

Sometimes there's just nothing you can do about "you". There aspects to all of us that make some environments or situations unworkable. It sure does help to have friends and supporters, though.

And he tells me I'm awesome.

This is the best. Seriously. Having a partner who doles out genuine praise, both privately and publicly, has done wonders for me and my self-doubt.

I'm easily influenced by other people's comments and opinions, so when I'm working artistically these days, I've been working alone, until I'm thoroughly committed to my ideas. Otherwise, I will cede ground too quickly (and then get frustrated when the finished product doesn't reflect my initial ideas).

I think letting others in too early in the process can be the kiss of death. You are wise to keep your work to yourself until you feel secure in your ideas. I don't like to share my work until I have a first draft that I am happy with.

Doubt in art and work is a sign that you know what you're doing.

Whew!

When and why do you doubt yourself?

When I'm not making sufficient money. It may sound stupid, but it's eminently true. And by enough, I don't means money to buy fru-fru toys. I mean the money to pay the bills. When that happens, I doubt myself, my ability, and my decision to choose this path instead of something more secure.

There are other minor things, but this is the scenario that is most blatant.

How do you conquer that doubt?

I generally don't until I start making good money again.

If you're a pyl, does your PYL help you with your self doubt?

I'm not a pyl, but my partners do what they can to help, and it does help a bit in the short term.

If you're a PYL, how does your self doubt affect your PYL-ness? (Or does it?)

Very much so. Like Luna, I tend to withdraw. Depression for me is low level apathy, that's how I react. If I don't care, I tend to not get shit done anywhere, and that include PYL shit.

If you're a PYL, how does your self doubt affect your PYL-ness? (Or does it?)
When it's a serious issue, I withdraw. It affects everything I do until I can move past it (when the doubts come from a personal choice issue). MOst other self doubt issues don't affect much of anything because they are things I can fix, eventually.

If you're a PYL, how does your self doubt affect your PYL-ness? (Or does it?)

Badly. Endemically. It's my biggest struggle. The more intimate the rel. the bigger the doubt. I'm often paralyzed playing with M after being ill this long, but never with CASUAL partners oh noes.

I think my doubt affects my PYL-ness both ways. Sometimes I am more understanding, patient, and know how to exhibit calming behaviour. If I doubt myself, I am less involved as PYL/partner, less playful and a little harder to be around. I like to be aware of my moods.

I wonder if doubt = withdrawal is a common denominator for PYL's? It's interesting to me that pyl's tend to be the ones (on here, at least) who seem most self conscious and self doubting, and yet I've often thought that it must be far, far more difficult for a PYL when they come up against these feelings. And we're all human, we all have them, to greater or lessor degrees.

While it is socially acceptable for a pyl to be a little "fragile", I get the sense that there is an expectation that the PYL should be the strong one, the leader, the one with her/his shit together.

I know with L, when he doubts himself, he goes into major withdrawal and it affects every aspect of our life. And like you, Hommy, he seems to doubt himself most over money - not the money itself, but the fact that he sees himself as unable to provide properly for me, (even though we work together most of the time and I don't expect anyone to provide for me)). It's agony for me to watch him during these times because I feel so utterly helpless. I try everything I can to pull him out, but aside from sex on demand and constant reassurances that he is awesomeness incarnate and I love him, nothing seems to make a dent.

I am just the opposite and tend to talk through my self doubt...with anyone who will listen L is usually able to pull me out quite easily, (I call him my Public Relations Manager/Fan Club president, lol), which makes it even more frustrating for me that I can't return the favour for him.

K, didn't you say quite recently that you went through periods of doubt in your skills? At least you don't burn everything you've ever written... there are a couple of people people who have done that, some quite regularly

LOL, no I haven't done that but I do know someone who did! I actually keep all of my old work - as a guidepost to see how far I've come. I still have the second novel manuscript I ever attempted to write. I wrote about 100 pages of a "sword and sorcerer" type story, long hand, in several small notebooks, when I was 16. It is awful. I mean stinky awful, on all fronts, but I'll keep it forever. (It's good for a laugh if nothing else )

 

[Netzach]

I wonder if doubt = withdrawal is a common denominator for PYL's? It's interesting to me that pyl's tend to be the ones (on here, at least) who seem most self conscious and self doubting, and yet I've often thought that it must be far, far more difficult for a PYL when they come up against these feelings. And we're all human, we all have them, to greater or lessor degrees.

While it is socially acceptable for a pyl to be a little "fragile", I get the sense that there is an expectation that the PYL should be the strong one, the leader, the one with her/his shit together.

I know with L, when he doubts himself, he goes into major withdrawal and it affects every aspect of our life. And like you, Hommy, he seems to doubt himself most over money - not the money itself, but the fact that he sees himself as unable to provide properly for me, (even though we work together most of the time and I don't expect anyone to provide for me)). It's agony for me to watch him during these times because I feel so utterly helpless. I try everything I can to pull him out, but aside from sex on demand and constant reassurances that he is awesomeness incarnate and I love him, nothing seems to make a dent.

I am just the opposite and tend to talk through my self doubt...with anyone who will listen L is usually able to pull me out quite easily, (I call him my Public Relations Manager/Fan Club president, lol), which makes it even more frustrating for me that I can't return the favour for him.

I definitely talk to people I think are smart in these instances, or do something I *know* I can do for a while - but I also have been known to crawl off and withdraw from the problem if not the person involved.

Definitely the power dynamic suffers, but I've gotten to a point where I'm OK with that. I really don't care, I used to feel terrible guilt, but you know what, shit changes people, people change, and the energy I once had is not there the same way now. I don't have to explain myself or compare myself to other D's who have gotten chronically sick and never lost their awe-inspiring control for one second. Whee.

Maslow is right, SM fiction in which D's don't ever lose their magnetic powers is not.

I blame the fuck out of the BDSM community for making this issue worse than it has to be - in our concern to make sure yahoos aren't ordering people around to get boners, we've made a myth that anyone whose control freak nature might at any time *fail* is unworthy to consider herself Dominant. So when it does, it must mean I was never cut out for this to start, right?

It's bullshit. It's total bullshit. It also, I think, contributes to the *paucity* of Dommes myth, because most women will look at the "this means you are a Dominant" kinds of things and will fail to see themselves in it, because we're taught to be more at-ease with a periodic failure of the total control mechanisms. I'm not that, so I can't possibly be that.

 

[JMohegan]

When and why do you doubt yourself?
How do you conquer that doubt?

Doubt about the point of existence. Doubt as to whether I really have any meaningful control over anything at all. Big picture stuff.

Don't hold your breath; I'll let you know if I do.

 

[rosco rathbone]

yahoos ordering people around to get boners,

.....

 

[Keroin]

I definitely talk to people I think are smart in these instances, or do something I *know* I can do for a while - but I also have been known to crawl off and withdraw from the problem if not the person involved.

Definitely the power dynamic suffers, but I've gotten to a point where I'm OK with that. I really don't care, I used to feel terrible guilt, but you know what, shit changes people, people change, and the energy I once had is not there the same way now. I don't have to explain myself or compare myself to other D's who have gotten chronically sick and never lost their awe-inspiring control for one second. Whee.

Maslow is right, SM fiction in which D's don't ever lose their magnetic powers is not.

I blame the fuck out of the BDSM community for making this issue worse than it has to be - in our concern to make sure yahoos aren't ordering people around to get boners, we've made a myth that anyone whose control freak nature might at any time *fail* is unworthy to consider herself Dominant. So when it does, it must mean I was never cut out for this to start, right?

It's bullshit. It's total bullshit. It also, I think, contributes to the *paucity* of Dommes myth, because most women will look at the "this means you are a Dominant" kinds of things and will fail to see themselves in it, because we're taught to be more at-ease with a periodic failure of the total control mechanisms. I'm not that, so I can't possibly be that.

Netz, I am getting in the habit of reading your posts then re-reading them an hour later to get the "added bonus edits", lol.

Some really interesting thoughts to chew on there. For me, not having any exposure to the BDSM world prior to finding Lit, I've found the stereotypes and expectations and labels and what not at once fascinating and mildly annoying.

There are definitely times when L's ego is in the slumps and thus he is not feeling up to being the boss. I think it's hard enough for him just getting through that, I can't imagine how much worse it would be if there were also the expectation that he must be the all-powerful, all-knowing, never-fail PYL.

Doubt about the point of existence. Doubt as to whether I really have any meaningful control over anything at all. Big picture stuff.

Don't hold your breath; I'll let you know if I do.

*Stops holding breath*

 

[Netzach]

.....

God forbid, right?

 

[neci]

sometimes you have to take doubt and just fuck it. fuck it hard. i hate when it creeps up and says this sucks. you're wasting your time here. i have conversations with my pieces. sometimes they dominate me, and sometimes i am able to dominate them. sometimes it's a nice cold hard fuck combined with completely losing yourself in the process. other times it comes early and you get stuck cleaning up a sticky mess.

there's also that paralyzing doubt combined with fear. the key for me is being able to tap into the rawness and feel it. then try and let it back out. then practice, practice and practice. walking through it. not letting it stop you for too long. growing from it. learning from it. not let it get in the way of the journey.

 

[Homburg]

It's agony for me to watch him during these times because I feel so utterly helpless.

Mine feel the same way when I am in a funk. viv is mor eused to it, as she's seen my brooding over the years. MIS not so much.

Sadly, I feel bad for them because of it, which just makes me feel worse.

--

And I used to worry about the exact thing Netz mentioned. How could I be this bad-ass domly dude with these doubts, lack of interest, etc. It lead to me falling out of the practice for a few years. It took outside impetus to get my interest rekindled, as someone managed to pull it out of me. I realise that I've not been doing as much of it lately, and I link it directly to these sort of negative feelings. That said, I haven't stopped, as I am less of the opinion that what anyone outside this house thinks is largely irrelevant. So long as everyone in the dynamic is cool with where things are going, I'm doing something right enough.

It doesn't make me feel better, but I don't feel worse.

 

[YourCaptor]

It sure does help to have friends and supporters, though.

Hey, I caught that. Self flattery, that's bad form.

 

[Keroin]

Mine feel the same way when I am in a funk. viv is mor eused to it, as she's seen my brooding over the years. MIS not so much.

Sadly, I feel bad for them because of it, which just makes me feel worse.

--

And I used to worry about the exact thing Netz mentioned. How could I be this bad-ass domly dude with these doubts, lack of interest, etc. It lead to me falling out of the practice for a few years. It took outside impetus to get my interest rekindled, as someone managed to pull it out of me. I realise that I've not been doing as much of it lately, and I link it directly to these sort of negative feelings. That said, I haven't stopped, as I am less of the opinion that what anyone outside this house thinks is largely irrelevant. So long as everyone in the dynamic is cool with where things are going, I'm doing something right enough.

It doesn't make me feel better, but I don't feel worse.

Yeah, the first time L went into one of these moods it totally threw me. We'd been together for five years and I'd seen nothing but over-the-top confidence from him almost 24/7. Now, several years and lots of life "stuff" later, I am able to recognize what's happening and not fret about it...as much.

I focus more on just being ready for him when he's ready and not trying to fix the situation or pull him out of it because, as you mentioned, it only makes him feel worse. Though, I'll admit, it is awfully hard for me to feel so impotent.

Hey, I caught that. Self flattery, that's bad form.

Bad K? Was that you?

 

[Homburg]

I focus more on just being ready for him when he's ready and not trying to fix the situation or pull him out of it because, as you mentioned, it only makes him feel worse. Though, I'll admit, it is awfully hard for me to feel so impotent.

It's really tough to sexualise that sort of powerlessness, no?

 

[Keroin]

It's really tough to sexualise that sort of powerlessness, no?

Nigh on impossible.

 

[Seurat]

When and why do you doubt yourself?

All the time. It's what drives me to write/draw/listen to music/do anything in the least bit creative. No doubt, and I get the 'superior' feeling, and creativity suffers to the point of stagnation. If you can ride a bike, there has to be that little bit of doubt in your abilities if you want to stay sane and safe. Lose the doubt, you get overconfident and screw up in traffic. Lose the doubt with a sub, and somebody's going to get hurt.


[/quote]How do you conquer that doubt?[/quote]
Faith. Two sides of the same coin, no matter what the topic: religion, domming, writing, finger-painting. But as I said above: you need a little doubt for the faith to exist, and you need faith (in your abilities) to survive.

It's bullshit. It's total bullshit. It also, I think, contributes to the *paucity* of Dommes myth, because most women will look at the "this means you are a Dominant" kinds of things and will fail to see themselves in it, because we're taught to be more at-ease with a periodic failure of the total control mechanisms. I'm not that, so I can't possibly be that.

One of my favorite pieces from my own fiction library was a little snippet where a domme quits after getting fed up with everything that is expected from her by her subs. It was a shot at all the stories of 24/7 domination, where the authors forgot that the characters were supposed to portray people, not just idealistic visions of perfect BDSM relationships.

Geez, now I got another story idea. How about a domme/sub relationship, where one or both start to doubt not only their abilities, but their place in the relationship? I'm never going to get anything finished now.

 

[Homburg]

I was working on something with itunes on shuffle in the background and Everclear's "Amphetamine" came on. For whatever reason, it rose above the level of background noise and caught my conscious mind for a moment. There is a particular bit of lyrics towards the end that got me thinking:

Met her at a party and I took her home
She is the saddest girl that I have ever known
She wakes me up in the middle of the night
Just to tell me everything will be alright
Amy smiles at me and tells me everything will be alright
Yeah, Amy smiles at me and tells me everything will be alright
Yeah, I tell myself the same damn thing

The tone on the last line is bitter, probably sardonic, and carries emotional weight. I sat there thinking about it and realised that I have had people in my life ask me to tell that everything would be alright, and I know people that will tell themselves that as well.

What struck me is that I've never told myself that. I've never sat there hoping/lying to myself that whatever situation was going on would turn out well. It just doesn't occur to me to think that way. My thoughts are more along the lines of, "One more thing to live through," or somesuch.

I realised that this is along the lines of this thread and might illustrate something about me and doubt.

 

[Keroin]

I was working on something with itunes on shuffle in the background and Everclear's "Amphetamine" came on. For whatever reason, it rose above the level of background noise and caught my conscious mind for a moment. There is a particular bit of lyrics towards the end that got me thinking:

Met her at a party and I took her home
She is the saddest girl that I have ever known
She wakes me up in the middle of the night
Just to tell me everything will be alright
Amy smiles at me and tells me everything will be alright
Yeah, Amy smiles at me and tells me everything will be alright
Yeah, I tell myself the same damn thing

The tone on the last line is bitter, probably sardonic, and carries emotional weight. I sat there thinking about it and realised that I have had people in my life ask me to tell that everything would be alright, and I know people that will tell themselves that as well.

What struck me is that I've never told myself that. I've never sat there hoping/lying to myself that whatever situation was going on would turn out well. It just doesn't occur to me to think that way. My thoughts are more along the lines of, "One more thing to live through," or somesuch.

I realised that this is along the lines of this thread and might illustrate something about me and doubt.

Thanks for that, H.

Reading that, I suddenly realized how many times I've said to L, "It'll all work out. Life is good." Now, while I do believe our life is good - especially in the very big picture - I don't always really believe that the particular situation at the time is actually going to work out, no matter what I tell him or anyone else. That's just me trying to be the "happy/positive" one.

My fractured molars tell a much different story.

Hm.