Some questions for Republicans

[MzDeviancy]

I feel dizzy...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You are dizzy.

 

[jeninflorida]

So the word got out about him having sex with monica, that was what I thought. And then, Newt Gingrich took out after him with a locked and loaded Ken Starr. And Clinton tried to do the gentlemanly thing and protect the lady's reputation, a lost cause, and his own. And then Starr et all got into the bullyrag. We know all of that.

But, how did him fucking a woman effect his running the country? Why does that make him a bad president?

And still-- what was the second, third, fourth?

I wasn’t a fan of the witch hunt, sure I believe that the Clinton’s were a little on the gray side of some business dealings but both of them are very intelligent and attorneys…too smart to get caught on some deal. How many millions did the they waste on that fishing trip.

About the Monica thing, did his affair hurt how he ran the country? Please, if anything he would be less cranky getting some. Assuming he would be slightly distracted with the Starr led fishing trip.

Here is where the issues with Clinton get a little muddy. First a lot of old fashioned people became upset knowing that Clinton would remove his suit jacket while in the oval office. Also, that Clinton degraded the office by having sex with interns. Do I care that he removed his jacket? No. Do I think that his affair clouded his mine? No, he’s a horny old man. Did his affair hurt the county? No, the finishing trip did more harm.

Stella, do you feel that this is where politics started to get really ugly? I’m starting to think that this is where the divorce happened (or maybe this is when I personally started to pay a little attention to what our political leaders were doing).

With what I said in a different post on this topic, I think a lot of love/hate for a president is where one personal economic standing is with the start of a president, and the state of a persons economic standing when that president leaves. A lot of people found jobs when Clinton was in office. My personal religion on this subject that our path was set by Regan and the massive military spending.

I just remember all the bashing my parents would do when the name Carter came up. Hard to imagine that interest rates on mortgages were around 14-20%, but at least the bank gave you a toaster when you opened an account.

So in the end, in my opinion Clinton did some good things and he did some bad things.

 

[bronzeage]

Point taken. I suppose that LBJ gets a lot of the attention on this score because he got real-time publicity for his crassness. He did belch with the best of them.

There is a tape of LBJ on the phone with the President of the Hagar menswear company, ordering a pair of pants. He wants a little more material "between my nuts and my bunghole," because the last pair he bought were too tight.

To which Mr. Hagar says, "Yes Sir, Mr. President."

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Yes yes, but how did that make him a bad president? What horrible harm did he do to the country?

Bush didn't lying about having sex. He lied to send our soldiers into war. He destroyed a country. On the strength of lies.

When Clinton lied, people sighed
when Bush lied, people died.

First, I never said it made him a bad president, just a dishonest one. And do I think his having sex, which he denies yet everyone believes he did, while in office made him a bad president? No. I haven't said any of these things.

I have said that his dishonesty on one issue showed us what his character was.

Your little quip at the end just shows you don't realize that on every presidents watch people die at their biding. Oh and wasn't Clinton that let Bin Laden get away the first time so he could go on to plan 9/11? That's okay you don't have to answer that one.

 

[midwestyankee]

There is a tape of LBJ on the phone with the President of the Hagar menswear company, ordering a pair of pants. He wants a little more material "between my nuts and my bunghole," because the last pair he bought were too tight.

To which Mr. Hagar says, "Yes Sir, Mr. President."

That's the piece that I linked above. It's hilarious.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The real issues remain the same from the time the Constitution was constructed till now: HOW MUCH GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR YOU? HOW MUCH LIBERTY IS GOVERNMENT WORTH TO YOU?

The bureaucrats now wanna tax your Whopper and make you join a gym.

 

[bronzeage]

The real issues remain the same from the time the Constitution was constructed till now: HOW MUCH GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR YOU? HOW MUCH LIBERTY IS GOVERNMENT WORTH TO YOU?

The bureaucrats now wanna tax your Whopper and make you join a gym.

You need to join a gym. Wouldn't hurt you a bit and it would reduce the burden you place on society.

 

[Stella_Omega]

First, I never said it made him a bad president, just a dishonest one. And do I think his having sex, which he denies yet everyone believes he did, while in office made him a bad president? No. I haven't said any of these things.

I have said that his dishonesty on one issue showed us what his character was.

Your little quip at the end just shows you don't realize that on every presidents watch people die at their biding. Oh and wasn't Clinton that let Bin Laden get away the first time so he could go on to plan 9/11? That's okay you don't have to answer that one.

But the question was never if he was a dishonest person, but why do people call him the worst president ever.

As a president, I don't think he was particularly dishonest.

Do you figure that letting Bin Laden get away is what makes him a bad president?

Stella, do you feel that this is where politics started to get really ugly? I’m starting to think that this is where the divorce happened (or maybe this is when I personally started to pay a little attention to what our political leaders were doing).

Mmm... maybe? Or maybe that was when it became perfectly obvious, I don't know. Gingrich really cultivated a balls-out style of rhetoric, and encouraged others to follow suit, and hate breeds hate-- hate televised breeds hate in the land of two-car garages.

 

[sr71plt]

Do you figure that letting Bin Laden get away is what makes him a bad president?

Be wery, wery careful in answering that, Zeb. It's a trick question.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Be wery, wery careful in answering that, Zeb. It's a trick question.

No, I promised that I wouldn't laugh at Zeb in this thread.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

But the question was never if he was a dishonest person, but why do people call him the worst president ever.

As a president, I don't think he was particularly dishonest.

Do you figure that letting Bin Laden get away is what makes him a bad president?

I never said I agreed with the statement, so why are you still harping on me about why I think he was a bad president? Even though he was among the good, the bad and the ugly. But I will answer your question. His belief in big government, in my opinion, is what makes him on of the bad ones. Who else do I think is a member of the same club? Bush II, Carter, Bush I, Johnson, Nixon. If you don't agree, tough. It's just my opinion. I don't have to justify it to anyone.

 

[midwestyankee]

I never said I agreed with the statement, so why are you still harping on me about why I think he was a bad president? Even though he was among the good, the bad and the ugly. But I will answer your question. His belief in big government, in my opinion, is what makes him on of the bad ones. Who else do I think is a member of the same club? Bush II, Carter, Bush I, Johnson, Nixon. If you don't agree, tough. It's just my opinion. I don't have to justify it to anyone.

Here's a question for you, Zeb: if a President believes in big government but takes no action to increase the size of the government, does his belief in and of itself make him a bad President? I ask because that's what you seem to be saying here.

 

[stephen55]

It's the same story up here.......

The real issues remain the same from the time the Constitution was constructed till now: HOW MUCH GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR YOU? HOW MUCH LIBERTY IS GOVERNMENT WORTH TO YOU?

The bureaucrats now wanna tax your Whopper and make you join a gym.

In Canada there's a tax on just about everything you buy. The feds charge GST (Goods and Services Tax). I think it's now 5%. The provinces charge PST (Provincial Sales Tax). It varies from province to province but is usually 5% to 7%, except in Alberta. They're rolling in oil and gas money, so they don't have to charge PST. Actually, I'm not sure if they ever did.

Several provinces are blending the two into HST (Harmonized Sales Tax). Lots of people are miffed because it will cover some things that weren't hit by GST or PST before. If the feds push it onto all the provinces the good folks out in Alberta will probably threaten to turn off the oil and gas wells and let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark.

We all gripe about taxes. With 5% GST and 5% PST, your $100.00 spiffy new shoes costs $110.00 and they don't last 10% longer. What we're fond of forgetting is that GST and PST pays for all kinds of things we take for granted, including our health care system. Taxes on gasoline pays for roads. Taxes on air travel pays for airports. Property taxes pays for schools.

So JBJ, you've hit the nail pretty much on the head. We all want some level of government services and don't want too much government intrusion. We all want our freedoms and liberty (yes ami, that includes me) but have to accept some loss of individual control in order to have some level of government.

Up here things aren't quite as fractioned as they are down there. The issue of US health care reform is a good example. What we in Canada accept as a reasonable government intrusion in return for no hassle health care, is causing more heat in the US than Al Gore's attitudes on global warming.

So, up here in the Great White North the bureaucrats already tax our Whoppers. So far, no one is forcing me to join a gym.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

What exactly did Clinton accomplish besides the 1993 tax increases that lost him Congress?

 

[rgraham666]

Mmm... maybe? Or maybe that was when it became perfectly obvious, I don't know. Gingrich really cultivated a balls-out style of rhetoric, and encouraged others to follow suit, and hate breeds hate-- hate televised breeds hate in the land of two-car garages.

Actually this sort of rhetoric began long before Gingrich.

I recommend the book Holy Terror. It covers how a faction of the Right in the U.S. started using modern communication technology to spread a message, a message of fear and anger.

Most important was direct mail. The important thing about direct mail is that it was difficult to challenge. Anything could be said in a direct mail and unless someone bought it to the attention of the people or organizations victimized these things couldn't be challenged. Many people got only the information this faction of the Right wanted and so these people became more fearful and angry. It's a form of information disease.

Gingrich was more the culmination of the process than its start.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Here's a question for you, Zeb: if a President believes in big government but takes no action to increase the size of the government, does his belief in and of itself make him a bad President? I ask because that's what you seem to be saying here.

Believing in big government means they also don't believe in the individual rights, so yes even if they don't grow government they are bad for the country, IMHO.

 

[midwestyankee]

Believing in big government means they also don't believe in the individual rights, so yes even if they don't grow government they are bad for the country, IMHO.

This seems like an awfully strong statement. Do you really believe that because a man believes that there is a role for the government to play in the health and welfare of its citizens that the man, by definition, does not believe in any of the individual rights listed in the Constitution?

I'm having a hard time imagining how this could possibly work. Surely it's not at all crazy for a man to believe that Social Security is a good thing but also believe that we have a right to free speech. Surely it's not at all crazy for a man to believe that the government's military ought to be enlarged and still believe that we have an individual right to bear arms.

Help me understand your thinking here, please.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I never said I agreed with the statement, so why are you still harping on me about why I think he was a bad president? Even though he was among the good, the bad and the ugly. But I will answer your question. His belief in big government, in my opinion, is what makes him on of the bad ones. Who else do I think is a member of the same club? Bush II, Carter, Bush I, Johnson, Nixon. If you don't agree, tough. It's just my opinion. I don't have to justify it to anyone.

Well, that's the actual answer to the question, so thank you.

Midwestyankee, this wasn't supposed to be a debate thread.

 

[midwestyankee]

Well, that's the actual answer to the question, so thank you.

Midwestyankee, this wasn't supposed to be a debate thread.

Fair enough. But I did think that it was a thread where one could ask questions of Republican-thinking people in a civil way and expect answers.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Fair enough. But I did think that it was a thread where one could ask questions of Republican-thinking people in a civil way and expect answers.

So far, only one identified Republican has answered- jeninflorida.

Zeb is one of them Libertarian types. We have more than our fair share of those.

 

[jeninflorida]

I don’t understand why most American’s want to lean more to socialism. We are modeling our healthcare after in my opinion 2nd rate nations.

In Canada there's a tax on just about everything you buy. The feds charge GST (Goods and Services Tax). I think it's now 5%. The provinces charge PST (Provincial Sales Tax). It varies from province to province but is usually 5% to 7%, except in Alberta. They're rolling in oil and gas money, so they don't have to charge PST. Actually, I'm not sure if 1they ever did.

Several provinces are blending the two into HST (Harmonized Sales Tax). Lots of people are miffed because it will cover some things that weren't hit by GST or PST before. If the feds push it onto all the provinces the good folks out in Alberta will probably threaten to turn off the oil and gas wells and let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark.

We all gripe about taxes. With 5% GST and 5% PST, your $100.00 spiffy new shoes costs $110.00 and they don't last 10% longer. What we're fond of forgetting is that GST and PST pays for all kinds of things we take for granted, including our health care system. Taxes on gasoline pays for roads. Taxes on air travel pays for airports. Property taxes pays for schools.

So JBJ, you've hit the nail pretty much on the head. We all want some level of government services and don't want too much government intrusion. We all want our freedoms and liberty (yes ami, that includes me) but have to accept some loss of individual control in order to have some level of government.

Up here things aren't quite as fractioned as they are down there. The issue of US health care reform is a good example. What we in Canada accept as a reasonable government intrusion in return for no hassle health care, is causing more heat in the US than Al Gore's attitudes on global warming.

So, up here in the Great White North the bureaucrats already tax our Whoppers. So far, no one is forcing me to join a gym.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I don’t understand why most American’s want to lean more to socialism. We are modeling our healthcare after in my opinion 2nd rate nations.

America is experiencing a process of socio-economic stratification. That is, social mobility is screeching to a halt as the roads are closed forever. So most Americans are looting, so to speak, to guarantee they get something before everything is gone. Its not socialism per se. Its simply looting.

 

[jeninflorida]

I don’t understand why most American’s want to lean more to socialism. We are modeling our healthcare after in my opinion 2nd rate nations.

But I also need to point out that my husband and I have a “Cadillac” healthcare plan...not bragging but this is where my personal point of reference on this issue comes from. I do believe that America need to do something about healthcare, and address the issues associated with attorneys.

 

[jeninflorida]

America is experiencing a process of socio-economic stratification. That is, social mobility is screeching to a halt as the roads are closed forever. So most Americans are looting, so to speak, to guarantee they get something before everything is gone. Its not socialism per se. Its simply looting.

Wish I had a magical crystal ball to see ten years into the future….or a hot tub that could travel through time…