The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[intothewoods]

An evolutionary history of pair-bonding within the human species isn't an opinion. It is demonstrable fact (altricial offspring as opposed to precocious).

In all of the most primitive tribes studied pair-bonding is the norm.

The opinion I'm referring to isn't the history of pair-bonding. It's the leap from the existence of pair-bonding to your belief in the moral superiority of closed relationships. We can't say what love is for all people.

 

[Netzach]

But so is polygamy. The vast majority of so-called primitive cultures have been polygamous.

 

[Netzach]

Frankly there is not a lot of time for necking when you have to track down and shoot a giraffe. A lot of wives and husbands spend very single-sex oriented lives.

 

[00Syd]

There are also some GLBT people who are so repulsed by the institution of heterosexual marriage and what it has done to heterosexual people's lives that they question why any GLBT people would want to replicate it. A small minority, but I don't think their point is insane.

That's my (very liberal-minded gay) dad's opinion on the matter.

 

[intothewoods]

Oh dear. Hitler has been mentioned. Does that mean the thread has run its course?

 

[BLoved]

The opinion I'm referring to isn't the history of pair-bonding. It's the leap from the existence of pair-bonding to your belief in the moral superiority of closed relationships. We can't say what love is for all people.

I think we all understand "No Strings Attached" pretty well.

And I am not arguing "moral superiority".

I am arguing that denying the link between intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding leads to dysfunctional behaviour and attitudes.

We're wired to link the two. Ignoring this is to ignore our humanity.

If not for this link, there would be no human species.

 

[CutieMouse]

I think we all understand "No Strings Attached" pretty well.

And I am not arguing "moral superiority".

I am arguing that denying the link between intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding leads to dysfunctional behaviour and attitudes.

We're wired to link the two. Ignoring this is to ignore our humanity.

If not for this link, there would be no human species.

Yet any time anyone has presented a caring, respectful, commincative, nurturing relationship without using the words "True Love" or claiming devotion to said relationship until one or both parties die, you have invalidated said relationship and labeled it abusive.

People are not ignoring that emotional bonding occurs... I made an entire post about oxytocin (the nurturing/bonding hormone which has been researched extensively), but because those posts are not lick step with your definition of 1+1=fir life, you find ways to discount, insult, or flat out ignore the post.

 

[Netzach]

we're designed to eat raw meat too, but we figured out that, kibbeh and tataki notwithstanding, we don't HAVE to.

 

[BLoved]

But so is polygamy. The vast majority of so-called primitive cultures have been polygamous.

Polygamy is a response to a society's need to increase its population.

Either there are too few men to go around (the result of war or disaster), or the surplus men have been recruited into armies (semi-organized rape-gangs until very recent times, and there are many examples even in modern times).

The two best examples of this I can think of are Islam and early Judaism. In both cases we are looking at small 'tribes' (societies based on religious beliefs) seeking to improve their chances of survival by rapidly building up the population. Polygamy absorbs all surplus women and gradually produces an 'army' of surplus males.

Actually, the Old Testament is a goldmine of information on how a tribe faced a wide variety of pressures (internal and external) through their reproductive strategy.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Biochemistry does not explain why one man throws himself on a hand grenade while another man runs.

Dysfunctional behaviour resulting from abusive experiences is not based on biochemistry.

Actually yeah, biochemistry is fundamental to behavior choices.

And since I see that you are trying to explain the many varied forms of human bonding solely from procreative viewpoints I beg you to remember;

A little learning is a dangerous thing.

As in; you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[BLoved]

People are not ignoring that emotional bonding occurs...

"No Strings Attached"

"One Night Stands"

"Casual 'bdsm'"

Oya, lots of people are ignoring that emotional bonding occurs.

 

[BLoved]

Actually yeah, biochemistry is fundamental to behavior choices.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to your religion.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"No Strings Attached"

"One Night Stands"

"Casual 'bdsm'"

Oya, lots of people are ignoring that emotional bonding occurs.

It doesn't have to occur for more than one night. Not every emotional bond has to last forever and ever-- in fact you would be forced to share your beloved with a lot of random people she'd simply passed on the street, if that were so.

 

[Netzach]

I'm so confused. Either 8000 years of culture matter or they don't.

I'm going with "they matter."

If you want to talk as if they don't we're thinly furred bonobos. We like to fuck, often, we don't go into estrus and we fuck for gratification.

 

[Netzach]

Only culturated humans could dream up something as neurotic as romantic love to screw up something like fucking.

 

[BLoved]

Actually yeah, biochemistry is fundamental to behavior choices.

And since I see that you are trying to explain the many varied forms of human bonding solely from procreative viewpoints I beg you to remember;

A little learning is a dangerous thing.

As in; you don't know what you're talking about.

Anyone who fails to reproduce successfully fails to transmit his or her genes to future generations.

We are the inheritors of those who produced offspring who produced offspring who produced ...

30,000 years of it. One thousand generations.

And I'm not counting those species who gave rise to humanity.

Human bonding wasn't a whim ... it was a necessity if humans were to produce big-brained offspring who could survive to adulthood.

 

[BLoved]

It doesn't have to occur for more than one night. Not every emotional bond has to last forever and ever-- in fact you would be forced to share your beloved with a lot of random people she'd simply passed on the street, if that were so.

Having trouble keeping up?

We've been talking about intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding.

Through 1,000 generations of successful human reproduction the link between the two have ensured that females with offspring weren't left unprotected or unprovided.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Once humans evolved culture, biological evolution pretty much stopped being an impetus for change. Instead of changing to fit our environment, we changed our environment to suit ourselves. This process began about 50,000 years ago, when hominins began to walk upright. Our pelvic construction became narrower and longer, and our heads became bigger and parturition became dangerous. Females could no longer step away from the tribe and drop a baby-- they needed a helper. And guess who the helpers were? Other females, older and more experienced.

Love, according to this model, did NOT begin with male-female pairing, kids, it began with mother-daughter pairing.

 

[BLoved]

I'm so confused. Either 8000 years of culture matter or they don't.

I'm going with "they matter."

If you want to talk as if they don't we're thinly furred bonobos. We like to fuck, often, we don't go into estrus and we fuck for gratification.

Except we're not bonobos.

Our offspring can't cling to our fur and ride piggy-back while Mom hunts fruit in the trees.

On the other hand, bonobos do demonstrate a link between intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding, unlike those seeking "no strings attached", "one night stands", "casual 'bdsm'", ...

 

[Netzach]

And I'm saying *blood* and *familial* bonds are more important in that setup. A man married because her dad and brothers were going to kick his ass if he didn't. A woman's children were cared for because the women hung together. The interactions between the parents of offspring are usually more limited, children in a lot of again so called "primitive" cultures have very little dad face-time, and mom just as little.

 

[Stella_Omega]

bonobos do demonstrate a link between intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding, unlike those seeking "no strings attached", "one night stands", "casual 'bdsm'", ...

Dude, you really need to learn more about the subject. Bonobos are famous for casual recreational sex.

C.F. Jan De Waal.

 

[Netzach]

Except we're not bonobos.

Our offspring can't cling to our fur and ride piggy-back while Mom hunts fruit in the trees.

On the other hand, bonobos do demonstrate a link between intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding, unlike those seeking "no strings attached", "one night stands", "casual 'bdsm'", ...

I have no idea what you're reading. Bonobos are notorious for having sex for social lubrication with many different partners, for pleasure. Like grooming.

 

[Etoile]

Oh dear. Hitler has been mentioned. Does that mean the thread has run its course?

It should, but Godwin's Law never stopped a discussion from continuing!

 

[CutieMouse]

"No Strings Attached"

"One Night Stands"

"Casual 'bdsm'"

Oya, lots of people are ignoring that emotional bonding occurs.

My point is that you lump my current relationship in with "one night stands" because I can't say I will be with The Man until I die - even though there is a great deal of emotional bonding involved. Unlike you, I don't feel like making that decision in the space of 2-3 months is wise; therefore, we are focusing on the now, rather than decide to spend another 20+ years together.

In fact, several people have explained successful year + long relationships, which are not "casual", are obviously not "one night stands", and have at least sone strings (contract/etc) involved... Yet you have refused to acknowledge them as valid, either.

So, you might not think your attitude spews moral superiority left and right, but the whole "true love"/your relationship is blahblahblah stuff, is.

 

[Stella_Omega]

...we are focusing on the now, rather than decide to spend another 20+ years together....

This is how my SO and I have lasted mostly pretty happily, for thirty three years.