Obamacare; Scheme & Deem & Subterfuge...

[amicus]

http://www.investors.com/newsandanalysis/article.aspx?id=506199

~~~

For beginners...over 300,000 doctors may resign if Obamacare becomes law.

Refusing to budge from the Ideology of the Far Left concerning Socialized Medicine in the US, Democrats appear ready to commit political suicide if they vote for the pending healthcare Bill.

Predictions are the Democrats will lose both the House and Senate this coming November and Obama will become a 'Lame-Duck' one term President after barely a year in office.

It is not unusual for the winning party to lose seats in an off-year election as the American Voting Public appears to prefer government in conflict with both Parties holding some power in either the Legislative or Executive Branch, but this off year election is shaping up to be cataclysmic not just in terms of Party power, but the far left ideology in the White House.

Predictions are that the budget crunching will be completed on Wednesday and a 72 hour period with the Bill posted on the Internet will enable a vote by Saturday.

Should be an interestng few days...



Amicus

 

[Huckleman2000]

If by "interesting" you mean that Limbaugh and Beck and Malkin and the rest will debase themselves with outrageous lies and attacks that will make no difference in passage of the plan, you're probably right. They've already gone after an 11 yr.old boy who lost his mother because she lost her health insurance.

 

[amicus]

By 'interesting', Huck, I implied that even with a majority in both the House and Senate and a Socialist occupying the Bully-Pulpit, the Democrats have failed to pass any substantial legislation of any kind.

Even as 80% of Broadcast and Print Journalism support the Democrats and Socialized Medicine, the small but vocal conservative forces in the nation have brought this administration to a stand-still.

Not that I ever expected you to acknowledge that.

Amicus

 

[TE999]

If this health care bill is going to be so all fired good for the country why is there so much trouble passing it? The Democrats control both houses and one of their own is the POTUS so what's the problem? It should have been steamrollered through by now.

Just wonderin'.

 

[Dragonlipz]

http://www.investors.com/newsandanalysis/article.aspx?id=506199

~~~

For beginners...over 300,000 doctors may resign if Obamacare becomes law.

Refusing to budge from the Ideology of the Far Left concerning Socialized Medicine in the US, Democrats appear ready to commit political suicide if they vote for the pending healthcare Bill.

Predictions are the Democrats will lose both the House and Senate this coming November and Obama will become a 'Lame-Duck' one term President after barely a year in office.

It is not unusual for the winning party to lose seats in an off-year election as the American Voting Public appears to prefer government in conflict with both Parties holding some power in either the Legislative or Executive Branch, but this off year election is shaping up to be cataclysmic not just in terms of Party power, but the far left ideology in the White House.

Predictions are that the budget crunching will be completed on Wednesday and a 72 hour period with the Bill posted on the Internet will enable a vote by Saturday.

Should be an interestng few days...



Amicus

You should worry, because Medicare will be the first to go.....by your predictions......I think that you've gotten too many freebies as it is and what the hell? Just go and do it quietly without disturbing the rest of us......

 

[Dragonlipz]

If this health care bill is going to be so all fired good for the country why is there so much trouble passing it? The Democrats control both houses and one of their own is the POTUS so what's the problem? It should have been steamrollered through by now.

Just wonderin'.

Don't participate, just ignore it, and it won't affect you....you don't need heathcare and besides, what good would it do you?

 

[amicus]

If this health care bill is going to be so all fired good for the country why is there so much trouble passing it? The Democrats control both houses and one of their own is the POTUS so what's the problem? It should have been steamrollered through by now.

Just wonderin'.

~~~

As I understand it, Tom, the Far Left contingent of Congress insists upon a 'single payer' aka Government in the Bill which will eventually lead to full socialized medicine.

Secondly the 'blue-dog' Democrats, the moderates who are opposed to Federal Funds paying for abortions, have thus far refused to support the House Bill which weakens the language and opens the way for abortions to be paid for by government medical plans.

There is also the cutting of 500 billion dollars from the Medicare funding that doesn't sit well, even with Democrats and the inevitable tax increases and rationing that will follow if an additional 30 million are given access to Medicare.

It truly is a very bad piece of legislation.

Amicus

 

[TE999]

~~~

As I understand it, Tom, the Far Left contingent of Congress insists upon a 'single payer' aka Government in the Bill which will eventually lead to full socialized medicine.

Secondly the 'blue-dog' Democrats, the moderates who are opposed to Federal Funds paying for abortions, have thus far refused to support the House Bill which weakens the language and opens the way for abortions to be paid for by government medical plans.

There is also the cutting of 500 billion dollars from the Medicare funding that doesn't sit well, even with Democrats and the inevitable tax increases and rationing that will follow if an additional 30 million are given access to Medicare.

It truly is a very bad piece of legislation.

Amicus

Indeed it is. When you try to please everyone, you please no one. Tweaking the current federal medical programs to accommodate additional eligible persons, aiding people in paying health insurance premiums and creating pools of uninsured people (including those with preexisting conditions) that could apply for insurance as a group would have made a lot more sense than this mares' nest.

This bill will either die a dogs' death or be cut to pieces by the courts and a new congress...either way it's doomed.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Indeed it is. When you try to please everyone, you please no one. Tweaking the current federal medical programs to accommodate additional eligible persons, aiding people in paying health insurance premiums and creating pools of uninsured people (including those with preexisting conditions) that could apply for insurance as a group would have made a lot more sense than this mares' nest.

This bill will either die a dogs' death or be cut to pieces by the courts and a new congress...either way it's doomed.

If so, I may very well die young for lack of preventative care.

*shrug* No biggie.

 

[amicus]

There are millions, perhaps a hundred million Americans who purchase their own insurance, medical, life, retirement, home, fire, either by themselves or through a company or group plan.

It is called individual responsibility.

You should check it out.

Amicus

 

[DeeZire]

There are millions, perhaps a hundred million Americans who purchase their own insurance, medical, life, retirement, home, fire, either by themselves or through a company or group plan.

It is called individual responsibility.

You should check it out.

Amicus

Add a pre-existing condition to your scenario, and "checking it out" is as far as you'll get.

 

[Boxlicker101]

~~~

As I understand it, Tom, the Far Left contingent of Congress insists upon a 'single payer' aka Government in the Bill which will eventually lead to full socialized medicine.

Secondly the 'blue-dog' Democrats, the moderates who are opposed to Federal Funds paying for abortions, have thus far refused to support the House Bill which weakens the language and opens the way for abortions to be paid for by government medical plans.

There is also the cutting of 500 billion dollars from the Medicare funding that doesn't sit well, even with Democrats and the inevitable tax increases and rationing that will follow if an additional 30 million are given access to Medicare.

It truly is a very bad piece of legislation.

Amicus

Oh, haven't you heard? The Big O says his plan will save money. Some people actually believe this, and I think their total is exactly the same as the number of people who believe in the tooth fairy.

ETA: I have heard something about eliminating payment for abortions from the public option. Since abortions are legal, under the Constitution as interpreted by SCOTUS, this omission would probably make it unconstitutional.

 

[amicus]

Add a pre-existing condition to your scenario, and "checking it out" is as far as you'll get.[/QUOTE]

~~~

I don't happen to believe in any form of God or Religion, thus, if 'fate' or nature deals you a card with a Down Syndrome Child or you develope that 'pre-existing' condition that requires treatment, you are pretty much on your own and you are left applying to charitable concerns for your needs.

I understand your basic philosophy all too well to imagine that you accept the above as an answer as your 'Utopian' vision of life serves the greater good at the sacrifice of the individual.

The horrible truth of the matter is that there are no 'pre existing' conditions in nations with socialized medicine; they just quietly die.

I read somewhere that 95% of all medical costs come in the final six months or year of life. The other truth you will have to dig for is that those patients in England and Canada simply do not receive the treatment and they too, quietly die.

It is your simple cost/benefit ratio that applies in any system of Statist medicine that dictates who gets treatment and who does not.

Amicus

 

[Stella_Omega]

There are millions, perhaps a hundred million Americans who purchase their own insurance, medical, life, retirement, home, fire, either by themselves or through a company or group plan.

It is called individual responsibility.

You should check it out.

Amicus

Sure, I could buy health insurance, or I could pay my rent for myself and my family. I can't do both.

 

[Guest]

I have government healthcare

I have government healthcare. It is one of my benefits as an active duty soldier. The program has a set of rules that is easy to understand and no one grumbles about whether your condition was preexisting or not, they just try to fix it. It comes out of my paycheck to the tune of about $75 a month for me and $100 for my wife. There is a dental option for her, though mine is included. It is absolutely all inclusive as far as medical care for me is concerned, and about 75% inclusive for my wife

She has a $3 co-pay for prescriptions, and for certain things (elective surgeries such as PRK or, unfortunately in-vitro fertilization) have to be done at the patient's expense with a partial recoupment at a later date.

It works slowly, but it does work. It is called Tri-care. If we could just model the proposed system after Tri-care, it would work very well. Most hospitals except Tri-care Prime of Tri-care Alt because of the plethora of veterans in our community.

It should be relatively easy to just pt people that are not currently insured under the Tri-care system and take their yearly dues out of their tax returns if they don't pay. It's not a perfect solution, but the rules are already mostly in place, there's no worries about who pays what and when, and you can allow people to opt out of it by signing a waiver when they register to vote.

It's just a thought.

 

[amicus]

Interesting perspective from South Korea. I too, when on active duty service had full medical and my family was included. And the Veterans Administration offers some benefits to former servicemen and women, I think burial services are included.

If it is a voluntary military service, I see no objections to providing such benefits to those who defend their nation.

The problem in the US stems from world war two and all the injured Vets and then from government unions whose benefits included health insurance and then large corporations who provided co-pay plans for employees.

The US is different from most Euro countries in that our population is over 300 million and most nations have a much smaller population.

Social Security and Medicare were put in place to provide services for that portion of society that government determined would not invest in such insurance programs unless it was mandated or forced.

It is difficult to communicate to non Americans, but this forced behavior is alien to the American way of life where individual responsibility carries the obligation of providing for ones self.

It has become more complicated as the traditional family structure has degenerated and support from a family structure is no longer effective.

The American way of life includes the concept of a small, limited and controlled government that acts only to protect our basic, innate rights of life, liberty and property and not act as the source to satisfy all needs.

I realize this is an alien concept to most and that most do not understand why government should not provide greater services to the population.

With each benefit provided by government, some small amount of personal, individual choice and liberty is lost.

It is not a new argument.

Amicus

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]It is difficult to communicate to non Americans, but this forced behavior is alien to the American way of life where individual responsibility carries the obligation of providing for ones self.

It has become more complicated as the traditional family structure has degenerated and support from a family structure is no longer effective.

The American way of life includes the concept of a small, limited and controlled government that acts only to protect our basic, innate rights of life, liberty and property and not act as the source to satisfy all needs.

I realize this is an alien concept to most and that most do not understand why government should not provide greater services to the population.

With each benefit provided by government, some small amount of personal, individual choice and liberty is lost.

It is not a new argument.

Amicus

It is not a new argument, but it is a specious one. Your nostalgia for The American Way of Life (tm) reflects a longing for some antebellum past that never existed as the free society you believe it did. Like Reagan's "shining city on a hill", it's a myth.

 

[Liar]

Refusing to budge from the Ideology of the Far Left concerning Socialized Medicine in the US, Democrats appear ready to commit political suicide if they vote for the pending healthcare Bill.

How come the sum of provisions in the current bill then are light years away from anything that could ever be called "Far Left"?

Because it's not. No way no how. You said it yourself. Those that passes for Far Left in America wants Single Payer. Which is not in the bill. The prople to the right of those folks, wants a Public Option instead. Which is not in the bill either.

And those who passes as "Far Left" in America aren't really that far left at all, globally speaking - I don't see anybody favoring a NHS type public health care system, for instance.

The individual mandate to buy insurance, is a Republican idea.

All this says nothing about the merits of the bill. I'm not talking about that. Just that it's in no way, shape or form a "Far Left" bill. A bloated monstrosity of bad Congress sausage, that won't work nearly as well as it's supporters claim? Perhaps. That's another discussion.

 

[amicus]

It is not a new argument, but it is a specious one. Your nostalgia for The American Way of Life (tm) reflects a longing for some antebellum past that never existed as the free society you believe it did. Like Reagan's "shining city on a hill", it's a myth.[/QUOTE]

~~~

It is the time of night for me and the morning for you that led me to expect your appearance.

A free society, the American dream is neither a myth nor a fantasy; and I have never claimed it existed at any time in the past.

What I have and do claim, is that the concept of human individual freedom first bore fruition here in America.

There have always been those like yourself, content to live in a semi-slave society and encouraging others to join in your docile contentedness.

It has been and is an exciting and amazing journey as science and technology have pulled aside the curtains of ignorance of the past and yet retained the framework of human individual freedom within our borders.

What is even more amazing is that our form of government, since world war two, has found fertile ground in more than a hundred other nations who pursue that self-same concept of human liberty.

However you define your vision of government, you are on the losing side as human freedom keeps gaining ground against the Statist mentality you so often express.

Long ago I used to mourn the corruption of good minds; I no longer do, I accept them and you as beyond reason and locked in belief, never to be released.

Pity.

Amicus

 

[Guest]

It is difficult to communicate to non Americans, but this forced behavior is alien to the American way of life where individual responsibility carries the obligation of providing for ones self.

i think you misunderstand me. I am not a "non-American" or, perhaps (hopefully), I misunderstand you.

I suggested using the Tri-care system that is already in place, and extending coverage automatically to everyone. Then, you could give the nay-sayers an "opt out" option and let everyone have their choice.

Also, I disagree with something that you said, and I believe that it forms a core pillar of your argument. You said:

With each benefit provided by government, some small amount of personal, individual choice and liberty is lost.

I think that you have it backwards. When the government provides these benefits because you already worked for them, then you have sacrificed the individual choice and liberty first, and been rewarded with the benefit.

When you get the benefit without having to work, it becomes a handout and there is no liberty, freedom or choice lost. I am not about "handouts". I want the people that get included in the overall health plan to pay for it. Even if it means that they get no tax refunds or what have you.

There are several of my friends that are considering starting up businesses around an idea that we have been kicking around. the concept is this:

You come work for us for 1 hour a day, 6 days a week. We will not pay you, but will pay your health care premiums. You will do menial labor or manual labor. The company makes its money by providing labor services to other companies (janitorial services, maintenance and repair services of the handyman type) at a certain cost. That money they receive goes to pay the workers' monthly health premiums. Under the new proposed health plan, I think it could possibly be a bright business.

 

[Liar]

If this health care bill is going to be so all fired good for the country why is there so much trouble passing it? The Democrats control both houses and one of their own is the POTUS so what's the problem? It should have been steamrollered through by now.

Just wonderin'.

Two reasons combined:

1. Senare Republicans are obstinate in opposition and use prodedural shennanigans to block anything and everything for political gain. They gamble that sabotaging process by filibustering everything and holding up process on other ways will reflect more poorly on the Democrats who can't get their agenda done than on the Republicans. This means the Democrats had to have all their ducks plus Lieberman in line to get anything passed. (What'll happen now with a 41 seat obstinate Repubican caucus is anyone's guess.)

2. Democrats are not very good ducks. Enough of them run around all over the place, and quack as much as they can for personal gain.

As if you didn't know this.

 

[amicus]

Well, hello, sgt_wiklund, since you are a new acquaintance to me, I welcome you to the forum and hope you will continue to offer ideas.

Not quite sure how to respond to your last and I am about to retire for the evening, it being 2:22 a.m. here on the west coast of the usa.

In my experience, a small business cannot afford to provide health care insurance to employees, even on a participatory basis. I am also of the old school, in that you are paid for the work you do, with cash and are free to use that income as you choose.

Larger businesses and Corporations, because they can purchase health insurance in volume and at a discount, may offer this benefit to their employees but should not be forced to.

My understanding of the Constitution of the United States and all the founding documents provides a concept of limited government specifically authorized to provide only certain services to the people and no others. Those rights withheld from the Federal Government are allocated to the States or to the Individual.

Everyone with an opinion on the 'proper' function of government seems to have a different concept of just what 'government' is; I prefer to remain within the framework of this Republic, the enumerated and guaranteed rights of the individual and the limited functions of government.

I bid you a pleasant evening....Korea...about 18 hours difference in time?

Amicus

 

[Liar]

You come work for us for 1 hour a day, 6 days a week. We will not pay you, but will pay your health care premiums. You will do menial labor or manual labor. The company makes its money by providing labor services to other companies (janitorial services, maintenance and repair services of the handyman type) at a certain cost. That money they receive goes to pay the workers' monthly health premiums. Under the new proposed health plan, I think it could possibly be a bright business.

That's an interresting one. I wonder if it would hold water legally, qas a company.

I've seen a similar idea elsewhere, a "non profit housing club" where people buy membership for a small, symbolic fee, and then donate a set amount of "pro bono" work hours to the club. For the money the club raises, they buy and run apartment houses that members can live in for cheap. Substitute housing for health insurance and it's pretty much the same thing.

Again, I don't know how that would work in the US. Might be seen as tax evasion or something. But I'm sure you can run it all by a lawyer.

 

[Guest]

Well, hello, sgt_wiklund, since you are a new acquaintance to me, I welcome you to the forum and hope you will continue to offer ideas.

Not quite sure how to respond to your last and I am about to retire for the evening, it being 2:22 a.m. here on the west coast of the usa.

In my experience, a small business cannot afford to provide health care insurance to employees, even on a participatory basis. I am also of the old school, in that you are paid for the work you do, with cash and are free to use that income as you choose.

Larger businesses and Corporations, because they can purchase health insurance in volume and at a discount, may offer this benefit to their employees but should not be forced to.

My understanding of the Constitution of the United States and all the founding documents provides a concept of limited government specifically authorized to provide only certain services to the people and no others. Those rights withheld from the Federal Government are allocated to the States or to the Individual.

Everyone with an opinion on the 'proper' function of government seems to have a different concept of just what 'government' is; I prefer to remain within the framework of this Republic, the enumerated and guaranteed rights of the individual and the limited functions of government.

I bid you a pleasant evening....Korea...about 18 hours difference in time?

Amicus

Yes, I understand the cost of providing healthcare to employees, but I am talking about paying premiums under the new health care reform (the one that is supposed to dramatically reduce costs). If the health care reform works, and your premium drops to say $100 a month (roughly what my wife's is on Tri-care, the model which I am using for government run healthcare), I could afford to pay your health insurance to the tune of that tiny amount if I was receiving a larger amount from another company for your services.

in other words, I farm you out to a school or small business in need of janitorial services for $200 a month. you work a grand total of maybe 12 hours. In your off time, on weekends, whatever. I DON'T PAY YOU, but actually pay the government your healthcare premiums in your name and pocket the difference.

It is all conjecture at this point.

my original question is this: If Tri-care is such a successful and tested model for government run health care, why don't we just expand the coverage to everyone, allow them to opt out if they want, and be done with it?

and, thank you for your kind welcome.

 

[LaRocha]

Obamacare has never included free health insurance. Under every plan I've seen you pay a monthly deductible, and you pay each time you visit a doctor, same as private insurance. People think government workers get free health insurance, they don't, it's just a slightly more affordable plan. With that said, the current plan they're trying to pass is embarrassing. My cable/internet/phone bill will be more than my insurance bill one of these months. Digital cable and high speed internet per household is probably greater than health coverage per household. Also, who cares what happens in the makeup of congress? Obama had a supermajority like four months ago and couldn't get shit done. He has a current majority and can't get watered down garbage pushed through. He sucks as much as Bush, he just does his sucking legally.