Story Discussion: 03 March 2010. "Salvation in the Sargasso Sea" by Dual_Triode

[Dual_Triode]

Story Discussion: 03 March 2010. "Salvation in the Sargasso Sea" by Dual_Triode

Hello and Greetings!

I want to thank the moderators and SDC members for welcoming a newcomer.

My third submission to Literotica is a short little romantic piece, Salvation in the Sargasso Sea. I am hoping that you will give it a quick read and let me know what you think. It is 5,700 words in length, or about 1.5 published pages.

My goal with this piece was to try writing a dialog-based story. After reading many critical comments offered at SDC and SF, I focused on telling the story with dialog and avoiding the "wall of words" syndrome. I ended up with a three act play.

The story is about the meeting and tentative attraction between a widower and a bisexual woman. Rock music and rock bands are a backdrop to the story telling, although the story's title is brought into focus through music in act two.

I debated publishing this story for fear of offending our GLBT readers. I am not a professional writer, and I didn't know if I could write something coherent from a bisexual POV. I decided I would try developing the relationship without resorting to "fixing" the bisexual protagonist. For me, it worked best to portray them both as tortured individuals.

Thank you in advance,
~Dual_Triode

 

[Dual_Triode]

Story Link

Here is the untagged link to the story: http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=463717

 

[Dual_Triode]

Author's Discussion Goals

Of course, anything goes, and please don't worry about offending me. I have thick skin and understand that I'm a beginner here.

There are a couple of areas that I struggled with:

1) Dialog alone cannot tell the whole story. People don't always say what they're thinking and conversational speech uses a limited vocabulary. If the author wants to peer into the mind of the character, or portray the scene with a larger vocabulary, then the narrator must help tell the story. Did I strike a good balance in this area?

2) Dialog tags. For the most part, I left them off when it was obvious who was speaking. If I wanted to make sure, or add commentary about how the character was speaking or gesturing, then the tag became necessary. Were there any ambiguities about who was speaking?

3) Pace and focus. At times, it seemed like I was rushing the story or getting distracted by electric guitars. I can do something about the former, but sadly, the latter is hopeless. With regards to focus, are there any guidelines about how the narrator should refer to the characters? You can use their first names exclusively, but that seems too rigid and doesn't flow well. You can always use he/she, but I tend to lose track after a while. I tried to strike a balance by using names when a new thought or scene began, and then switch to he/she when the focus was more intimate.

Dang! Writing is hard. I appreciate any feedback you can offer as I try to improve my writing skills.

Cheers!
~Dual_Triode

 

[jacks4u]

Well, it's been a couple days, and no one's commented yet - I suppose I'll start this one.

Dual,

First of all, I like your story, except one small area. I'll get to that later. I'm primarily an avid reader, but have a couple of marginal stories up here. So, I'll comment from a reader's prospective, and hope there's something you can put pen to paper about...

As I said, I liked your story. I think it's unique and well told. It's not necessarily what many folks come to literotica for.

In my own mind, it's not even particularly erotic, though there is sex in it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just means you'll miss out on something like 50% or more of the readers (I don't know the exact demographics of literotica readers, but IMO, a large percentage are looking for a stroke story.) I've seen poorly written stories with lots of explicit sex get better marks than some well written stories with more subdued sexual content. Me, I just like to read, and occasionally write. Like last night - I was reading your story, but when I went outside to smoke, I was reading Heinlein, an old sci-fi book I've had for years.

But I digress. I'll answer your questions:

1) Dialog...Did I strike a good balance in this area?

I thought you dialogue was fairly natural, and well done. It didn't seem strained, contrived, or un-natural to the characters to speak as each did, though in my mind they all sounded about the same. Let me explain: Just as different people sound different when you talk to them, so should different characters. But this is HARD to do! Just as ummm some hmm people ahh - pause or stutter a ummm - lot, still others can't say a fucking sentence without cursing, god damnit! And still others use big words, or idioms, ya know? those little things that distinguish people beyond the tone or timber of their voice. It really didn't detract from your story in the least, it's just something I noticed. But perhaps you'd intended it that way? Often times, people with similar backgrounds and life experiences talk in similar ways...​

2) Dialog tags... Were there any ambiguities about who was speaking?

If there were, I really didn't notice it. I did like how you worked references to the other parties in a conversation, in the dialogue - like this: "Jon, you've got to come down to the VFW tonight." So many people write a "he said, she said" story, and that sort of tagging ruins a good story - well done there. Some times, if a conversation is between only two people, an author <might> be able to dispense with tagging altogether, save for an occasional tag, to keep the reader in sync. Of course, this is only possible, because each new speaker starts a new paragraph. hmmm, now that I think about it, there was <one> place where *she* spoke in one paragraph, then also in the next - I had to re-read it, to make sure who was speaking.​

3) Pace and focus... are there any guidelines about how the narrator should refer to the characters?

I think you did fairly well in this regard, see #2 above... I know that it's a real turn off, to me any way, if the author uses too many "he said", "She said", type references, or repeats similar references too often. But then, so does repeating the same or similar words or phrases. I didn't notice either issue with your story.​

And now, for the moment you've been waiting for: I thought your sex scene was quite a let down - I can understand 'no sex since <spouse> died', and can account for a 'premature' ending. I can also understand a 'Friends with benefits' arrangement. But this seemed to me as though she was an extension of his hand, rather than a co-equal, getting pleasure at the same time. There was very little about how he felt, after, I'll assume, having not had any real sex in umm three years, was it? and She hadn't had , IIRC, sex in a while either. I would have expected more than:

"Oh God," Marla gasped as she felt him fill her little space.

...

"Ahhh!" Jon cried out as he exploded inside of her. "Oh my God, Marla. That feels so good."

"That was nice. Yeah, that felt really good," Marla said, standing and pulling her pants back up. "Next time, though, I get to come first."​

It was kind of a let down, - the whole story, 4500+ words, building up to that moment, but it was over with only: 'Oh, that felt so good" and "she gasped..."

Other than that one sector, I thought your story was good, well thought out, and skilfully written. And I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Thanks for sharing it with us, and for giving us a chance to comment.

Jacks

 

[Dual_Triode]

Thank You

Jacks,

Thank you for the kind and thoughtful feedback. Your comments get right to the heart of what I was hoping to hear. I guess we rocket scientists think alike.

I've gathered some thoughts into three main areas:

Sex, or lack there of...

The first draft of this story didn’t have any sex at all. After reconsideration, I decided to add the sex scene to create tension, not resolution. I wanted to build the reader’s anticipation, but leave them unfulfilled. So yes, the story is not really that erotic or sexually satisfying.

Having said that, I think I need to turn the heat up a little more. What I really want is for the sexual encounter to be conflicted, not ambivalent. Both of the protagonists have a lot of emotional baggage. Given the painful loss of his spouse, and her retreat into celibacy and asexuality, there little chance they could make a real connection with this first encounter. The sex, however, needs to be hot enough for them to want to try again, and for the reader to root for them.

I think I’m going to rework this section to improve the eroticism, heat up the sex, and dive more deeply into their state of mind.

Dialog and character portrayal

After reading your comments and some other feedback I've received, I can now see many ways to make sure the reader can identify the characters. Moving the tag into the dialog is one way I tried. For example:

“Jon, you’ve got to come down to the VFW tonight.”

instead of

“You’ve got to come down to the VFW tonight,” Andy pleaded.

I think this helps, but I may have overused this device. I can now see how to apply peculiar speech patterns and vocabulary to help identify characters. It turns out that my real-life prototype for Andy's character is a prime example of peculiarity: prone to bizarre and moronic outbursts.

As I think more deeply about this, I see that when we have conversations with people, we get all kinds of visual and auditory clues about their identity, not just their speech pattern and vocabulary. To translate some of this to the written page, it seems like I need to exaggerate some quirk or feature, almost turn them into a caricature, and let the reader fill in the missing pieces.

Where to go from here

At first, I wasn’t sure what to do with this story. The idea originated at the intersection of two unrelated events: the anniversary of my sister’s illness and untimely death, and a night of rock music at the VFW.

Sharon struggled with her sexual identity throughout her life, never really accepting bisexuality as a stable state of being. As her health worsened, she shared her story with me, but not with our elderly parents. I am now in possession of her personal journal.

The gaffe over the Desert Rose Band at the VFW is a true story. The musicians were all female as was the majority of the crowd. Even my rusty old gaydar could peg the orientation. I did, in fact, chat with the guitarist about her gear, but there were no sparks or scornful glares exchanged.

I think that I’m going to develop this story in subsequent chapters. So far, I have introduced the characters and set up the situation. There is ample dramatic ground that can be covered, plus a good deal of pent-up ‘demand’ to be satisfied.

Cheers!
~Dual_Triode

 

[_Lynn_]

Of course, anything goes, and please don't worry about offending me. I have thick skin and understand that I'm a beginner here.

There are a couple of areas that I struggled with:

1) Dialog alone cannot tell the whole story. People don't always say what they're thinking and conversational speech uses a limited vocabulary. If the author wants to peer into the mind of the character, or portray the scene with a larger vocabulary, then the narrator must help tell the story. Did I strike a good balance in this area?

2) Dialog tags. For the most part, I left them off when it was obvious who was speaking. If I wanted to make sure, or add commentary about how the character was speaking or gesturing, then the tag became necessary. Were there any ambiguities about who was speaking?

3) Pace and focus. At times, it seemed like I was rushing the story or getting distracted by electric guitars. I can do something about the former, but sadly, the latter is hopeless. With regards to focus, are there any guidelines about how the narrator should refer to the characters? You can use their first names exclusively, but that seems too rigid and doesn't flow well. You can always use he/she, but I tend to lose track after a while. I tried to strike a balance by using names when a new thought or scene began, and then switch to he/she when the focus was more intimate.

Dang! Writing is hard. I appreciate any feedback you can offer as I try to improve my writing skills.

Cheers!
~Dual_Triode

Dialogue tags: I didn't have trouble following the speakers for the most part. However, some of what you used are not tags. I went back and grabbed a few to show you here.

"They're ok, I guess," Andy shrugged. "I've heard better."

"Not in this crowd," Jon tossed his head towards the dance floor. "The parking lot is full of Subarus."

"She thinks you are," Jon nodded his head towards the table. "I think you're not completely straight."

"I don't think she's a dyke," Jon's voice turned gruff. "Don't be such a dickhead."

"Thanks for the gossip, Frank," Jon laughed, raising his glass.

I didn't get lost with the guitar and amp pieces. But the beginning was confusing. That it's a phone conversation isn't clear until Jon closes his phone.

Why was Andy pressing his case to get Jon out of the house? Nothing made sense or interested me to that point.

Marla giggled, laughed, and then snorted, covering her mouth in embarrassment.Why was she embarrassed? For the sounds? Or??

The above two examples are the type sentences that stop the flow for me. Instead of making me want to find out why they have me going back to see if I missed something.

I don't really learn much about any of the characters. Jon lost his wife and his job. He works on amps. But that's all I get. Marla went to Julliard. She's bisexual and plays in the band. And I learned less yet about Andy.

I think you could have made the piece better without the sex scene. Jon felt so strong about his wife he hadn't gone out, and didn't leave the house often. Yet he has sex with a woman he barely knows without it seeming to affect him. That doesn't fit to me.

There are several areas where this could have been expanded to make it smoother in my opinion.

If I didn't answer all your concerns, I'm sorry. But I hope there's something helpful in my rambling.

 

[jacks4u]

Jacks,

Thank you for the kind and thoughtful feedback. Your comments get right to the heart of what I was hoping to hear. I guess we rocket scientists think alike.

Dual,

No problem there, I enjoy it, and in some perverted way, try to learn, try to notice other people's mistakes, and file them away, so as to not do them myself. In this (SDC) I hope to better my writing skills, by a) getting in touch with my preferences as a reader, and b) chatting with others about the art of writing.

Dialog and character portrayal

After reading your comments and some other feedback I've received, I can now see many ways to make sure the reader can identify the characters. Moving the tag into the dialog is one way I tried. For example:

“Jon, you’ve got to come down to the VFW tonight.”

instead of

“You’ve got to come down to the VFW tonight,” Andy pleaded.

I think this helps, but I may have overused this device. I can now see how to apply peculiar speech patterns and vocabulary to help identify characters. It turns out that my real-life prototype for Andy's character is a prime example of peculiarity: prone to bizarre and moronic outbursts.

As I think more deeply about this, I see that when we have conversations with people, we get all kinds of visual and auditory clues about their identity, not just their speech pattern and vocabulary. To translate some of this to the written page, it seems like I need to exaggerate some quirk or feature, almost turn them into a caricature, and let the reader fill in the missing pieces.

Well, I think we can lump these two issues into one - let me explain: Often when we are having dialog, in real life, we use tags - I might ask my spouse something like "Pam, what's for dinner?" even if there's no one else in the house but the reverse is also true. I have two nephews, John and Pete, identical twins. I was at a dinner party with John, but wasn't sure if it was him or Pete. Nonetheless, I spent the whole night chatting with him, but never used his name even once The obvious conclusion as relates to this discussion, is that normal and natural dialog often contains tags. But when it doesn't, the author has to contrive some mechanism so that the reader knows who's saying what.

At the same time, normal and natural dialog doesn't always sound the same, as we've both pointed out. Idioms, repeated phrases, etc... are the norm, rather than the exception, in real life. In a work of fiction, those same idiosyncrasies tend to define a character in ways that mere words have a hard time defining. I'm not sure I know how to consistently get this right - It's almost like an author has to be playwright, actor and director all at once, and then put it all in print... I think this is surely where the 'art' is, and the crux of the author's job. Any moron can write 'he said...', 'she said...', 'he put his...', ''she moaned...'. It's breathing life into the characters, making each real enough to check their mail on a daily basis, that is the difference between 'yea, ok', and 'What an awesome story!'

Where to go from here

At first, I wasn’t sure what to do with this story. The idea originated at the intersection of two unrelated events: the anniversary of my sister’s illness and untimely death, and a night of rock music at the VFW.

Sharon struggled with her sexual identity throughout her life, never really accepting bisexuality as a stable state of being. As her health worsened, she shared her story with me, but not with our elderly parents. I am now in possession of her personal journal.

The gaffe over the Desert Rose Band at the VFW is a true story. The musicians were all female as was the majority of the crowd. Even my rusty old gaydar could peg the orientation. I did, in fact, chat with the guitarist about her gear, but there were no sparks or scornful glares exchanged.

I think that I’m going to develop this story in subsequent chapters. So far, I have introduced the characters and set up the situation. There is ample dramatic ground that can be covered, plus a good deal of pent-up ‘demand’ to be satisfied.

Cheers!
~Dual_Triode

I think your story has a lot of potential - perhaps hot, steamy back-stage sex, maybe, if he's inclined, a Ménage à trois, or... There's plenty of room, where ever you wish to go. sexually or otherwise. 'Friends with benefits' can cover a lot of ground.

As far as the Desert Rose Band goes, many good stories started as real life experiences - your mileage may vary.

I'm so sad to hear of your loss. My room mate died of stage 5 colon cancer two years ago, it was quite traumatic for everyone.

 

[Dual_Triode]

Thank You

MistressLynn,

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on my story. I do appreciate your criticism.

Dialogue tags: I didn't have trouble following the speakers for the most part. However, some of what you used are not tags. I went back and grabbed a few to show you here.

"They're ok, I guess," Andy shrugged. "I've heard better."

"Not in this crowd," Jon tossed his head towards the dance floor. "The parking lot is full of Subarus."

Grammatically speaking, since these are not dialog tags, should they be separate sentences or used in conjunction with a standard tag? For example:

"They're ok, I guess." Andy shrugged. "I've heard better."

or

"They're ok, I guess," Andy said, shrugging his shoulders. "I've heard better."

I think you could have made the piece better without the sex scene. Jon felt so strong about his wife he hadn't gone out, and didn't leave the house often. Yet he has sex with a woman he barely knows without it seeming to affect him. That doesn't fit to me.

A consensus is emerging that this section needs rework or removal, and I concur.

Cheers!
~Dual_Triode

 

[_Lynn_]

MistressLynn,

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on my story. I do appreciate your criticism.



Grammatically speaking, since these are not dialog tags, should they be separate sentences or used in conjunction with a standard tag? For example:

"They're ok, I guess." Andy shrugged. "I've heard better."

or

"They're ok, I guess," Andy said, shrugging his shoulders. "I've heard better."



A consensus is emerging that this section needs rework or removal, and I concur.

Cheers!
~Dual_Triode

Think about what you would do in that sequence. The action of shrugging your shoulders happens with the dialogue, right?

"They're OK, I guess, but I've heard better," Andy replied, shrugging his shoulders.

"They're OK, I guess," Andy replied, shrugging his shoulders. "But I've heard better."

Andy shrugged his shoulders, then realized Jon was still waiting for a reply. "They're OK, I guess. But I've heard better."

(It's OK or okay.)

I'm not fond of splitting the dialogue by putting the tag between parts of it, but that is an acceptable way. As a reader, I find it disrupts the flow too much.

The critiques from the SDC can make an author see their work with new eyes. Patterns and styles we didn't even realize we used are often simple for more seasoned authors to spot. Although an intimidating forum for some, there is much to be learned here. Kudos for posting your work.

 

[CharleyH]

First, I want to say I like what you are trying to accomplish (but I'm biased since I do love writers who experiment outside of their zone). You've got a great title btw. It has a very good ring. Nevertheless, there are some issues.

2) Dialog tags. For the most part, I left them off when it was obvious who was speaking. If I wanted to make sure, or add commentary about how the character was speaking or gesturing, then the tag became necessary. Were there any ambiguities about who was speaking?

There were no ambiguities, but this was a problem I had with the story right off the top. Too frequently, you repeat the names of the characters within the dialogue itself. It is not necessary to constantly reaffirm to the reader who is speaking. Not only do I feel that this slows the pace of the dialogue, but it also gives the impression that you, as the author, are trying to keep track of which character is saying what. It's particularly noticeable (and a turn off) at the very beginning.

"Hey Andy. What's up?"
"Is that you, Jon? I can barely hear you."
"Andy, step outside so I can hear you. That's better. Where the hell are you?"
"Jon, you've got to come down to the VFW tonight."
"I don't know, Andy. I really don't feel like drinking tonight."
"Jon, there's a band playing here tonight: The Desert Rose Band. You should come down and listen."
"The Desert Rose Band?" Jon wracked his brain. That name was so familiar.
"You mean Chris Hillman's band? Didn't they spin off from The Flying Burrito Brothers?"
"I don't know, Jon, they're still setting up. This place is filling up fast, you should come down soon." Andy pressed his case to get his friend out of the house.
"Alright, Andy. I'll come down in a little while. I have to finish putting this amp back together." Jon closed his phone and muttered to himself, "Andy, Andy."

Think of your own conversations and ask yourself, 'do I constantly repeat the person's name?' I am certain you will say no. Your dialogue should be similar. Here is an interesting link about the novella Vox by Nicholson Baker. Included are some excerpts from Baker's novel, which is, as far as I recall, almost entirely dialogue and a perfect example of it. The novel is well-worth a read . http://www.sheilaomalley.com/archives/008063.html

1) Dialog alone cannot tell the whole story. People don't always say what they're thinking and conversational speech uses a limited vocabulary. If the author wants to peer into the mind of the character, or portray the scene with a larger vocabulary, then the narrator must help tell the story. Did I strike a good balance in this area?

I didn't think you struck the balance right at first. I think your dialogue scenes could have definitely benefitted from descriptors, particularly the opening scene, reads dry. I felt you were trying to give the impression of such a happening night that Andy needed Jon to get his ass down to the VFW club. However, without subtle gestures and movements, the urgency of what a great night it is gets lost. You ease into a more balanced pace as the story moves along.

Still, the dialogue throughout doesn't always flow naturally to me and I do tend to prefer a natural flow. The beginning conversation is a fabulous example of this (really don't like your beginning), but there are little things throughout the story as well:
Example:
"Hello Marla, my name is Jon."

Apart from 1st year foreign language classes, does anyone ever really say this?

Think of the character, Jon. Is he this formal?

"Hi Marla, I'm Jon"
"Hey Marla, I'm Jon"
Would both be better choices IMO.

Some side notes: as a bisexual woman I am not offended by anything I read. I adore your references to specific bands and musicians like The Cranberries and John Paul Jones, and I'm not at all put off by specific music terms that I am not familiar with like Booger - they add depth to the characters. The sex scene is a little messy and way too short (I am not versed in the romance genre, though, so I cannot speak to this specifically), but it's the opening scene and the dialogue that really need to be worked on in my opinion.

Cheers.

 

[Dual_Triode]

You all are being quite kind with your criticism. For some reason, I was expecting harsher treatment. I guess it was just apprehension; fear of the unknown. I am encouraged that most of the defects are things that I can see how to fix. Hell, even as I type this post, I can see that my language is more conversational than the dialog I wrote. I'm learning more about creative writing here than I ever did from any of the English classes I skipped in school.

I read the excerpt from Baker's novel at the link CharleyH provided. At first glance, I noticed some grammatical techniques I had been trying to avoid: ellipses, CAPALIZATION, and run-on sentences. But then I actually read the excerpt. I was drawn in and mesmerized at the labyrinth that is Abby's mind: twisty little passages, all different. I didn't even notice the occasional "he said" tag, and completely accepted a 73 word run-on sentence. Her dialog was that natural and engaging. Plus, she's really into music and phone sex. What more could I ask for in a novel? Hello, Amazon?

As far as the sex scene in my story goes, I have to decide where I want to go. I either have to lose some of the melodrama and turn up the eroticism, or let them follow a slower therapeutic path. Either way, this story needs to bake a little longer.

Cheers!

 

[_Lynn_]

I either have to lose some of the melodrama and turn up the eroticism, or let them follow a slower therapeutic path. Either way, this story needs to bake a little longer.

Cheers!

Or you can write a new one, using what you've learned so far to help you. If you incorporate at least one new thing into each story you write, you'll be amazed at the differences when you compare this piece to them some day.

I know many people go back and fix a story, but I don't. It is whatever came out, and then I move on to something else. I prefer putting my time into fresh work. That's just me though. And we all know I'm not your normal writer.

 

[CharleyH]

You all are being quite kind with your criticism. For some reason, I was expecting harsher treatment. I guess it was just apprehension; fear of the unknown. I am encouraged that most of the defects are things that I can see how to fix. Hell, even as I type this post, I can see that my language is more conversational than the dialog I wrote. I'm learning more about creative writing here than I ever did from any of the English classes I skipped in school.

I read the excerpt from Baker's novel at the link CharleyH provided. At first glance, I noticed some grammatical techniques I had been trying to avoid: ellipses, CAPALIZATION, and run-on sentences. But then I actually read the excerpt. I was drawn in and mesmerized at the labyrinth that is Abby's mind: twisty little passages, all different. I didn't even notice the occasional "he said" tag, and completely accepted a 73 word run-on sentence. Her dialog was that natural and engaging. Plus, she's really into music and phone sex. What more could I ask for in a novel? Hello, Amazon?

As far as the sex scene in my story goes, I have to decide where I want to go. I either have to lose some of the melodrama and turn up the eroticism, or let them follow a slower therapeutic path. Either way, this story needs to bake a little longer.

Cheers!

LOL - I skipped a few English classes in my time, as well.

So happy you liked that link, Dual.

As much as I admire Mistress Lynn's ability to take what she's learned and move on to forge a new story out of it, once I'm onto something good I need to work and rework it until I am satisfied .

I really loved your references to musicians and bands and from another thread I see that you enjoy pop culture references, as much as I do. A lot of people around here (lol - I know from experience because I've adored dropping such things into my stories both on Lit published stories and anything I've posted to SDC, never ex nihilo, mind you - I use them to set a mood or a period in time or reflect a character) might tell you that pop culture references, specifically to certain songs or bands, will either date your work or be lost on many readers. Well, Bret Easton Ellis is an author who shamelessly drops pop culture references and is brilliant at writing dialogue scenes, not just between two people, but whole parties and bar scenes full of people. I learned a lot about how pop culture references, as well as a party or bar scenes, can really work reading his novel 'Glamorama'. If I get you, I think you will really enjoy that novel as well.

You've got a great germ of a story here. As said, romance is not my genre and I don't know how it works in love scenes. I write explicit erotica best, so if you ever need some feedback in that department, I'd be happy to help.

 

[Dual_Triode]

LOL - I skipped a few English classes in my time, as well.

So happy you liked that link, Dual.

As much as I admire Mistress Lynn's ability to take what she's learned and move on to forge a new story out of it, once I'm onto something good I need to work and rework it until I am satisfied .

I really loved your references to musicians and bands and from another thread I see that you enjoy pop culture references, as much as I do. A lot of people around here (lol - I know from experience because I've adored dropping such things into my stories both on Lit published stories and anything I've posted to SDC, never ex nihilo, mind you - I use them to set a mood or a period in time or reflect a character) might tell you that pop culture references, specifically to certain songs or bands, will either date your work or be lost on many readers. Well, Bret Easton Ellis is an author who shamelessly drops pop culture references and is brilliant at writing dialogue scenes, not just between two people, but whole parties and bar scenes full of people. I learned a lot about how pop culture references, as well as a party or bar scenes, can really work reading his novel 'Glamorama'. If I get you, I think you will really enjoy that novel as well.

You've got a great germ of a story here. As said, romance is not my genre and I don't know how it works in love scenes. I write explicit erotica best, so if you ever need some feedback in that department, I'd be happy to help.

I can understand MistressLynn's preference to pour her creativity into something new rather than rehash old news. I generally agree with her, but in this case, I need to fix up this story because I want to use it as a launch pad for another chapter.

Towards this end, I'm tweaking the opening telephone dialog along this line:

“Hey Andy. What’s up?”

The din of choppy, garbled voices crackled from the earpiece of Jon’s cell phone. Andy’s voice was barely audible.

“Is that you, Jon? I can barely hear you.”

“Step outside so I can hear you,” Jon shouted. “That’s better. Where the hell are you?”

“Dude, you gotta come down to the VFW tonight.”

“The VFW? I don’t know, I really don’t feel like drinking tonight.”

“There’s a band playing here tonight: The Desert Rose Band. Get down here and check ‘em out, come on.”

“The Desert Rose Band?” Jon wracked his brain. That name was so familiar. “You mean Chris Hillman’s band? Didn’t they spin off from The Flying Burrito Brothers?”

“I don’t know, maybe, they’re still setting up. This place is filling up fast, you gotta come down soon. You’ve been hiding in your workshop too much, it’s time to get out. There’s tons of women here tonight.”

“Tons? That sounds kind of scary. OK, I’ll come down in a little while. I have to finish putting this amp back together first.”

I've always enjoyed reading references to pop culture, too. Led Zeppelin and the Cranberries are well known, so I don't think it will confuse too many readers. Leo Kottke, on the other hand, is obscure, though crucial to the story. Including him is kind of like including Sylvia Plath, another more obscure, but brilliant poet.

On my commute home from work tonight (unlike my protagonist, I have been able to find another job ), I had an idea about how to heat up this story without losing all of the torment they're feeling. Maybe I'll PM you with the idea since explicit eroticism is your forte.

~Dual_Triode

 

[_Lynn_]

As much as I admire Mistress Lynn's ability to take what she's learned and move on to forge a new story out of it, once I'm onto something good I need to work and rework it until I am satisfied .

I can understand MistressLynn's preference to pour her creativity into something new rather than rehash old news. I generally agree with her, but in this case, I need to fix up this story because I want to use it as a launch pad for another chapter.

Towards this end, I'm tweaking the opening telephone dialog along this line:

~Dual_Triode

I have a piece that was about 20k words when I finished. I hated the ending. My beta reader hated it. I deleted well over 5k and re-worked parts throughout it to fit better. That deleted another couple thousand. I never fixed it enough to where I liked it. It sits in a folder--somewhere--on one of the computers.

And it's not the only one. If they don't work the first time, they 'feel' wrong to me and no matter what I do, I can't turn them into an acceptable piece.

But I did admit I'm not your normal writer.

 

[demandingandfun]

misstress lynn

Exactly the way I feel about my writting, when I'm not comfortable with it's devellopment it usually goes AWAY! Steven King, and, others claim that the "re=write" is MOST IMPORTANT.. NOT SO for me.
Yes as with all writers, I do go back, reread for punctuation, spelling,etc., but, DAMN, if it flows, it's always right, and, equally, when it kinks..bye, bye. No matter how I apply myself to what I feel is a great premiss...once in awhile it just won't go! Misstress, I enjoy your skills! Keep the hot tails coming!

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Triode,

Thanks for joining us.

With respect whether dialog is effective, consider this passage, which immediately follows the opening conversation:

Andy meant well, but he sure could be a pain sometimes. Maybe he was right, though. He had sequestered himself in his house after losing his job and Andy was trying to extricate him. He had learned to trust his best friend, the man who stood up with him when he married Lisa.

If the prior conversation had been more effective, would we have needed this moment of exposition? Perhaps instead of, or at least in addition to, discussing where to get the best phone reception and which band was which, Andy could have said something like, "How long has it been?" or "You can't be a hermit forever", which could have steered the conversation in a direction that would have made additional exposition unnecessary?

I'm not sure what this sentence adds:

Jon finished putting the control knobs on the vintage Fender amplifier.

Are we meant to understand Jon finishes what he starts? If so, would it have been worked better if the first thing we saw was Jon putting the knobs down before answering the phone? The way it is, I couldn't tell if this was character building or irrelevant detail. I know this is really getting nitpicky, but it is the opening.

Going upstairs to change clothes, he caught his reflection in the hallway mirror.

I've often thought we might have an entire thread on mirror scenes that work, and ones that don't. For me, it usually doesn't work if it feels like the author is just trying to divulge the character's appearance. Since it was brief and focused on what the character might imagine to be faults, I thought this one was ok. From a literary perspective, I liked the bit about the barfly repellent at the end. Though I wasn't sure exactly what he meant (I'm not sure I want to either!) I got the impression the character is a bit conceited. Is that what you meant to convey?

Even with the above issues, I still liked your opening. You showed us a character with issues we can relate to.

When Jon and Andy get together again, they continue to address one another by their names, which I had noticed earlier in their phone conversation. This can be effective, but if you think about it, how often do we use another's name when we are addressing them, and for what reason? With Jon and Andy, it just felt wrong.

Jon ignored Andy's hurt reaction.

Is there some way you might have shown me Andy's reaction here? I think that might have increased its potency.

Marla giggled, laughed, and then snorted, covering her mouth in embarrassment.

While counter intuitive, it's often best not to add a reason to a character's actions and expressions. In this case, it's also a trivial POV shift. And, even though it's not a quote, I think this sentence should be separate from the remainder of the paragraph, which clearly belongs to Jon.

Marla watched as Jon sipped his whiskey, noticing no ring on his left hand. He was masculine, yet reserved and polite. His long hair was well groomed and pulled back, and his pheromones triggered an old feeling she had long forgotten.

Unlike the explanation of the giggle, this is a non-trivial POV shift. I think it's a major blunder to be in her head anytime during this scene. Considering the length, this story should probably be all Jon's.

Andy's sudden departure from the club felt wrong. I couldn't believe he'd invited Jon out only to leave so soon, and I certainly didn't imagine he'd be leaving when he seemed to think his friend might be about to make a mistake. Or is this some guy thing I don't get?

I thought the sound man was far too helpful to believe. More important, did his conversation with Jon raise, or lessen, the overall tension?

The VFW seems an odd place to be filled with lesbians. Is that an intentional juxtaposition?

Later in Jon's basement, this little moment felt so odd:

"Uh, kind of, I guess. I used to work as an engineer at JPL in Pasadena, but we got tired of the L.A. area and eventually moved back here. I was working for HP, but I got laid off 6 months ago."

"Sorry to hear that. Are you looking for another job?"

I expect Marla to respond simply, "We?" I think that would have said ever so much.

He noticed that she wasn't wearing a bra, her nipples poking against her shirt as she reclined. She didn't seem to mind him watching her.

I'd like to know a little more about how he can tell that she doesn't seem to mind him watching?

I really liked that their first moment was a quickie- it felt right and was a refreshing change from the usual "best sex ever the first time" nonsense.

One last nit: except in certain situations, like dates or addresses, it's usually best to spell out numbers.
Studying her face, he guessed she was just past 40 years old.
I have some Fender amps that weigh 75 pounds.
My rule of thumb is to spell any number out unless it feels totally wrong to do so.

For the most part, I thought your dialog worked fine. You managed to reveal a great deal of information and make it feel like a natural conversation. How much of that information really needed to be revealed to make the story work is another question. Like you said, writing is hard, but would it be so enjoyable if it wasn't?

Thanks again for sharing your work with us.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[Dual_Triode]

Hi Penny,

Thank you for your thorough commentary. I really appreciate the help that you and the other SDC members are providing.

You brought up something I hadn't thought of:

Marla watched as Jon sipped his whiskey, noticing no ring on his left hand. He was masculine, yet reserved and polite. His long hair was well groomed and pulled back, and his pheromones triggered an old feeling she had long forgotten.

Unlike the explanation of the giggle, this is a non-trivial POV shift. I think it's a major blunder to be in her head anytime during this scene. Considering the length, this story should probably be all Jon's.

Is getting inside Marla's head during this scene adding confusion? In other words, is shifting the POV too rapidly a bad writing style? On a larger scale, if her internal POV is to be avoided by the narrator, does that imply exposition by dialog is the only way she can express herself?

The VFW seems an odd place to be filled with lesbians. Is that an intentional juxtaposition?

Lol, yes it is very odd, indeed. I didn't make this up, it actually happened. The whole Desert Rose Band gaffe and the all female rock band (whose name was alarmingly similar) was surreal and spawned this story idea.

"Uh, kind of, I guess. I used to work as an engineer at JPL in Pasadena, but we got tired of the L.A. area and eventually moved back here. I was working for HP, but I got laid off 6 months ago."

"Sorry to hear that. Are you looking for another job?"

I expect Marla to respond simply, "We?" I think that would have said ever so much.

You're absolutely right. This was an error on my part. I put "we" into his statement to tie him to late wife and open an avenue, but I forgot to have Marla follow up on the reference. D'oh!


I hope that I can contribute meaningfully to future discussions.

Cheers!
~Dual_Triode

 

[Penelope Street]

Is getting inside Marla's head during this scene adding confusion? In other words, is shifting the POV too rapidly a bad writing style? On a larger scale, if her internal POV is to be avoided by the narrator, does that imply exposition by dialog is the only way she can express herself?

Usually, we want to stick with one character per scene, showing the emotions and thoughts of others through there words and actions. For more on this, consider entering "head hopping" into a search site.

 

[CharleyH]

I can understand MistressLynn's preference to pour her creativity into something new rather than rehash old news. I generally agree with her, but in this case, I need to fix up this story because I want to use it as a launch pad for another chapter.

Towards this end, I'm tweaking the opening telephone dialog along this line:

I've always enjoyed reading references to pop culture, too. Led Zeppelin and the Cranberries are well known, so I don't think it will confuse too many readers. Leo Kottke, on the other hand, is obscure, though crucial to the story. Including him is kind of like including Sylvia Plath, another more obscure, but brilliant poet.

On my commute home from work tonight (unlike my protagonist, I have been able to find another job ), I had an idea about how to heat up this story without losing all of the torment they're feeling. Maybe I'll PM you with the idea since explicit eroticism is your forte.

~Dual_Triode

Well, I am very familiar with Sylvia Plath. *Chuckles* I always imagined she was a well-known poet. I like your re-write better, Dual. I still think there is something missing in this line:

“Step outside so I can hear you,” Jon shouted. “That’s better. Where the hell are you?”

If the bar is that busy, then he should be pushing or clawing as he makes his way out to talk on the phone more. Either that, or there needs to be a more dramatic pause between 'Step outside so I can hear you,' and 'That's better'.

 

[CharleyH]

I have a piece that was about 20k words when I finished. I hated the ending. My beta reader hated it. I deleted well over 5k and re-worked parts throughout it to fit better. That deleted another couple thousand. I never fixed it enough to where I liked it. It sits in a folder--somewhere--on one of the computers.

And it's not the only one. If they don't work the first time, they 'feel' wrong to me and no matter what I do, I can't turn them into an acceptable piece.

But I did admit I'm not your normal writer.

Normal is simply a state of mindlessness.

 

[Dual_Triode]

Well, I am very familiar with Sylvia Plath. *Chuckles* I always imagined she was a well-known poet. I like your re-write better, Dual. I still think there is something missing in this line:

“Step outside so I can hear you,” Jon shouted. “That’s better. Where the hell are you?”

If the bar is that busy, then he should be pushing or clawing as he makes his way out to talk on the phone more. Either that, or there needs to be a more dramatic pause between 'Step outside so I can hear you,' and 'That's better'.

Sylvia Plath is obscure only in my world of Dr. Seuss. Honestly, I didn't run across her work until just a few years ago. I lead a sheltered life.

Penny's suggested search for "head hopping" led me to the Author's Den and an online article by Suzanne Hartmann, "Top 10 Mistakes New Fiction Writers Make". I'm scoring damn near 100 percent.

Thanks for the help with the dialog. I'm beginning to see glimmers of hope for translating thoughts, spoken words, and deeds to the printed page.

Cheers!

 

[CharleyH]

Sylvia Plath is obscure only in my world of Dr. Seuss. Honestly, I didn't run across her work until just a few years ago. I lead a sheltered life.

Penny's suggested search for "head hopping" led me to the Author's Den and an online article by Suzanne Hartmann, "Top 10 Mistakes New Fiction Writers Make". I'm scoring damn near 100 percent.

Thanks for the help with the dialog. I'm beginning to see glimmers of hope for translating thoughts, spoken words, and deeds to the printed page.

Cheers!

I have faith in you!

 

[Penelope Street]

... the Author's Den and an online article by Suzanne Hartmann, "Top 10 Mistakes New Fiction Writers Make". I'm scoring damn near 100 percent.

They wouldn't be the top ten mistakes if every novice didn't score near one hundred percent.

 

[Dual_Triode]

Closing Comments

Just a quick note to report that I've made an edit to this story based on the discussion here and the Top Ten Mistakes. I don't want to detract from the current discussion, so no further response is requested.

I ended up adding another 1450 words to the story to fill in some gaps and try to make if flow more smoothly. I ditched the original sex scene in favor of another more erotic development. There are still some short episodic scenes and some participial phrases, but hopefully none are precariously dangling.

I think the stage is now set for another chapter. Many thanks to all the commentators. This has been a very educational experience.

Cheers!
~Dual_Triode