Weakness

[Netzach]

I'm a selfish asshole and if I didn't use the reactions of people around me as a litmus test for whether I'm being insane or not I *know* I'd be worse off. That doesn't mean I'm always testing people though that IS a weakness of mine - more often it just means I'm paying attention to their reaction.

However, I'm in no danger of being anything other than my own person.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I rely on the people in the grocery store if I am to obtain food.

I rely on the people in the hardware store if I am to obtain tools.

I rely on the people who work on the farms and in the factories who supply these stores.

I rely on the people in the mines who supply the ore needed to make the tools used by farms and factories ...

I rely on my neighbour not to get it into his head it would be easier if he came down and stole what I have.

Relying on others is what we do in a society of humans.

As for allowing what others think of me to affect me and my sense of well-being ... what my beloved thinks of me matters, as her happiness and her love are as important to me as my own, if not moreso. I am willing to sacrifice the satisfaction of my own needs so as to meet hers.

I trust her judgment, her insight. If hers disagrees with mine, I do not dismiss it as irrelevant, but rather look into her thoughts and feelings as if they were my own. Her viewpoint has merit and is worthy of consideration.

This is true of my good friends, those I've trusted and whose trustworthiness has proven to be dependable.

None of this makes me weak. This is what it is to be human, and the day I start losing these qualities is the day I retire from life.

There is no joy living an isolated existence.

All valid points, but since we're mostly just talking in the emotional/interpersonal scope here (well, that was my intention, anyways) I'll stick with that.

Knowing your own needs, and being willing to sacrifice them for someone you love, or interacting with friends and family and valuing their opinions in an entirely other thing to selfishly using people as emotional props, because you don't want to do that hard work in knowing and understanding yourself.

Judging from one post (way to go with the assumption making, girlfriend!) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think you sound like you do indeed have a firm grip on who you are as a person, and your place in the worlds.

I know a few people who don't. And those are more the kinds I was talking about.

 

[Keroin]

I try to remember that, but admittedly it is sometimes hard to imagine things are different to how they appear.

Catalina

Yes, very much so. I also have to remind myself that everyone is at a different point in their journey. "Take your own path, at your own pace" sort of thing. If I met the me of twenty years ago, I would not like that person very much, I would think her weak, but that person helped me to become who I am.

Analyze any good story. What makes the hero/heroine lovable?

In each and every case, the quality required to make them lovable is that they have the courage to be vulnerable in front of another.

... much as you are doing here.

Thanks for the compliment, however, from a completely literary standpoint, I have to disagree. There are heroes who I love because they show vulnerability and there are heroes I love because they learn to discard vulnerability.

Think of those moments when the whimpering, hapless victim suddenly reaches inside themselves and comes out swinging - those are moments we cheer, too.

Knowing thyself, the good, the bad and the ugly, is truly confrontational, but it means you'll never be caught short when it's time to nut up and be your own person. If you need to rely on others, and what you think those others think of you to bolster yourself, then that's just weak.

None of this makes me weak. This is what it is to be human, and the day I start losing these qualities is the day I retire from life.

There is no joy living an isolated existence.

I don't think Lizzie is suggesting that we can't or shouldn't rely on each other in some capacity or that we should isolate ourselves from one another, that's not the sense I get from her story. I think she's trying to say that self awareness, especially of one's flaws, is a strength.

Lizzie, your post reminds me of the Robbie Burns poem, To a Louse

Oh would some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us

But, then again, it's not enough just to see ourselves as others see us, I think we then also have to decide which parts we can live with and which we need to change.

 

[BLoved]

... selfishly using people as emotional props, because you don't want to do that hard work in knowing and understanding yourself.

It would help if you defined your terms.

I often find such terminology to be quite subjective in its interpretation.

One person's "manipulation" is another person's "influence".

 

[Keroin]

I envy people who can cry in front of others. Or who can just cry.

My friend Mo, she's so beautiful. She's all softness and nurturing and love. In many ways, she epitomizes motherhood, for me. She's also very emotional. She'll be telling a story or just talking about something that moves her and a few tears will roll down her face and...lovely.

Can't do it. I look at others and think, "How human, how touching" and yet for me I think, "Don't be such a baby." No, I don't even think anything, it's burned into my subconscious.

I cry maybe once a year, sometimes twice. It's a red faced, ugly, snot fest when it happens. I feel out of control and, after it happens, I'm drained. I hate it. And yet, if anyone shows up when it's happening - whoosh - it stops, dries up. I find it hard to even shed a tear in front of my husband.

The last time I cried was when my cat had to be put to sleep, about 6 months ago.

ETA: Two days ago, Lance said to me, "You have a face made for smiling". I like smiling, and laughing, it feels natural.

 

[BLoved]

Thanks for the compliment, however, from a completely literary standpoint, I have to disagree. There are heroes who I love because they show vulnerability and there are heroes I love because they learn to discard vulnerability.

Think of those moments when the whimpering, hapless victim suddenly reaches inside themselves and comes out swinging - those are moments we cheer, too.

True, but we cheer those moments because we know how much the "whimpering, hapless victim" endured to achieve such courage.

What would Superman be without kryptonite to render him helpless?

Think of Smeagol/Gollum. As loathesome as he is, we still feel pity for him knowing his fate is not one he knowingly chose. We do not feel this pity for Saruman, who knew better and fell from grace.

Saruman shows no remorse, and so earns no affection. But Smeagol makes the effort to overcome the power of the ring, and his failure is tragic (in the literary sense).

Consider Frodo. We see how overwhelming the task is before him. We know how poorly equipped he is to accomplish this task. He confesses as much, and this is when he becomes a lovable character rather than a foolish one who thinks himself so grand as not to need the help of others.

Lizzie, your post reminds me of the Robbie Burns poem, To a Louse

Oh would some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us

But, then again, it's not enough just to see ourselves as others see us, I think we then also have to decide which parts we can live with and which we need to change.

Unfortunately, not everyone, or even most people, see us for who and what we are.

They see us through the prism of subjectivity, and in trying to explain behaviour they reach for experiences with which they are familiar.

Indeed, I often find it a useful tool to determine a person's insight by how accurate they are when they attempt to explain my behaviour.

The earth was not flat just because everyone thought it flat, no more so than it became round when enough people changed their minds about the shape of the earth.

There is nothing about a majority that requires anyone to believe they are ever right.

Leaders and trail-blazers know all too well the experience of being sighted in the Land of the Blind.

 

[Keroin]

It would help if you defined your terms.

I often find such terminology to be quite subjective in its interpretation.

One person's "manipulation" is another person's "influence".

Well, she is Australian and thus difficult to understand

(Sorry Lizzie, couldn't resist).

Unfortunately, not everyone, or even most people, see us for who and what we are.

They see us through the prism of subjectivity, and in trying to explain behaviour they reach for experiences with which they are familiar.

There is nothing about a majority that requires anyone to believe they are ever right.

True, I can't know everyone's backstory and motivations for their behaviour but that's not always relevant. Even when I do know the story behind the behaviour, I don't always care.

 

[BLoved]

True, I can't know everyone's backstory and motivations for their behaviour but that's not always relevant. Even when I do know the story behind the behaviour, I don't always care.

It has been my experience most people do not care what assumptions they make regarding another.

Far too many people are concerned with the effect their words have on others, either favourable for themselves and friends, or unfavourable towards those they dislike.

You see this a lot in politics, but unfortunately that trend has permeated society at large, and is applied to all sorts of situations.

This is the manner in which the idealism of a society degenerates to mob-rule and vigilante justice.

Too often insult and accusation replaces the reasoned argument.

 

[Keroin]

It has been my experience most people do not care what assumptions they make regarding another.

Far too many people are concerned with the effect their words have on others, either favourable for themselves and friends, or unfavourable towards those they dislike.

You see this a lot in politics, but unfortunately that trend has permeated society at large, and is applied to all sorts of situations.

This is the manner in which the idealism of a society degenerates to mob-rule and vigilante justice.

Too often insult and accusation replaces the reasoned argument.

I think you are missing my point. Let me clarify - I'll use a real life example to help explain.

In my previous career, I worked with a fellow who was an asshole. Plain and simple. Sometimes we were co-workers, sometimes he was my boss but the work structure was such that I had no recourse, no one to deal with him for me, since his behaviour never crossed any legal lines.

Now, I knew that this person had a past substance abuse problem, a bad marriage and some financial stress, which undoubtedly contributed to his assholishness. I knew, also, that several people had made very genuine yet unsuccessful attempts to help him with his problems.

My position was such that I had no influence over him, no means to help him and no way to extract myself from dealing with him on a regular basis. (Not to mention, hey, I'm just trying to do my job and that job definitely did not entail being someone's therapist and/or verbal punching bag).

So, there you go. The guy's an asshole, I know some of the reasons he's an asshole but that doesn't change anything - in my opinion, and that of many others, he's still an asshole. Maybe, just maybe, if he had been able to see how everyone else saw him, maybe if he realized how much damage he did to others and to himself, he might have taken a closer look at his life and his behaviour. Maybe.

In any case, I hardly think my opinion of this person is responsible for the slide of an idealistic society into vigilante justice and mob rule.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Well, she is Australian and thus difficult to understand

(Sorry Lizzie, couldn't resist).

*hops on my kangaroo and chases after Keroin, waving a stick menacingly*

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Unfortunately, not everyone, or even most people, see us for who and what we are.

They see us through the prism of subjectivity, and in trying to explain behaviour they reach for experiences with which they are familiar.

Absolutely.

But what about those that believe the way they see themselves is how others see them as well?

 

[Keroin]

*hops on my kangaroo and chases after Keroin, waving a stick menacingly*

I'm scared as.

 

[rida]

I envy people who can cry in front of others. Or who can just cry.

Crying in front of strangers is much easier than in front of friends and people I care.

Crying because a movie or a song makes my eyes leak ... it's embarrassing but I can live with that. I still try to avoid it by tuning out whatever is that it is making me all sniffley, but if it happens chances are that nobody would say anything. And if they do, I just explain that even commercials and cartoons make me cry and that I'm just a wuss. And laugh it off.

Crying because I ache from the inside ... very private.
And even in private, I try to avoid it. Why? Because the reality is I wish I could do it in front of someone that cares and that would know how to console and make me feel better. But since I do not want to impose my emotional outpouring on anybody, I don't (plus a part of me thinks nobody would care and another part of me arrogantly believe that even if they did, they would not understand). So I write and rub my eyes red and puffy.

 

[Homburg]

I envy people who can cry in front of others. Or who can just cry.

I cry. Not often, and it bugs me sometimes when it does happen, but it happens. Frustration edging into rage is more likely to make me tear up than anything else, and that is pretty much my mother's domain there. She's the only person that can provoke me to that point. Nobody else is that way and enjoys the same protection that she does.

But still, I can cry over particularly stirring music that hits me at the right moment, or a touching story, or something like that. I used to think it was weakness as well, but then I looked at it in context. I realised that it was better in most of those situations to gain some measure of release from crying than it was to flip out and break something/one.

I dunno, I figure it is more about me knowing myself than it is about being strong or weak. I just don't mind displaying my emotions when there is good reason. I don't find it weak or strong, just me.

 

[Netzach]

I also exist somewhere comfortably between easy waterworks and fanatically hermetically shut off from crying.

One place it doesn't belong, no matter how upset you are: work. If you just found out your 15 year old dog or a near relative died, that's one thing, but crying AT work, OVER work? I'm absolutely pitiless about that.

 

[Homburg]

I also exist somewhere comfortably between easy waterworks and fanatically hermetically shut off from crying.

One place it doesn't belong, no matter how upset you are: work. If you just found out your 15 year old dog or a near relative died, that's one thing, but crying AT work, OVER work? I'm absolutely pitiless about that.

No kidding. I can't stand that.

I'm also not a fan of crying over physical pain. I've done some wrong shit to myself, and never shed one tear. Now, I don't look down on others that are crying due to serious pain, but it doesn't happen with me.

I actually worry more about those times when I don't cry but really should. I get emotionally disconnected and that is a bad thing.

 

[BLoved]

Maybe, just maybe, if he had been able to see how everyone else saw him, maybe if he realized how much damage he did to others and to himself, he might have taken a closer look at his life and his behaviour. Maybe.

~smile~

I am quite sure there are more than a few people who would say the same about me.

More than a few times I've confronted an angry mob with their own hypocrisy and heard words and reasoning that sounded much the same as what you've said.

I'm not commenting on your situation, as I do not know the individual in question I am not in a position to judge one way or the other.

What I have learned is that without that first-hand experience I am merely relying on one stranger's opinion regarding another stranger, neither of whom have I assessed by my own standards and through my own means.

In any case, I hardly think my opinion of this person is responsible for the slide of an idealistic society into vigilante justice and mob rule.

An avalanche is nothing more than a group of snowflakes.

Like raindrops striking a pond, our decisions ripple their way through society.

You can see this with fads and trends. Knowledge and discoveries transform our world-view. Tragedies and triumphs change our perception of reality.

We all have a part to play in the way the world works.

 

[BLoved]

But what about those that believe the way they see themselves is how others see them as well?

~smile~

I think they're being a little too optimistic, perhaps out of a lack of experience with a wide range of people.

But in a sense we are all guilty of this. I write words assuming everyone will understand them as I meant them, while my experience tells me that each reader will interpret the words according to their own interpretation and experience, which likely has little to do with the meaning I intended.

Considering how fragile language is as a means of communication, we are surprisingly short-sighted when it comes to misunderstandings. We just can't seem to imagine such a problem when we are being so 'clear'

 

[eastern sun]

. . . . .

 

[Keroin]

Crying in front of strangers is much easier than in front of friends and people I care.

Crying because a movie or a song makes my eyes leak ... it's embarrassing but I can live with that. I still try to avoid it by tuning out whatever is that it is making me all sniffley, but if it happens chances are that nobody would say anything. And if they do, I just explain that even commercials and cartoons make me cry and that I'm just a wuss. And laugh it off.

Crying because I ache from the inside ... very private.
And even in private, I try to avoid it. Why? Because the reality is I wish I could do it in front of someone that cares and that would know how to console and make me feel better. But since I do not want to impose my emotional outpouring on anybody, I don't (plus a part of me thinks nobody would care and another part of me arrogantly believe that even if they did, they would not understand). So I write and rub my eyes red and puffy.

Interesting, Rida. You see, I don't think people are wussy for crying, I think they're human. I'm not kidding when I say I wish I could do it. I don't consciously try not to, it just doesn't happen - and I know that I would be consoled, if I did.

I almost watched Lance die once. That was surreal. I mean I stood there and there were all these people around and paramedics carrying him away on the spine board and stuff and everyone was looking at me. Maybe I was in shock, I don't know, I was worried, for sure but I felt like everyone was expecting me to break down into tears because even people who didn't know him were crying. But it wasn't there. I just climbed in the ambulance and off we went.

I cry. Not often, and it bugs me sometimes when it does happen, but it happens. Frustration edging into rage is more likely to make me tear up than anything else, and that is pretty much my mother's domain there. She's the only person that can provoke me to that point. Nobody else is that way and enjoys the same protection that she does.

But still, I can cry over particularly stirring music that hits me at the right moment, or a touching story, or something like that. I used to think it was weakness as well, but then I looked at it in context. I realised that it was better in most of those situations to gain some measure of release from crying than it was to flip out and break something/one.

I dunno, I figure it is more about me knowing myself than it is about being strong or weak. I just don't mind displaying my emotions when there is good reason. I don't find it weak or strong, just me.

Rage and frustration is usually what provokes it in me. L and I have our annual "Big Fight with Yelling and Tears", that's when it happens. When all the shit I've bottled up for twelve months comes spewing out in a gigantic, mucus-laden fountain.

Ick.

I also exist somewhere comfortably between easy waterworks and fanatically hermetically shut off from crying.

One place it doesn't belong, no matter how upset you are: work. If you just found out your 15 year old dog or a near relative died, that's one thing, but crying AT work, OVER work? I'm absolutely pitiless about that.

Geez, I had this girl break into tears once because I tried to show her how to take better photos, (this was at a fishing resort and all the pictures she took of the guests with their fish were coming out blurry). I just stared at her, I had no idea where it came from or how to handle it.

Do. Not. Like.

No kidding. I can't stand that.

I'm also not a fan of crying over physical pain. I've done some wrong shit to myself, and never shed one tear. Now, I don't look down on others that are crying due to serious pain, but it doesn't happen with me.

I actually worry more about those times when I don't cry but really should. I get emotionally disconnected and that is a bad thing.

I've never cried from physical pain. I've cursed. Lots. And a couple of times I nearly puked/fainted.

~smile~

I am quite sure there are more than a few people who would say the same about me.

More than a few times I've confronted an angry mob with their own hypocrisy and heard words and reasoning that sounded much the same as what you've said.

Yeah, I think we're on different planets. No offense. The person in question, BTW, would do things like...oh...tell me he would hire me but only if I dumped my boyfriend. And he was dead serious. Welcome to the film business. Now, if you engage in the same sort of behaviour as I just described then I wouldn't hesitate to label you as an asshole, as well. Just sayin'.

I think I'm fairly qualified at asshole spotting.

We all have a part to play in the way the world works.

No argument here.

 

[Netzach]

No kidding. I can't stand that.

I'm also not a fan of crying over physical pain. I've done some wrong shit to myself, and never shed one tear. Now, I don't look down on others that are crying due to serious pain, but it doesn't happen with me.

I actually worry more about those times when I don't cry but really should. I get emotionally disconnected and that is a bad thing.

I realized that I don't cry from physical pain lately - if it's really life threatening or just plain 10 out of 10 I laugh or pass out.

However physical pain plus requisite amounts of trauma or terror and I will cry. Dental work going poorly and I cry. Walking appendicitis and I just wince along till my MD tells me I'm not winning martyr prizes.

But I'll also cry if I don't get my way. Just generally not where people can see me.

 

[BLoved]

I think I'm fairly qualified at asshole spotting.

~smile~

I'm sure you do. Most people believe they have this ability.

Reminds me of 'gay-dar'.

My experience has demonstrated that people find it difficult to recognize those who are more mature than themselves, and tend to view those more mature in a hostile manner.

By the time one can actually recognize "assholes", he or she has matured to the degree where they realize the label is meaningless.

Most people in modern society are maladjusted, the result of growing up in a corrupt society.

When you stop and realize all of them were born without an awareness of cruelty or malice, you begin to realize cruelty and malice are perpetuated through abuse, not choice.

We are taught to be cruel, we're not born that way.

Who then do we blame for those who are cruel?

Who taught cruelty to those who were innocent?

Like raindrops on a pond, our decisions ripple their way through society.

 

[Netzach]

~smile~

I'm sure you do. Most people believe they have this ability.

Reminds me of 'gay-dar'.

My experience has demonstrated that people find it difficult to recognize those who are more mature than themselves, and tend to view those more mature in a hostile manner.

By the time one can actually recognize "assholes", he or she has matured to the degree where they realize the label is meaningless.

Most people in modern society are maladjusted, the result of growing up in a corrupt society.

When you stop and realize all of them were born without an awareness of cruelty or malice, you begin to realize cruelty and malice are perpetuated through abuse, not choice.

We are taught to be cruel, we're not born that way.

Who then do we blame for those who are cruel?

Who taught cruelty to those who were innocent?

Like raindrops on a pond, our decisions ripple their way through society.

Oh please. No one is responsible for a single moral failing, it's just that Mommy beat them, and your own perception of victimization by other people is your own fault, and you should be tolerant of every abuse because it might come from a place of pain?

I don't think so. I'd like to poke people in the face, crush them emotionally, and kick small children sometimes, but it's this thing called impulse control and socialization. There are boundaries and contracts in socialization, and infinite tolerance of cruelty is just stupidity. If I actually did any of the above, I would need to be reined in through one of several channels for the well being of people around me who can control themselves.

The idea that I have to go around and double check every burning hot stove personally to see if it burns or if it's just personal prejudice is ludicrous, and the same notion applied to people is as well.

Some people are toxic and to be avoided and will actively hurt you or even maim or kill you. Some of them are kind enough to broadcast that. It's the universe giving you a little present, your judgment, at times. Even moderation in moderation - I know it's sad not to go through the world meeting every adversary with Buddha-like wonderment, but I believe the dude even coined the moderation in moderation concept.

So are you actually positing that because this person has sadness and pain in his existence it green lights his fine example of quid pro quo sexual harrassment? Let's just pretend for argument's sake that Keroin's version of her experience isn't some delusion-induced ranting. Does being subject to quid pro quo harrassment maybe earn you the ability to assess someone as "an asshole?"

Keroin, wow, you are like, so judgmental. *toke*

 

[Keroin]

Oh please. No one is responsible for a single moral failing, it's just that Mommy beat them, and your own perception of victimization by other people is your own fault, and you should be tolerant of every abuse because it might come from a place of pain?

I don't think so. I'd like to poke people in the face, crush them emotionally, and kick small children sometimes, but it's this thing called impulse control and socialization. There are boundaries and contracts in socialization, and infinite tolerance of cruelty is just stupidity.

The idea that I have to go around and double check every burning hot stove personally to see if it burns or if it's just personal prejudice is ludicrous, and the same notion applied to people is as well.

Some people are toxic and to be avoided and will actively hurt you or even maim or kill you. Some of them are kind enough to broadcast that. It's the universe giving you a little present, your judgment, at times. Even moderation in moderation - I know it's sad not to go through the world meeting every adversary with Buddha-like wonderment, but I believe the dude even coined the moderation in moderation concept.

So are you actually positing that because this person has sadness and pain in his existence it green lights his fine example of quid pro quo sexual harrassment? Let's just pretend for argument's sake that Keroin's version of her experience isn't some delusion-induced ranting. Does being subject to quid pro quo harrassment maybe earn you the ability to assess someone as "an asshole?"

Keroin, wow, you are like, so judgmental. *toke*

I am an asshole. I admit it.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

 

[Netzach]

Well we KNOW I'm an asshole. But nothing brings on the asshole in me like "no, no, the person being SLAPPED just needs to turn the other cheek" and somehow the peson who's just been (insulted, genocided against, racism-ed, touched by the Priest) is the person who's oppressing the poor poor antihero who just didn't get hugged enough.

goody gumdrops if that's your theology and cosmology, but please leave everyone else out of it. Sorry there's just a LOT of co-optation of the one-down position going down out there.