Debating a Few Philosophies of BDSM - Love, Kink, Lust, Etc

[eastern sun]

I'm not entirely sure how one is supposed to have a substantive debate with someone who came in and decided that anyone who doesn't agree with them is immature and worthy of sighing tolerance because they're so brilliant and enlightened.

I'm not entirely sure how someone is supposed to debate someone with fixed ideas about something they clearly have no aggregate experience with based on your experience with it - when they have expressed total unwillingness to consider the validity of anyone's thoughts with more experience.

I'm not entirely sure how someone is supposed to have a rational discussion with someone who has assigned them a place in a bogeyman subculture.

There are more of us here - but shift context one tiny bit and we're not the majority in ANY stretch of the imagination and BLoved is, with his full on persecution complex as response. A lot of people like him. They've decided what sex is for and everything that doesn't look like it is bad. I don't have to fabricate this, if I don't accept it as reality my rights and life and safety are in question.

I'm not here to make that point of view comfortable and I hope other people aren't either. I don't care if you think that I'm a psychotic hedonist who needs help, but if you think I'm going to pat your head and say "wow that's great" and not defend myself you're insane. The only reason we're able to discuss BDSM at all is because of people insisting on their right to be unacceptable to majority notions of love and sex.

At least WriterDom has the nads to have some convictions and be a sport about the fact that a lot of people don't agree. No one guarantees that you get a lot of people agreeing with you all the time, and most people are able to cope with that reality.

I agree, I don't think you can have a substantive debate under those circumstances.

I think you have made excellent points in support of the "casual" scene. And I am glad you did, because you made me see the safety issues from a different perspective than I would be aware of. The best thing about a forum like this is the opportunity to read perspectives different than my own.

 

[Primalex]

I agree, but given the number of un-substantive threads on this forum that just peter out without much attention, it's rather surprising to see so much vehemence directed against him.

He decided to be the attention whore with his appearance and blurts on half a dozen completely irrelevant threads. He wanted to be on the stage in the spotlight, now he is there.

There is no Rocky Horror Picture Show without toilet paper and rubber gloves.

 

[Keroin]

I agree, but given the number of un-substantive threads on this forum that just peter out without much attention, it's rather surprising to see so much vehemence directed against him.

It happens from time to time. People just start getting really mean. I'm still sad that osg got such harsh treatment a couple of months ago. I miss her.

I think this...

I'm not entirely sure how one is supposed to have a substantive debate with someone who came in and decided that anyone who doesn't agree with them is immature and worthy of sighing tolerance because they're so brilliant and enlightened.

I'm not entirely sure how someone is supposed to debate someone with fixed ideas about something they clearly have no aggregate experience with based on your experience with it - when they have expressed total unwillingness to consider the validity of anyone's thoughts with more experience.

I'm not entirely sure how someone is supposed to have a rational discussion with someone who has assigned them a place in a bogeyman subculture.

There are more of us here - but shift context one tiny bit and we're not the majority in ANY stretch of the imagination and BLoved is, with his full on persecution complex as response. A lot of people like him. They've decided what sex is for and everything that doesn't look like it is bad. I don't have to fabricate this, if I don't accept it as reality my rights and life and safety are in question.

I'm not here to make that point of view comfortable and I hope other people aren't either. I don't care if you think that I'm a psychotic hedonist who needs help, but if you think I'm going to pat your head and say "wow that's great" and not defend myself you're insane. The only reason we're able to discuss BDSM at all is because of people insisting on their right to be unacceptable to majority notions of love and sex.

At least WriterDom has the nads to have some convictions and be a sport about the fact that a lot of people don't agree. No one guarantees that you get a lot of people agreeing with you all the time, and most people are able to cope with that reality.

...covers it for me.

If I went to the GLBT forum and started posting in every thread that the only "true way" was hetero, that those who practiced homosexuality were evil and anyone who disagreed with me was immature, I think it would not be unreasonable to expect angry responses.

And, if someone on there was civilized and considerate enough to start a thread specifically for me to debate my position and all I did was regurgitate the same rhetoric, ad naseum, refuse to answer direct questions, complain I was being attacked and look down my nose at the community, then...?

As Netz said, in the wider world, the BDSM community is the minority. For this reason, I think the hostility here, in the face of someone who would once again like to paint us all as freaks and deviants, is simply the community defending itself. And rightfully so.

I do not attend play parties or public events, I've never signed a slave contract or had a mentor, I've never been to a munch or a dungeon, and I likely never will, but I'll be damned if I'll let someone come in here and tell all the people who do those things that they are less than or evil or immature. Fuck that. I've planted my flag and I stand by it.

Mind you, I stopped taking this guy seriously several pages ago.

 

[00Syd]

I'm not entirely sure how one is supposed to have a substantive debate with someone who came in and decided that anyone who doesn't agree with them is immature and worthy of sighing tolerance because they're so brilliant and enlightened.

I'm not entirely sure how someone is supposed to debate someone with fixed ideas about something they clearly have no aggregate experience with based on your experience with it - when they have expressed total unwillingness to consider the validity of anyone's thoughts with more experience.

I'm not entirely sure how someone is supposed to have a rational discussion with someone who has assigned them a place in a bogeyman subculture.

There are more of us here - but shift context one tiny bit and we're not the majority in ANY stretch of the imagination and BLoved is, with his full on persecution complex as response. A lot of people like him. They've decided what sex is for and everything that doesn't look like it is bad. I don't have to fabricate this, if I don't accept it as reality my rights and life and safety are in question.

I'm not here to make that point of view comfortable and I hope other people aren't either. I don't care if you think that I'm a psychotic hedonist who needs help, but if you think I'm going to pat your head and say "wow that's great" and not defend myself you're insane. The only reason we're able to discuss BDSM at all is because of people insisting on their right to be unacceptable to majority notions of love and sex.

At least WriterDom has the nads to have some convictions and be a sport about the fact that a lot of people don't agree. No one guarantees that you get a lot of people agreeing with you all the time, and most people are able to cope with that reality.

I think this...



...covers it for me.

If I went to the GLBT forum and started posting in every thread that the only "true way" was hetero, that whose who practiced homosexuality were evil and anyone who disagreed with me was immature, I think it would not be unreasonable to expect angry responses.

And, if someone on there was civilized and considerate enough to start a thread specifically for me to debate my position and all I did was regurgitate the same rhetoric, ad naseum, refuse to answer direct questions, complain I was being attacked and look down my nose at the community, then...?

As Netz said, in the wider world, the BDSM community is the minority. For this reason, I think the hostility here, in the face of someone who would once again like to paint us all as freaks and deviants, is simply the community defending itself. And rightfully so.

I do not attend play parties or public events, I've never signed a slave contract or had a mentor, I've never been to a munch or a dungeon, and I likely never will, but I'll be damned if I'll let someone come in here and tell all the people who do those things that they are less than or evil or immature. Fuck that. I've planted my flag and I stand by it.

Mind you, I stopped taking this guy seriously several pages ago.

Ditto.

Thanks for more articulately saying what I was planning to say! Big help

 

[eastern sun]

I think the paucity of his experience with the casual scene quickly cast light on the breadth and depth of his perspective, but I don't think he's representing any "mainstream" here.

I think he's quite isolated, in fact, having embraced BDSM but not the BDSM community. If he's living as a master, and I guess I've taken him at his word there, he's engaged in more BDSM than many of the readers on this board.

(Isn't it that isolation, coupled with the fixation, that makes him feel like a predator?)

 

[Primalex]

If he's living as a master, and I guess I've taken him at his word there, he's engaged in more BDSM than many of the readers on this board.

I'm quite sure this is the case.


And cooking dinner is of course a BDSM task.

 

[subish2009]

I think the paucity of his experience with the casual scene quickly cast light on the breadth and depth of his perspective, but I don't think he's representing any "mainstream" here.

I think he's quite isolated, in fact, having embraced BDSM but not the BDSM community. If he's living as a master, and I guess I've taken him at his word there, he's engaged in more BDSM than many of the readers on this board.

(Isn't it that isolation, coupled with the fixation, that makes him feel like a predator?)

I don't know, easternsun, I kinda have to disagree with you. I don't care what you are, who you are, how isolated you are, how difficult a time you have understanding someone else's point of view, if you go into someone's house swinging, you can't really complain when they demand that you state your case coherently and rationally, you utterly refuse to do so, insist on continuing to make wild, sweeping, generalized attacks on all and sundry, and get your wrist slapped a bit in response.

Seriously, he came in here out of nowhere and started slinging mud at everyone. WTF do you expect? That we're all just going to sit here and take it? I have no sympathy. He had PLENTY of chances for civilized discussion. That's not what he wants. He WANTS the drama, he WANTS to be persecuted, he WANTS exactly what he's gotten, which is ALL OF OUR ATTENTION for DAYS on end, on multiple threads. He talks in circles, he says nothing substantive, I'm not entirely sure he's all there.

But I don't care. You really think he should be permitted to say whatever he wants, when that includes stomping all over other people's rights to live their private lives the way they see fit and those being attacked should be given no right to defend themselves in debate?!? Because that's what I see him demanding and it's bullshit.

 

[Keroin]

I think the paucity of his experience with the casual scene quickly cast light on the breadth and depth of his perspective, but I don't think he's representing any "mainstream" here.

I think he's quite isolated, in fact, having embraced BDSM but not the BDSM community. If he's living as a master, and I guess I've taken him at his word there, he's engaged in more BDSM than many of the readers on this board.

(Isn't it that isolation, coupled with the fixation, that makes him feel like a predator?)

Just because his experience doesn't align perfectly with the mainstream doesn't mean he isn't espousing many of their views and prejudices.

Prior to Lit, I engaged in BDSM without being part of a community and yet I would never have denounced those who were part of it.

 

[Keroin]

By the way, ES, I think it's admirable of you to fight for objectivity and tolerance.

Generally, I don't waste my time on the wack-a-loons that pass through here and would usually agree with you one hundred percent, but I think this man's message is offensive and does an injustice to the people who've worked hard to be accepted for who and what they are.

 

[subish2009]

By the way, ES, I think it's admirable of you to fight for objectivity and tolerance.

Generally, I don't waste my time on the wack-a-loons that pass through here and would usually agree with you one hundred percent, but I think this man's message is offensive and does an injustice to the people who've worked hard to be accepted for who and what they are.

Yes, exactly. ES, I hope my little rant didn't come off as a rant toward you. I, too, appreciate your attempts to remain objective here. I just refuse to play someone else's game when they won't play by mature, adult, rational rules. You know?

 

[eastern sun]

I'm quite sure this is the case.

And cooking dinner is of course a BDSM task.

Dinner is only a BDSM task, if you make it one. Try it with one hand tied behind your back.

 

[eastern sun]

I responded to subish's first post before I read her second one. . . .

I'm just struck by the vehemence with which the group turned on him. Either he was deeply threatening. Or a huge target. Or both.

 

[subish2009]

Yes, I think he has a right to say whatever he wants.

Yes, I think people have the right to defend themselves when necessary.

How did he threaten you so badly?

Me personally? He didn't. I've never been to a play party or a munch or any of the other activities that I think he's associating with "casual BDSM," a term I'm not sure I fully understand his use of, but that's okay.

I guess it would be more accurate to say that I'm threatened by his coming on this board and declaring an entire group of people "wrong" and "bad" and "evil" without bothering to find out what they think, believe, or practice. I am threatened by random, unpredictable, personal, irrational, and incomprehensible attacks on myself, people I respect and kind of know and care about, and people who were sitting around minding their own business harming no one.

I also am an emotional person and easy to rile so I apologize if I'm crossing any lines from "feisty" to "irrational" myself. I often do so without realizing I need to rein in the crazy a little bit, which is why I stayed out of this drama for so long. He eventually just pushed one too many buttons, I guess.

 

[Primalex]

I'm just struck by the vehemence with which the group turned on him. Either he was deeply threatening. Or a huge target. Or both.

Neither.

Insulting on a very broad level.

Even I'm smart enough to insult only people - and not a whole lifestyle.

 

[Keroin]

I responded to subish's first post before I read her second one. . . .

I'm just struck by the vehemence with which the group turned on him. Either he was deeply threatening. Or a huge target. Or both.

I remember going out for dinner with my best friend, MD, one night. Her family is from the East Indies, she is black.

In the middle of our meal, a co-worker came in with her then-boyfriend, so we waved them over to join us. The boyfriend started out OK but gradually started showing subtle hints of racism. MD and I did our best to either laugh off or ignore the comments he made but he just kept going and the racism became less and less subtle. Finally, he said to MD, "Why don't you just go back where you came from."

At which point, I lost it. Civility, gone. Vehemence? Yes.

MD was actually far more restrained than I was, but this...asshole, (yes, asshole)...attacked someone I care about over the colour of her skin. WTF? I have a line, he crossed it, simple as that.

If they'd been having a debate, each laying out a reasoned argument, no matter how heated, I would have kept myself in check.

I see a very similar response here.

 

[intothewoods]

I agree, but given the number of un-substantive threads on this forum that just peter out without much attention, it's rather surprising to see so much vehemence directed against him.

It happens from time to time. People just start getting really mean. I'm still sad that osg got such harsh treatment a couple of months ago. I miss her.

I don't like mean. I hear you on that. Some people are harsher than others around here. Actually, WD has told me I've been a complete bitch to him, so perhaps I'm not immune.

I'm not sure which osg thread you are referring to, or which posters. There are people who like to pile on and attack. I'm not defending those posts. On the other hand, I take issue with what seems to be a bit of hypocrisy from osg on some issues. It's not reasonable to advocate for what would strike most people as an extreme point of view, and not expect to be challenged on it. Am I out of line? Live your life however you wish, but this is a discussion forum.

And I realize we all could strike someone as extreme and offensive. What can I say? I find some things that some people say on this forum deeply offensive, and so I say something about it. I know a former poster around here who is politically conservative has expressed the same feeling. She is a lovely person, and I miss her around here too -- but it kills me to read her blog! But I digress -- political differences are another issue...KC also rarely posts in discussion threads around here. I would like to hear her point of view too. I'm still digressing.

 

[intothewoods]

I think the paucity of his experience with the casual scene quickly cast light on the breadth and depth of his perspective, but I don't think he's representing any "mainstream" here.

I think he's quite isolated, in fact, having embraced BDSM but not the BDSM community. If he's living as a master, and I guess I've taken him at his word there, he's engaged in more BDSM than many of the readers on this board.

(Isn't it that isolation, coupled with the fixation, that makes him feel like a predator?)

Snort.

He doesn't make me that pissed off, just perplexed. I don't think he's a predator. I think he's goading people here though, and that is a quality that drives me nuts.

 

[chy_girl]

*snip*
I guess it would be more accurate to say that I'm threatened by his coming on this board and declaring an entire group of people "wrong" and "bad" and "evil" without bothering to find out what they think, believe, or practice. I am threatened by random, unpredictable, personal, irrational, and incomprehensible attacks on myself, people I respect and kind of know and care about, and people who were sitting around minding their own business harming no one.
*snip*

That part up there might just have something to do with it.

And call me touchy, but to have someone I've not said a damned word to parade through the threads and denounce us as a whole (and me by extension) as unethical and somehow less of a PYL/ply because we won't agree with a belief that he won't do more than allude to is bullshit. He knows nothing about me or my ethics or the situation of my submission, just as he knows nothing about others here or their ethics or their BDSM situation. I call bullshit.

He evokes almost the exact same reaction from me as the protesters who stand in front of an abortion clinic and try to guilt the women who come in search of help.

 

[Keroin]

Snort.

He doesn't make me that pissed off, just perplexed. I don't think he's a predator. I think he's goading people here though, and that is a quality that drives me nuts.

Yes, there is goading. Drives me nuts, too.

 

[chy_girl]

Yes, there is goading. Drives me nuts, too.

The condescending ~smiles~ didn't help either.

 

[Seurat]

I would say that I am normally a lurker, but every once in a while I need to say something.

I am not agreeing with BLoved statements, but I think that he has the right to say them, just as we all do. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one. If you say you don't you must be full of shit.

My current problem lies with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by subish2009 View Post
*snip*
I guess it would be more accurate to say that I'm threatened by his coming on this board and declaring an entire group of people "wrong" and "bad" and "evil" without bothering to find out what they think, believe, or practice. I am threatened by random, unpredictable, personal, irrational, and incomprehensible attacks on myself, people I respect and kind of know and care about, and people who were sitting around minding their own business harming no one.
*snip*
That part up there might just have something to do with it.

And call me touchy, but to have someone I've not said a damned word to parade through the threads and denounce us as a whole (and me by extension) as unethical and somehow less of a PYL/ply because we won't agree with a belief that he won't do more than allude to is bullshit. He knows nothing about me or my ethics or the situation of my submission, just as he knows nothing about others here or their ethics or their BDSM situation. I call bullshit.

He evokes almost the exact same reaction from me as the protesters who stand in front of an abortion clinic and try to guilt the women who come in search of help.

and that the fact that the first post of this entire thread reads as this:

Reference BLoved's writings for the anti-"casual BDSM" view -

Casual BDSM and Emotional Abuse

... and his other writings for the "True Love" view -

Love and Respect

So... debate away my dears... debate away.

(And full disclaimer - I've only briefly skimmed the writings above. I might eventually read them for the sake of debate, or I might not. I haven't decided yet.)

I think that when you bring up another persons viewpoint to be discussed in your house, you should be prepared for them to defend, no matter how you may feel about said defense. Technically, BLoved was invited with the initial post about his works.

Now, if you want to discuss wether or not he is a troll when it concerns his expressed thoughts in this thread, that would be a whole other topic, wouldn't it?


Just saying.

 

[Primalex]

I think that when you bring up another persons viewpoint to be discussed in your house, you should be prepared for them to defend,

We would love to hear a defense! Defense...blah.. something like an argument would be great already.

 

[Keroin]

I would say that I am normally a lurker, but every once in a while I need to say something.

I am not agreeing with BLoved statements, but I think that he has the right to say them, just as we all do. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one. If you say you don't you must be full of shit.

My current problem lies with this:


and that the fact that the first post of this entire thread reads as this:



I think that when you bring up another persons viewpoint to be discussed in your house, you should be prepared for them to defend, no matter how you may feel about said defense. Technically, BLoved was invited with the initial post about his works.

Now, if you want to discuss wether or not he is a troll when it concerns his expressed thoughts in this thread, that would be a whole other topic, wouldn't it?


Just saying.

Seurat, I'm just wondering if you are aware of the discussion, in another thread that prompted this thread?

To recap...

BLoved was posting his views on several, unrelated, threads in the cafe and it was getting out of hand. CM then suggested that if he was so set on getting his point across then maybe a separate thread would be a good idea, then we could discuss and debate his ideas and not disturb the other topics. BLoved agreed but refused to start the thread which brings us to this current thread.

You can read through my thread to see what has led us here, if you like.
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=701369

And thanks for stepping out of lurkdom to join in!

 

[Seurat]

We would love to hear a defense! Defense...blah.. something like an argument would be great already.

Well, he did sort of stick his spear in the sand and say 'this is mine'. He just is not giving a good debate on why.

 

[Seurat]

Well, he did sort of stick his spear in the sand and say 'this is mine'. He just is not giving a good debate on why.

To recap...

BLoved was posting his views on several, unrelated, threads in the cafe and it was getting out of hand. CM then suggested that if he was so set on getting his point across then maybe a separate thread would be a good idea, then we could discuss and debate his ideas and not disturb the other topics. BLoved agreed but refused to start the thread which brings us to this current thread.

You can read through my thread to see what has led us here, if you like.
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=701369

And thanks for stepping out of lurkdom to join in!
__________________

Once again, I find myself in public with my pants around my ankles, and not intentionally.

Some of those arguments remind me of the logic problems in college:

The sky is blue.
Water is blue.
Therefore, the sky is made of water.

Okay.

My jeans are blue.
Water is blue.
Therefore, my jeans are made of water.

It's catching the twists that I missed in the other thread, and I should have looked deeper and seen the foundation for this thread. Thanks for the heads up.



And thanks for the welcome. Which way is the bar, and which way are the bathrooms? Priorities first.