Book-burning, BDSM and the "One True (Casual) Way"

[Seurat]

I'm a bit confused, having not been a participant in all the other threads posted on this subject. Two things not really connected to the original topic, but pointed out to my little brain in your post stick out:

I'd rather not start up a thread where the primary focus will be the slinging of mud in my direction.

As it was your idea, I think it only fitting you start the thread.

Then

Reference BLoved's writings for the anti-"casual BDSM" view -

Casual BDSM and Emotional Abuse

... and his other writings for the "True Love" view -

Love and Respect

So... debate away my dears... debate away.

Then BLoved again:

I won't post my views of the opinions expressed here, and am off to work out before going into the shop, but I for one would be willing to discuss "casual BDSM/predators/True Love/etc" in a separate thread. And by separate thread I do not mean a posting of links of BL's writings. I mean a discussion."

This, along with the other quotes and referenced threads, sounds to me like this:
CM offered a debate, and asked for you to post. You said no, but told CM to start the thread. Which happened.

You then accused CM of starting the thread simply to start a flame war, and said you wouldn't participate in that thread because you felt that a flame war was exactly what it ad become.

So then, why not start a thread stating your position/ intent, state your supports, and ask for rebuttal?


When I look at your story vote listing, I don't see it quite as extreme as you seem to state.

Between you first and seonc list, two people voted on your first story, with a combined total point rate of 4. Lets say it was a 3 and a 1 (I'sll show why in a minute. Between the second and third listing, another 1 vote was added. So, in all, three people voted; one as mediocre, and two as poor. They didn't like your writing.

Part one had a total of two people vote, and both were ones.
Having been through this, it looks like you have one person who thought the first story listed was fair, and two people that don't like your writing.

Considering how long it actually takes to read all of the above, how likely is it anyone actually read the material they just down-rated in the last 30 minutes?

Since I can no longer see how long these stories actually were, I can't tell how long it would take me to read them. I do know that in the average 'eight hour' day, I spend an hour eating, about two hours doing misc. crap, three hours writing, and the other two reading between twenty and forty pages worth of downloaded literotica material. The stuff I really like or really don't like I note, and then when I am on a computer with a connection, I go back and coment/rate.

~smiles again~ just saying.

Parts 2, 3, Quest, and Little each have a single vote added in the period between your first and third screen captures and while, yes, they were 'one's, I don't honestly think it could be considered "vote rigging".

I'll be submitting delete requests for all of my material, given the degree of vote-rigging by the casual community and the effect a low rating has on material being read.

If you think a single person giving your stories a low rating is considerd 'vote rigging', that is your decision. I've gotten good ratings and bad for my stories; but I know that if I want to have special attention (the big red 'H') drawn to my stories, they have to have a 4.5 or above. Since none of yours had that rating before the supposed vote rigging, I don't see how it really affects your stories. When listed by 'total average score' on the search page, most categories require a 4.7 or above just to make it onto the top ten pages. You are better off utilizing accurate and descriptive keywords to catch the eye of the casual reader than to hope your rating will do the job for you.

And if a single person voting on your stories is enough to make you think there is some tye of conspiracy to make your stories go unread, then tell me: how many people will be reading your stories now that you have removed them?

Sort of seems like you feel your lit candle isn't attracting enough moths, so you blow out the flame. I think there could be an axiom about a nose and a face here, but for the life of me it is just slipping away from me.

~smiles~

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

~frowny face~

I think that sums up his points best.

 

[Etoile]

Somebody has way too much time on their hands.

 

[Primalex]

You know my favorite part of this whole story?

It all started in a thread called "Weakness."

No, it didn't. It started with "Five recent BDSM contributions". But he didn't get enough attention there. So your attempt to construct some deep insight failed.

But I'll tell you when it might be getting funny - when he becomes head of your local CPS and starts to bring all those children of disgusting, immoral parents to safety, so that the children can learn true love in a new, proper environment. Think about this when you encourage fanatics.

I think we really need much more people like Mr. Stob:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/No+children+of+"immoral"+parents-a0140054536

 

[CutieMouse]

Now back to CM's most recent post in this thread:

With nearly 6000 posts under her belt, I am sure it is obvious CM knew exactly what the consequences would be for starting the thread the way she did, which is not the way she proposed the idea to me.

I expected the "consequences" to be a discussion. I was wrong.

It should also be abundantly obvious why she wanted me to start the thread, despite the fact she was the one proposing the discussion and despite the obvious character assassination that others were prosecuting against me.

I thought the subject potentially interesting, and that you might be interested in defending your views. I was wrong.

My own response to her suggestion that I start the discussion shows that I knew what to expect.

So here we are, with CM in full denial while continuing the character assassination by suggesting I am a coward.

Actually, coward was probably a bit strong... no, I still stand behind that one.

But I will add slightly paranoid to it... because BL, can you not see that you predetermined the reaction you would get and therefore read that tone into every response?

She ignores the fact that a writer without the ratings to stay on the top list is but one of thousands in the general list, waiting for the one or two readers who randomly select a story rather than choosing a top-rated story from the top list.

Not that she wouldn't know this, but refusing to acknowledge the situation as it is demonstrates her intent.

Actually, I don't hang out on the erotica side of the site at all, am not an author myself, and have zero clue how all that stuff works. I thought your views were interesting enough (although IMO flawed) to discuss, and the first two articles I linked in the other thread are the first things I've read on the erotica side of the site in about 2-3 years.

I've already stated my views on down-rating a story simply because one disagrees with the message.

As is obvious in her OP in Debating a Few Philosophies of BDSM - Love, Kink, Lust, Etc she placed no burden upon the casual community to defend its lack of ethics. The sole purpose of the 'discussion' was to attack me.

No, the sole purpose was to have a discussion. You are starting from a viewpoint that anyone who doesn't do it your way (love=BDSM) is unethical. I've been in love based BDSM relationships that were horrifically mentally abusive. I for one consider it to be unethical to abuse someone, but since the man loved me (and for a while I him), I guess to you that was an ethical relationship? My current relationship is not love based, but it is respect based... best relationship I've ever had, actually. But according to your views, it is unethical. Why?

A mob of casual players willing to invent any factoid so as to gain say anything I said.

Do you even pay attention? Is your world such such that anyone who doesn't have the same experience as you with the BDSM "Community" is lying? Are you really that omnipotent?

Meanwhile the less mature individuals were encouraged to down-rate anything I wrote on sight because, as CM puts it:

"... I freely admit whenever someone tosses out a BDSM = Love / Love = BDSM (capital "L") blahblahblah argument I get irritated. Actually I get pissed off. ... This was CM seeing a lot of misinformation being thrown around, and wanting to either understand how there might be some grain of truth buried in there, or dispel some flat out (IMO) dangerous bullshit. Or throw the cold clean light of day on all of it so people can decide for themselves what reality is." (I added in the quote for clarity)

Obviously such a dangerous, threatening individual such as myself deserves to be down-rated as an act of 'conscience'.

Where exactly did I encourage anyone to down-rate your writings? "Throw the cold clean light of day" = have a conversation in the thread. Try to understand where each other is coming from and present both sides so anyone who might read it can decide what parts they do or don't agree with.

So how sincere can we believe her to be when she says:

"I am terribly sorry to hear you have deleted your writings. "

I am sorry to hear you did that. IMO Every point of view should be represented, even the unpopular ones. I am sure there are things in your writings that will resonate with someone out there - even if it isn't in the way you'd intended. There are people out there reading my arguments and thinking I am an absolute 'effing idiot. I am positive of it. Oh well.

By way of evidence I offer the following quotes from Eastern Guru, which followed my announcement of my intent to delete my writings:

EG agrees with some of your points. I am glad your writings helped her see things from a different perspective. (Even recognizing you might not consider that to be a sincere statement.)

So yes, I consider CM a book burner, along with all those who contributed to her flame-fest, as well as those who sat by and did nothing and those who sought acceptance from those who engaged in verbal abuse.

As the only public advocate of a love-based bdsm, vote-rigging has ensured no one would read my material, and thus I was effectively censored by CM and her friends.

And you somehow managed to selectively ignore the posts where I disagreed with down-grading your writings, and commented that because this is a Free Speech site I respect and support your right to say whatever you wish.

And so we end up with a forum where there is no advocate for a love-based bdsm.

Only those who advocate casual 'bdsm' are welcome here. No one who opposes it spoke up, nor will they without suffering a similar fate to mine.

The crazy funny thing about this argument is that I don't do "casual" BDSM. I don't attend munches (I consider them to be meat markets and have very little in common with the average attendee), I have never (and will never) "play publicly", and I only do kink within the confines of a committed (although not necessarily love based) relationship. I've also spent a lot of time over the years participating in threads that encourage submissives (and dominants) to take steps to stay safe, use their intuition, guard their emotions, avoid risky one night stands, etc. So in a way, we're on the same side here... I just happen to also acknowledge that lots of bad stuff happens in "love" relationships, as well and therefore don't belive Love to be much protection from abuse.. ironic, eh?

The casual community's "vehemence" will continue to intimidate writers, whose works are just as vulnerable to vote-rigging as mine. It would be a rare mature, intelligent individual who could articulate his/her point of view who would step forward and subject themselves to the immature attacks of a mob.

And for that they will be called "coward", "troll", "predator" and many other delightful names as the casual community invents one factoid after another to fool the novices.

Okay, so here's my thing - why is this whole "ratings" thing such a big deal? If the information is that important, that imperative, why does the rating matter? If a low rate drops the article down in the list, but it still exists, it will still be read by people seeking the information, right? so your views are still being heard, still educating the masses, still doing good, still working as a catalyst for change. So why delete them? Ego?

And the novices won't have a clue there is any other way of engaging in bdsm without the casual community ...

And the novices will never learn why casual 'bdsm' should be avoided, until they've been sufficiently abused to learn for themselves.

Or maybe they do what I did. Stand up. Do you know how I learned about BDSM? I read the forums. I asked questions, I attended a munch or two (years ago) but declined the invitation to the play party after, I went to the Southeast Plains Leatherfest weekend (tried on my first corset!) and sat in on lectures that were important to me (and declined to attend the public play parties), I read books and books and books. I worked on me. I practices the things I'd learned in therapy to be a whole, stable, intuitive, complete, happy person.

And after a year or so of that, I met a wonderful man (long distance, through Lit actually) who had decades of "experience" in BDSM. Helped found TES in New York in the 70s, brilliant person... He spoke of BDSM and Love much in the same way you do. He gave all the same arguments you do about "casual BDSM". He also discouraged me from seeking information from anywhere else, because the "casual" people were just out to use me. There were always why I shouldn't ask questions, or attend a seminar or much, or why very sound logical advice from other sources was wrong and he was right. And it ended up being a terribly mentally abusive relationship that almost caused me to give up on submission. Which meant giving up on me.

Your views are full of wonderful, sweet, idealistic ideas. But the "casual BDSM community" is no more or less automatically abusive than anything else in the world. And "Loving BDSM" is no better.

If there is a coward here, it is CM and her crew who cannot abide an opposing point of view to the point they must act as bullies in the playground picking on one kid they know they can beat up with impunity.

I had no idea I was so powerful.

And those are the people whom Eastern Guru seeks to befriend.

There is no shame in acknowledging a hopeless situation and choosing another path which provides more of a chance to make a difference.

As a writer with some skill I am never without that hope.

So put your writings back up. Don't deny yourself a chance to make a difference.

To those of you who are novices and have yet to be abused by the casual community, keep in mind who you have to thank for keeping you from reading any point of view not sanctioned by the casual community: CM and her friends and all those like her who populate this forum and every 'bdsm' online forum.

There is another way ... Love.

And good luck ... the more you hang around people like this, the more you're going to need it.

Again with the hyperbole.

 

[Primalex]

http://mitheral.ca/images/Polaroid/kitten_die.jpg

 

[Etoile]

A lot of these posts are really long and the conversation is across multiple thread. Can somebody summarize for me what the hell is going on?

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

[URL=http://www.gifsoup.com/view/183492/train-wreck.html]http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=183492 GIFSoup[/URL]

And yet, I cannot look away.

 

[sb2009]

I'm confused here.

BLoved posted that the casual scene is a dangerous place and that subs are preyed upon and abused, and people are only looking for quick sex (nothing wrong with quick sex IMO). (which i'm sure does happen. just like people get preyed upon and abused in any manner of interactions with other people.) Some people posted that in the casual bdsm scene they participate in, they don't see that happening, and that they also are a part of a commited couple or know commited couples who are in the scene, so it's not all about the quick fuck.

There was a lot of talk about abuse and research. When it was disclosed that the reserach is based on one munch and interviews with subs who have been abused, there were points made about how such research isn't reflective of the entire BDSM scene.

Did I miss something? Who burned books? If Bloved deleted his stories, didn't he in fact burn his own books?

 

[chy_girl]

A lot of these posts are really long and the conversation is across multiple thread. Can somebody summarize for me what the hell is going on?

It's all our fault that Bloved chose to delete his writings. And we're all big, fat meanie pants for having a low bull shit gauge.

 

[where]

You know my favorite part of this whole story?

It all started in a thread called "Weakness."

It only seems right that all our weaknesses would be laid on the carpet, eh?

(I think it's important not to lose sight of everyone's strengths in the process.)

presumably a lot of 'weaknesses' that people into BDSM have are also shared by people who aren't into it. One thing, I have never ever read of a crime report where a woman was murdered and there was a mention of her being involved in a BDSM relationship. I'm sure it's happened, but it would seem to be quite rare.

One thing that has struck me from reading the stories of a lot of plys on here, is that in past times they have been badly abused which has perhaps attracted them, for whatever reasons, to a dominant. I also know lots of 'vanilla' women who have been abused in the past and ended up in violent relationships time and time again, often getting hospitalised. Similar kinds of women but one ends up with a dominant who ~knows~ they are a dominant and takes the role seriously and has some self control. The other ends up with a weak and fucked up man (or woman, I guess) whose only outlet for his self loathing is to pulverise someone weaker.

I think the fucked up and abused woman is probably safer with a dominant in a formalised M/s D/s relationship, than in a vanilla one. Of course I could be way off and my knowledge of the 'scene' is just limited to my interactions with someone I love, who just happens to be a dominant.

 

[sb2009]

kybele, my thoughts pretty much mirror your own on that subject. My first marriage as a really young woman from a fucked up family background was to a strong willed man, but instead of being a PYL type he was more of a "mentally and pysically break my wife type." I realized after some personal growth that there was a reason I was attracted to that type of man. If I hadn't married him at 19, it would have most likely been someone else of the same type. Even my friendships were with assholes LOL

After growing up and learning about myself and therapy, my second choice of a husband is a pretty dominant man, but he's not a "break your wife" kind of man. So we are happy and have fun and he is the man I trusted to have children with (a big thing for me. The ex controlled a lot of me, but I always made sure the use birthcontrol because I would.not.breed.with.that.man).

So while I'm by far from "all better" I'm in a supportive relationship where some of my weaknesses are actually strenghts for our marriage.

 

[where]

kybele, my thoughts pretty much mirror your own on that subject. My first marriage as a really young woman from a fucked up family background was to a strong willed man, but instead of being a PYL type he was more of a "mentally and pysically break my wife type." I realized after some personal growth that there was a reason I was attracted to that type of man. If I hadn't married him at 19, it would have most likely been someone else of the same type. Even my friendships were with assholes LOL

After growing up and learning about myself and therapy, my second choice of a husband is a pretty dominant man, but he's not a "break your wife" kind of man. So we are happy and have fun and he is the man I trusted to have children with (a big thing for me. The ex controlled a lot of me, but I always made sure the use birthcontrol because I would.not.breed.with.that.man).

So while I'm by far from "all better" I'm in a supportive relationship where some of my weaknesses are actually strenghts for our marriage.

good to know I was kind of in the general area. It's just a theory of course. No research to support it. I bet it would make a great PhD.

 

[Etoile]

So wait though...who is BLoved and why does anybody give a fuck? I mean, PrincessGoddess was fun to toy with, but is anybody actually having fun with BLoved? And if not, why stress over it? Sure, discussing BDSM is what we're all about here, but making sense and having fair discussions is part of that. Throwing a temper tantrum is not. So...who cares?

 

[chy_girl]

So wait though...who is BLoved and why does anybody give a fuck? I mean, PrincessGoddess was fun to toy with, but is anybody actually having fun with BLoved? And if not, why stress over it? Sure, discussing BDSM is what we're all about here, but making sense and having fair discussions is part of that. Throwing a temper tantrum is not. So...who cares?

I think DGE has it about spot on:

[URL=http://www.gifsoup.com/view/183492/train-wreck.html]http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=183492 GIFSoup[/URL]

And yet, I cannot look away.

 

[graceanne]

From Weakness

And good luck ... the more you hang around people like this, the more you're going to need it.

Dude, you seriously don't have enough to do with your time. I mean

Did anyone read all that? Cause I got bored after the first link.

And before I post my do not feed the trolls sign, I gotta ask, did you see the picture I made for you?

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h284/graceanne1978/17a8d14f4-1.jpg

Now that I'm done:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h284/graceanne1978/Do-not-feed-the-troll-2.png

 

[graceanne]

So wait though...who is BLoved and why does anybody give a fuck? I mean, PrincessGoddess was fun to toy with, but is anybody actually having fun with BLoved? And if not, why stress over it? Sure, discussing BDSM is what we're all about here, but making sense and having fair discussions is part of that. Throwing a temper tantrum is not. So...who cares?

Not to mention bloved is BORING.

 

[graceanne]

A lot of these posts are really long and the conversation is across multiple thread. Can somebody summarize for me what the hell is going on?

I'm not sure, myself. bloved is not worth my time to catch up on.

Typical, imagination-less troll. *sigh*

 

[Etoile]

How ya doin gracie? I'm stuck at the Detroit airport, myself. Not in the same way Primalex is stuck...not stranded. I'm just stuck here because my flight home is delayed. Boooooo.

 

[00Syd]

Oooooooh boy. I go away for one weekend...

 

[sb2009]

that cat is totally scary!

 

[Etoile]

I agree. Cats' eyes should NOT look like that!

 

[graceanne]

How ya doin gracie? I'm stuck at the Detroit airport, myself. Not in the same way Primalex is stuck...not stranded. I'm just stuck here because my flight home is delayed. Boooooo.

\

Sorry I missed this. I'm good. K's home. Sorry you're stuck in Detroit, though.

I agree. Cats' eyes should NOT look like that!

 

[Homburg]

...

Four letters and a piece of punctuation that have never been more appropriate: tl;dr

This.

--

One thing that has struck me from reading the stories of a lot of plys on here, is that in past times they have been badly abused which has perhaps attracted them, for whatever reasons, to a dominant.

My take on this, and this is from being in relationships with more than one woman who'd been abused in a previous relationship, is that it is kind of the other way around. It is not the former abuse that causes them to be attracted to a dominant partner. It is their own internal make-up that caused them to be attracted to a potential abuser in the first place.

The various psychological traits that make a person "submissive" causes them to be attracted to dominant people. A person who is not aware enough to know the difference can easily mistake an abusive type for a dominant one. This is not uncommon at all. Later, perhaps they hear about BDSM. They look into it and realise that a dominant partner is what they are looking for, and that is what they head towards.

I've seen it in my own partners, in submissive friends, in people I've met, and many times in the life stories shared here. I'm not saying it is conclusive by any stretch, but am offering it as a possible pattern that I've noticed.

 

[BLoved]

You are starting from a viewpoint that anyone who doesn't do it your way (love=BDSM) is unethical. I've been in love based BDSM relationships that were horrifically mentally abusive. I for one consider it to be unethical to abuse someone, but since the man loved me (and for a while I him), I guess to you that was an ethical relationship? My current relationship is not love based, but it is respect based... best relationship I've ever had, actually. But according to your views, it is unethical. Why?

You were in an abusive relationship and called it "love", and now you are in an abusive relationship and call it "respect".

Ever consider that the problem is within you and your choice of labels.

Love is not abusive, though many abusers abuse others and call it "love".

There is no respect without love, though many abusers abuse and call it "respect".

Love and respect are not labels, they are a way of life. They are built upon a foundation of ethics that recognizes the value of another being equal to one's own value.

You and your friends abuse others because none of you are mature enough to value another as you value yourselves. That is because none of you have experienced true love such that you might learn a more mature pattern of behaviour. You abuse yourselves through your cruelty towards others because none of you were loved enough to value yourselves more highly such that you would not choose to abuse others, and thus yourselves as well.

You are all locked into cycles of self-destruction and in your loneliness and despair you seek to victimize others, because anyone knowing true love and real joy arouses your jealousy and sense of self-loathing. You sense you've given up on yourselves and others and will never be whole, complete.

Without a foundation of ethics that would provide you with a clear understanding of what love and respect look like, without a foundation such that you are inspired to commit yourselves to the principles of love regardless of adversity none of you will be whole, complete.

You will always remain bullies in the schoolyard looking for victims to prey upon.

Which is why you are here.

You behave as if there never was a monogamous person who chose bdsm. You behave as if the ethics of monogamy were a joke, that there is no one who could be committed to such principles, no one who would reject the lack of ethics of the one-night stand and all the other forms of abuse you call casual 'bdsm'.

You reveal your fanatic need to reassure yourselves there is no such thing as love by your intolerance for what is obvious to any reasonable person: that there are reasonable and intelligent people who will always reject your lack of ethics as demonstrated through your love-less 'relationships'.

That there will always be people who will condemn the lack of ethics involved in a one-night stand.

Your inability to tolerate an opposing point of view, founded on your need to convince yourselves love is a joke and monogamy a lie, renders you and this board incapable of discussing anything opposed to your cycle of self-destruction.

Which oif us is the "coward"? The one who stands up for love when all around him condemn it, or those who run from love because it would require them to face their demons and end their cycles of self-destruction?

You claim to be victims of love because you insist on mis-labelling abuse.

Love abuses no one and abuse is the sure sign there is no love.

Without love there is no respect.

Without love "BDSM" is just another acronym for abuse.

I just happen to also acknowledge that lots of bad stuff happens in "love" relationships, as well and therefore don't belive Love to be much protection from abuse.. ironic, eh?

You were abused by someone who said he "loves" you and rather than condemn the liar, you condemn Love.

In what way is Love responsible for all the liars who have claimed to feel it so as to lure yet another victim into the dungeon?

You supress my efforts to educate others in the way of Love and so leave the door open for more liars to lure more victims into the dungeon.

And so you are free to pursue your cycle of self-destruction, while encouraging others to do join you in your self-imposed love-less hell where one must "guard their emotions".

You've made Love your enemy rather than deceit and ignorance.

Barnacles and Butterflies

Romance: Love, especially romantic love idealized for its purity. A spirit of or inclination for adventure and mystery ...

Romantic: Evoking and/or given to thoughts and feelings of love, especially idealized love. A person who is idealistic, amorous, and/or soulful ...

It is the story of our age that amongst all those seeking personal gain and/or lustful encounters so few pursue Romance.

It is said Idealism is a luxury only the young can afford, but at 53 I have yet to find anything more precious or worthy of respect.

Perhaps they say this because as you get older, you accumulate bad experiences like barnacles on a ship.

But unlike ships, most people never scrape off the barnacles.

Indeed, some wear them with pride, flaunting their cynicism as if conquering Idealism is some noble accomplishment.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is like tearing the wings off a butterfly and watching the poor creature crawl where once it knew the freedom of the skies.

In a world of barnacles and flight-less butterflies is it any wonder people are dissatisfied with what they have? Any wonder they no longer believe in the beauty and majesty of Love?