Concertgoers show the Reich stuff, are beaten by crowd

[JackLuis]

Philadelphia, city of ... ?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Hitler had the same reception in the beginning. But as time passed the hecklers became fewer and fewer.

 

[Weird Harold]

Philadelphia, city of ... ?

I think the "related stories" sound more interesting

• RELATED STORIES
• Woman charged with setting friend's face on fire
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• Body found in Pennsylvania is woman seen with offender
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• 3 sentenced in fatal Schuylkill Expressway crash
• City plan to sell vacant properties waits on the market
• Two-year term for ex-officer for raid tip-off
• Cherry Hill man killed in hit-and-run mourned
• Colleges plan to fill state budget scholarship gap
• Child-labor permits allows reality show to go on
• Who's replacing Camille Barnett?

 

[JackLuis]

According to the Philly Cops, there was a disturbance and by the time they got there it was all over, no harm no foul, and "Adolphe, bleeding on the Mayors streets is not allowed, move along."

I guess there are social limits to our actions, even in America. If the beaten were Gay or Lesbian or... what ever, the ACLU would be on the case, but since it's just Nazi Thugs, they get no sympathy.

When in fact Nazi Thugs probably need more love than anyone. They are heavily conflicted in their minds and need the nourishing touch of someone to break through that shell they erect to keep the hurt out.

People change, sometimes, don't they?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Sometimes? Yeah, sometimes. Often? Fuggedaboudit!

 

[Tio_Narratore]

According to the Philly Cops, there was a disturbance and by the time they got there it was all over, no harm no foul, and "Adolphe, bleeding on the Mayors streets is not allowed, move along."

I guess there are social limits to our actions, even in America. If the beaten were Gay or Lesbian or... what ever, the ACLU would be on the case, but since it's just Nazi Thugs, they get no sympathy.

When in fact Nazi Thugs probably need more love than anyone. They are heavily conflicted in their minds and need the nourishing touch of someone to break through that shell they erect to keep the hurt out.

People change, sometimes, don't they?

Don't stereotype, Jack; the ACLU has defended the Nazis' and other right-wing groups' rights to free speech and lawful assembly.

SOme of us think democracy is a question of respecting and defending everyone's rights, not just the ones you agree with.

 

[PoppingTom]

Philadelphia, city of ... ?

Sorry, but they deserved this. I don't have any compassion with them.

When in fact Nazi Thugs probably need more love than anyone.

Nazis need confrontation with their ideology. Much as in "American History X".

Without confrontation, they think of theirselves as avantgarde or elite.

I had to deal with nazis. I respected them as humans, but I never respected or tolerated their ideology. That's the cut you always have to do. Their ideology is inhuman. If they never learn this, they don't want to learn this, which means they don't want to be humans. A nazi can never be a martyr.

 

[driphoney]

Were there Nazi's who were non-white-supremacists? Can the socialist aspects of the Nazi movement be teased out from the racist/white-supremacist dogma that is commonly understood as being inherently German Nazi?

And do you think today's Nazi movement has any remaining socialist push, or is it nothing but a white-supremacist club sporting swastikas?

And do you think there are degrees of white supremacy? Are most American whites in denial of their own white supremacist attitudes? How about most of white Europeans? What is the acceptable line? This racist here is pure evil, that one over there is acceptable? How do you define it? Can you? Should you?

I saw a documentary in class this week and an African-American male stated that the most lethal form of racism, in his opinion, is committed by decent, honest, caring white folks.

Is there subtle, cultural white privilege? If so, how does it manifest itself? And if so, does this possible humming undertone help prop up more aggressive forms of racism, such as a continued Nazi movement?

Are those who think they are not part of the problem actually the seed-bank? If so, how does it end? What does the individual do?

Or, is there really no racism outside of weirdo groups like modern Nazis?

These comments and thoughts are not finger-pointing questions targeted at anyone, and shouldn't be taken personally. If we never consider these things in an open and honest manner, how can we learn, grow and, if need be, change? I would like some non-finger-pointing discourse, if possible. Might be a fantasy, but where is a woman if she has no hope?

 

[JackLuis]

-
These comments and thoughts are not finger-pointing questions targeted at anyone, and shouldn't be taken personally. If we never consider these things in an open and honest manner, how can we learn, grow and, if need be, change? I would like some non-finger-pointing discourse, if possible. Might be a fantasy, but where is a woman if she has no hope?

driphoney, you captured the irony of the situation.

How do we choose those who do not deserve our respect?

I'm quite sure these "Nazi's" were posers. In black leather and glittering badges flaunting themselves like Teen Princesses, with a macho air. But they do deserve the respect of the law.

These are issues fit for literature.

 

[Verdad]

Were there Nazi's who were non-white-supremacists? Can the socialist aspects of the Nazi movement be teased out from the racist/white-supremacist dogma that is commonly understood as being inherently German Nazi?

And do you think today's Nazi movement has any remaining socialist push, or is it nothing but a white-supremacist club sporting swastikas?

And do you think there are degrees of white supremacy? Are most American whites in denial of their own white supremacist attitudes? How about most of white Europeans? What is the acceptable line? This racist here is pure evil, that one over there is acceptable? How do you define it? Can you? Should you?

I saw a documentary in class this week and an African-American male stated that the most lethal form of racism, in his opinion, is committed by decent, honest, caring white folks.

Is there subtle, cultural white privilege? If so, how does it manifest itself? And if so, does this possible humming undertone help prop up more aggressive forms of racism, such as a continued Nazi movement?

Are those who think they are not part of the problem actually the seed-bank? If so, how does it end? What does the individual do?

Or, is there really no racism outside of weirdo groups like modern Nazis?

These comments and thoughts are not finger-pointing questions targeted at anyone, and shouldn't be taken personally. If we never consider these things in an open and honest manner, how can we learn, grow and, if need be, change? I would like some non-finger-pointing discourse, if possible. Might be a fantasy, but where is a woman if she has no hope?

Well, the first two are pretty straightforward. Nazism is inherently racist. That's about all it is.

By contrast, a 'remaining socialist thrust' would be hard to find, seeing there was none to begin with except in the Nazi party's name. Those among the early Nazi party members who made a mistake of taking the name half seriously were dealt with swiftly as soon as Hitler ascended to power. Certainly today, donning an SS uniform isn't a way of expressing a socialist bent. It expresses exactly what it looks like it expresses—unless what it expresses is simply colossal stupidity.

The rest, about subtle guises of racism, may be interesting in its own right, but to my mind doesn't even belong in the same discussion. For once I can be quite simple and say that Tom expresses my sentiments. No sympathy.

 

[driphoney]

The rest, about subtle guises of racism, may be interesting in its own right, but to my mind doesn't even belong in the same discussion. For once I can be quite simple and say that Tom expresses my sentiments. No sympathy.

I wasn't even thinking about sympathy for Nazis. And they were two branches of thought.

So, you do believe there are subtle guises of racism? And they are different and in no way connected, or help to promote, extreme racism? And those subtle forms are not as bad as overt, Nazi-style racism, even if, by their very under-noticed nature (by the dominant race,) they help maintain a long-term barrier in America or Europe? Do you think there is a barrier?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

"Everyone is a racist of one sort or another," an African-American hunting buddy of mine once said, "Just don't be a bigot about it!" Heck, you want to see racists? Check out Japan. By many standards of measurement (and not just one bear's opinion) the most racist people in America are elderly African-Americans, those same people who gave Prop 8 enough votes to pass. But the rest of us aren't immune by any means. So just don't be a bigot about your own and you can feel free to beat the snot out of self-proclaimed bigots.

 

[driphoney]

"Everyone is a racist of one sort or another," an African-American hunting buddy of mine once said, "Just don't be a bigot about it!" Heck, you want to see racists? Check out Japan. By many standards of measurement (and not just one bear's opinion) the most racist people in America are elderly African-Americans, those same people who gave Prop 8 enough votes to pass. But the rest of us aren't immune by any means. So just don't be a bigot about your own and you can feel free to beat the snot out of self-proclaimed bigots.

So, is racism by a minority group the same as racism by a dominant group?

 

[SeaCat]

So, is racism by a minority group the same as racism by a dominant group?

Racism is racism irregardles of who is commiting it, just as hatred is hatred no matter who it is directed at or by whom.

Cat

 

[voluptuary_manque]

So, is racism by a minority group the same as racism by a dominant group?

Racism is racism irregardles of who is commiting it, just as hatred is hatred no matter who it is directed at or by whom.

Cat

Precisely. There is no virtue in being a racist just because you're outnumbered.

 

[driphoney]

Racism is racism irregardles of who is commiting it, just as hatred is hatred no matter who it is directed at or by whom.

Cat

Racism can be exhibited by anyone towards another race, but is it equal? Does the one have more significance than the other?

Okay. Let me see if I can 'splain what I'm thinking about. If you're white, you don't have to think much about what it means to be white. You just see yourself as human. Normal. Most of the time (not all,) if you're the average white American, you can live your life feeling relatively secure. You can pick where you live for the most part and pick a safe neighborhood, you can grocery shop, drive around at night, send your kids off to school, get your hair cut at a variety of locations and rarely worry about it.

Whether it's perceived or real, a minority does not always feel that same level of security.

I'm sure I'm butchering this idea, sorry.

Whites still make up about 75% of the population. Are the consequences the same for a minority as for a white person if they exhibit racism?

 

[driphoney]

Precisely. There is no virtue in being a racist just because you're outnumbered.

I'm sorry if I was misunderstood. I would never suggest that there's ever virtue in judging a person on his race. Do you feel some believe this?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I'm sorry if I was misunderstood. I would never suggest that there's ever virtue in judging a person on his race. Do you feel some believe this?

A couple of years ago there was a widely disseminated opinion that only white people could be racist because to be a racist you had to have power. That's bullshit. If you judge a person by the color of their skin first and foremost, you are a racist, Q E D. Oppressed or oppressor, it makes no difference. Stereotypical thinking is stereotypical thinking and it sticks in my craw no matter who is doing it. That's why I have so many here on Ignore!

 

[driphoney]

A couple of years ago there was a widely disseminated opinion that only white people could be racist because to be a racist you had to have power. That's bullshit. If you judge a person by the color of their skin first and foremost, you are a racist, Q E D. Oppressed or oppressor, it makes no difference. Stereotypical thinking is stereotypical thinking and it sticks in my craw no matter who is doing it. That's why I have so many here on Ignore!

I think there are those who still hold that position. I think this is slightly different. It's not saying it isn't racist for a minority to hate someone outside their race. The difference comes in whether it really has the same significance.

I've argued it in my latest paper. I did not take the position that I know my sociology professor holds. We'll see.

But just because I agree that racism is racism no matter who or how it's manifest, I'm not so sure I would agree that it's exactly the same. Or rather, that the social ramifications are equal.

 

[TE999]

The coin of racisim has been so devalued from it's initial meaning it's practically worthless. Racisim has been used as a bludgeon by ideologues trying to extort money from cities, corporations and the government. They could care less if folks are discriminated against as long as they get their cut, then they're off to the next boycott, picket line, demonstration, et al.

Racisim has also been used as an excuse for failure, indolence and irresponsibility. There's plenty of racial discrimination to go around, but not every act that causes offence is automatically racisim...some people are just loud, rude and crude.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I think there are those who still hold that position. I think this is slightly different. It's not saying it isn't racist for a minority to hate someone outside their race. The difference comes in whether it really has the same significance.

I've argued it in my latest paper. I did not take the position that I know my sociology professor holds. We'll see.

But just because I agree that racism is racism no matter who or how it's manifest, I'm not so sure I would agree that it's exactly the same. Or rather, that the social ramifications are equal.

No argument there. Or sexism, either. I know full well that the tall, blue-eyed white guy is still the authority figure whether it's fair, justified, or even reasonable. Of course it isn't. That doesn't prevent me from taking advantage whenever I feel it necessary. I do try to be the good guy, fighting for Truth, Justice, etc. but even a bear is only human.

 

[lisa123414]

We talk about the social ramifications, and yes those are important as they affect how we all live, that is, the social norms end up laws. But let’s get down to the personal ramifications. If I as a minority, manifest hatred toward some group, say bisexual Japanese females (please don’t ask me why I chose this group, Freud would probably have a field day) and my reason was that they steal all my bisexual boyfriends, or perhaps I have some other justification, it matters not, because my hatred is personal and unreasonable.

Sociologists put people into groups, perhaps they are the most sexist racist folks . We can focus on the effects on people as a group, but I tend to agree with Jack, the young folks who try to be Nazis are troubled people, who look for the attention that hatred generates. Attention to the individual is paramount. Why is this child so full of angst, what will calm his soul, what will make him(her) settle into a love of our species?

I guess the whole reason I began this response was to point out that we are speaking of individuals, and not groups. We can look at the group all we want, but our salvation will begin with attention to the individual.

peace,
Lisa

 

[voluptuary_manque]

But of course. We know that but try telling them! IMO, one is a bigot from the deep-seated fear that "those people" might somehow be better than you and when you're down in the gutter you look for anyone you can look farther down on to boost you feeble self-image. People who are mean to others are so miserable themselves that they want company. They get it by making others as miserable as they are. That doesn't prevent them from being murderous thugs!

 

[driphoney]

The coin of racisim has been so devalued from it's initial meaning it's practically worthless. Racisim has been used as a bludgeon by ideologues trying to extort money from cities, corporations and the government. They could care less if folks are discriminated against as long as they get their cut, then they're off to the next boycott, picket line, demonstration, et al.

Racisim has also been used as an excuse for failure, indolence and irresponsibility. There's plenty of racial discrimination to go around, but not every act that causes offence is automatically racisim...some people are just loud, rude and crude.

If the coin of racism is devalued, does that mean racism has less value? Do you believe it doesn't exist? Or that the real social issue of racism is buried under injustices to non-racist social structures?

How do Americans insure that those who are discriminated against get or feel acceptance by the dominant culture? If there is plenty of racial discrimination to go around, can that be a factor in the excuses for failure, indolence and irresponsibility? Is it possible that, if a person is told through overt and subversive messages that failure is expected, failure, indolence and irresponsibility might be a potential outcome? Will the percentages of these negative outcomes be greater or lesser?

In my high school in Southeastern Ohio, 10% or less of the student body went on to some form of higher education. We were a predominantly white school. Our teachers were primarily from Cleveland, which was 3 hours and another world away. Our teachers often enjoyed their roles as liberal servants attending the poor and needy down in Appalachia. Think missionary here. These teachers, by the way, would not even live in this school district in which they taught. Expectations were low. I remember one sweet teacher explaining to me how one entire freshman English class of hers could not grasp how to write a paragraph. She never questioned her ability to actually teach, her pedagogy. She didn't have to. It was the students, bless their hearts, fault. They couldn't learn.

Were these rural, less-advantaged white kids really incapable of writing? Were only 10% of these kids mentally capable of college work? Was there something genetically wrong with them? Maybe Scotch-Irish blood is somehow inferior to other Northern European blood? Of course not. But the messages we got in many ways reinforced a "can't do" attitude.

Do we whites, often without malice, just like sweet Mrs. M., more or less do the same thing?

Are we all rugged individualists? Do we completely control our own destiny? Or do we sometimes carry baggage that's been loaded on us? Whose fault is this baggage? The one carrying it?

 

[driphoney]

We talk about the social ramifications, and yes those are important as they affect how we all live, that is, the social norms end up laws. But let’s get down to the personal ramifications. If I as a minority, manifest hatred toward some group, say bisexual Japanese females (please don’t ask me why I chose this group, Freud would probably have a field day) and my reason was that they steal all my bisexual boyfriends, or perhaps I have some other justification, it matters not, because my hatred is personal and unreasonable.

Sociologists put people into groups, perhaps they are the most sexist racist folks . We can focus on the effects on people as a group, but I tend to agree with Jack, the young folks who try to be Nazis are troubled people, who look for the attention that hatred generates. Attention to the individual is paramount. Why is this child so full of angst, what will calm his soul, what will make him(her) settle into a love of our species?

I guess the whole reason I began this response was to point out that we are speaking of individuals, and not groups. We can look at the group all we want, but our salvation will begin with attention to the individual.

peace,
Lisa

But of course. We know that but try telling them! IMO, one is a bigot from the deep-seated fear that "those people" might somehow be better than you and when you're down in the gutter you look for anyone you can look farther down on to boost you feeble self-image. People who are mean to others are so miserable themselves that they want company. They get it by making others as miserable as they are. That doesn't prevent them from being murderous thugs!

It's all individualistic? There is no such thing as "group-think"?

The thinking of the Nazi youth is messed up and he/she needs not to be given up on. But does that mean attention to broader cultural trends, patterns and attempting to understand of how these might create or sustain a Nazi sub-culture is not worthy of pursuit? Or that it doesn't tell us something about ourselves culturally?

I can't help but remember that an entire nation bought into the Nazi mentality. They didn't all participate or condone or even, in many cases, have knowledge of everything the regime did, but they certainly bought into the major themes of the movement. In the end, they also moved beyond it, at least to a certain extent. They were not all, as a nation, mentally disturbed.