Feedback, editing and giving a hand

[elfin_odalisque]

What do we all expect from Story Feedback?

I know I get seriously annoyed with Scouries attempts to bully the audience here. But what do new writers want to get from advertising their stories on this thread?

Are you looking for professional literary editing, strict copy editing or just a tad of help and support as tadpoles turn into (beautiful) frogs.

I have lots of personal opinions - which I will share with you in time - but can we have a civilized debate on what we want SF to offer.

sr, an author, is dismissive of the help this forum gives. Do you agree?

It would be nice to define what writers (and future writers) expect Story Feedback to be.

 

[LittleRedHen]

As a newbie who recently posted to this forum, I personally was looking for a general opinion of what worked in my previous stories, and what didn't, so that while writing my third story I could include more of the stuff that did work, and less of what people disliked in my previous work.
At the end of the day, personal opinion is just that - personal - but if a few people all say "THIS part didn't work", then I know that that's something I need to re-jig.
So not so much strict copy editing, after all, everyone's writing style is a wee bit different, but a second or third pair of eyes over a story helps to give an idea of what works for a reader.

 

[sr71plt]

sr, an author, is dismissive of the help this forum gives.

My, you just keep carping away at me, don't you?

I don't dismiss any help this forum gives. I do dismiss comments that aren't helpful to a writer. It's not really my fault that your comments sometimes fall into the latter category.

It seems to bother you a lot, though.

 

[_Lynn_]

What do we all expect from Story Feedback?

I know I get seriously annoyed with Scouries attempts to bully the audience here. But what do new writers want to get from advertising their stories on this thread?

Are you looking for professional literary editing, strict copy editing or just a tad of help and support as tadpoles turn into (beautiful) frogs.

I have lots of personal opinions - which I will share with you in time - but can we have a civilized debate on what we want SF to offer.

sr, an author, is dismissive of the help this forum gives. Do you agree?

It would be nice to define what writers (and future writers) expect Story Feedback to be.

I should have known there would be a dig in this even before I read it.

 

[Mrtouf]

It helps to have an outside perspective. Making mistakes is part of the writing process but why go five thousand words down the wrong track, when a few sentences from a someone else could save you valuable time to write more?

What authors don't want is unhelpful bickering on their feedback threads. Not every bit of feedback is going to be helpful either, however you have to hope that unhelpful feedback is going to stand out clearly when compared to the helpful feedback.

 

[sr71plt]

you have to hope that unhelpful feedback is going to stand out clearly when compared to the helpful feedback.

Sounds hopeful, but, in fact, a neophyte writer will, more often than not, not be able to separate helpful feedback from the unhelpful. Shockingly enough, many of them don't even seem capable or interested in researching those giving them advice to the extent they can here. They succumb to the Internet world idiocy of taking each poster as of equal value in advice just by posting. Which, of course, is nonsense.

 

[_Lynn_]

It helps to have an outside perspective. Making mistakes is part of the writing process but why go five thousand words down the wrong track, when a few sentences from a someone else could save you valuable time to write more?

What authors don't want is unhelpful bickering on their feedback threads. Not every bit of feedback is going to be helpful either, however you have to hope that unhelpful feedback is going to stand out clearly when compared to the helpful feedback.

Why go five thousand words down the wrong track? Because I think one way we learn to write is by writing, even if it is 'bad' in the beginning. Having someone tell us what to do can be helpful, but what's wrong with research or practice? Sure, picking up tips from others helped me, but I sent lots of words down the wrong track first.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Lynn, sure there was a reason for starting this thread, but your reply and the reaction proved how important this place is. Sure, I have a big problem about how sr has poisoned the waters here with his vitriol but he shot himself in the foot by quoting serious literary comments on a story of yours. That is what we miss on this forum.

He never does that here - he just drives people away with his approach.

We need to suppport burgeoning writers, not drown them in arrogant stuff.

Surely SF is a kind of self-help group that doesn't need the 'have you seen now much I've earned crap to put you in your place' approach.

Whether I'm good or bad, I would like to help new writers.

 

[sr71plt]

At least I don't drive them down the wrong paths with dumb, uninformed analysis.

Bad advice is a whole lot worse than no advice at all.

And of course example of success in doing what is being queried is a bunch better than no--or none for years--demonstrated writing in that area at all. Don't be so dumb about that. You just want cheap validation.

Just can't stop backbiting in your obsessions, can you, Elfin? How about being constructive and going off and writing a story for Lit. one of these years. "Show," not "tell."

Oh, and talk about drowning folks in arrogant stuff. Can't be any more arrogant than making sweeping judgments about the erotica writing of others when you aren't writing any erotica yourself.

 

[Mrtouf]

You may have a lot of stories under your belt, but in my opinion your people skills could use some improvement.

It's all very well to gallivant all over the forums pointing out how unqualified someone is to provide feedback but in doing so, you come off as a tad bit arrogant and so people don't see your message as much as they see you the messenger.

I don't think that's what you want because when people don't like the message at least they have read and understood it. When they don't like whomever presents it, it won't matter how well-thought it is, all that they will be looking for is some way to discredit what you're saying.

You can convey your inestimable wisdom without being antagonistic. I suggest you give it a try.

 

[Darkniciad]

*Chuckle* Yeah, SR can be abrasive -- especially if he's posting "tongue-in-cheek" Sarcasm and subtle humor aren't exactly easy to convey on the internet, and it's quite easy to take things in a much harsher fashion than originally intended.

That's also not to say that he doesn't post to purposely drive home a point without any intention of diplomacy sometimes.

The fact is that he has a lot of very valid points, even if it's hard not to get pissed off at the delivery. I've modified they way I comment on stories here ( when I actually find time ) based upon some of his observations.

We have a tendency to do exactly what everyone is griping at SR about, giving "better than you" advice that's one-dimensional.

"Never give breast sizes or penis size in a story"

"Second person is too hard to do well. Try third person instead."

"Don't use phonetic screams like Ooooohhhhhh gooooodddddd! because its tacky."

As SR often says, there are many types of readers on the site, and the very things that turn you ( and many commenters ) off may be exactly what someone else is looking for. It's giving hard suggestions without leaving any leeway that gets under SRs skin a lot.

"A lot of readers seem to find breast and penis size tacky, so it's something you might avoid in favor of descriptive terms instead. Also good practice for writing descriptively. Doing it this way also lets the reader form their own picture without forced dimensions that might not fit their own fantasy vision -- which may be putting themselves into a role. If the reader is a C-Cup and your heroine is stated as a Double-D... On the other hand, if you simply describe her as having large, beautiful breasts, the reader may be able to better identify."

That's generally how I tackle the inches and cup size thing nowadays. It's not a hard and fast "rule" but instead a guideline with some reasons why. It doesn't scream "You're wrong! Stop doing that!" quite so much, and accounts for the fact that some ( very few, in my experience ) actually want those police descriptions of characters.

If the author prefers to write that way, they do have a readership out there for it. They enjoy it, some readers enjoy it, and everybody wins.

But, I still caution against it, because the best of my experience tells me that the majority of readers are against it.

It's probably not even intentional, but a lot of people commenting on stories tend to quote "rules" that don't exist, rather than saying why they don't like something, or citing experience with the readership that suggests that something isn't well received.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. SR still gets on my damn nerves at times. Doesn't mean that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He has practical real world print publishing experience and editing experience, extensive erotica experience in both writing and editing...

You get the picture.

Take a moment, take a breath, try to overlook the sometimes acidic tone ( whether intentional or mistakenly percieved ) and look for the good advice to be found when SR disagrees with you.

It doesn't mean you have to agree with him, but you don't have to dismiss him out of hand either (especially in an acidic manner). Doing so does a disservice to the new authors wandering in here for advice, and creates an environment just as unsavory as the one He Who Shall Not Be Named is trying to slime this forum section with.

Pardon my spelling. I don't feel like spell-checking that whole thing *laugh*

 

[_Lynn_]

Excellent points, and I will admit I'm guilty of giving the short answers at times too.

Finding time to both read a story and offer feedback isn't always easy. No excuse, just the way it is.

I find that it's been difficult for me to give feedback without having it turn into mostly editing suggestions. And then I sound critical. And arrogant. Which isn't the intent.

As for sr. . . I've learned a lot from his posts. I'm thankful he shares some of his knowledge with us.

 

[sr71plt]

You may have a lot of stories under your belt, but in my opinion your people skills could use some improvement.

It's all very well to gallivant all over the forums pointing out how unqualified someone is to provide feedback but in doing so, you come off as a tad bit arrogant and so people don't see your message as much as they see you the messenger.

I don't think that's what you want because when people don't like the message at least they have read and understood it. When they don't like whomever presents it, it won't matter how well-thought it is, all that they will be looking for is some way to discredit what you're saying.

You can convey your inestimable wisdom without being antagonistic. I suggest you give it a try.

Perhaps if I post this often enough, the logic will seep in. The Internet chat room concept that the post of every poster in an analytical discussion is equally valid is a myth. It's nonsense. The people behind the posts don't lose their comparative expertise on the analytical discussion just because everyone has equal opportunity to post on the Internet. What is put in an Internet post is only as valid as the comparative knowledge and exertise of the person doing the posting. All posters are not equal in this knowledge and expertise.

Conversely, a high percentage of posters on the Internet use the myth of equal validity to push their nonsense and lack of expertise. It's the great leveler, and it's nonsense--and these posters are just seeking cheap validation.

Those who really want to develop their writing here will do what they can to validate the source behind the postings. And when it comes to giving advice on writing erotica, I don't think it is remotely difficult to check out the validity of most of the posters to this thread.

And most often when a poster is called arrogant in an Internet discussion on analytical issues, this too is a false "Internet leveling" ploy, and the person being called arrogant is quite often the experienced person floating above all of the mythical, uninformed nattering.

In reviewing this thread and your postings to it, Mrtouf, it looks pretty obvious to me that you are the one who is being nasty and rude to me. My last posting to you didn't go after you at all. I think it just stated a basic truth.

 

[Epmd607]

Lynn, sure there was a reason for starting this thread, but your reply and the reaction proved how important this place is. Sure, I have a big problem about how sr has poisoned the waters here with his vitriol but he shot himself in the foot by quoting serious literary comments on a story of yours. That is what we miss on this forum.

He never does that here - he just drives people away with his approach.

We need to suppport burgeoning writers, not drown them in arrogant stuff.

Surely SF is a kind of self-help group that doesn't need the 'have you seen now much I've earned crap to put you in your place' approach.

Whether I'm good or bad, I would like to help new writers.

SF isn't a self-help group, story discussion circle and story ideas are for hand holding, and editor's forum is for those looking for an editor. SF is just about getting views and opinions on stories. I don't want people posting unfinished stories here and asking for help. If someone has a story on their submissions page they should post a link and give a brief overview so we can decide if we want to read and give them feedback.

 

[adamzapple]

Just to say what I think, I've been coming here for a while, but SF has never struck me as the kind of place I'd like to post a story and ask for feedback. Literotica never struck me as the kind of place to go for that kind of help.

Perhaps you do get that kind of help here but a new writer would somehow have to learn to read between the lines of any comments they received. Some people would rather say something mean than something helpful just because it's what they do.

Most of the requests for feedback I've seen appear to come from people looking for a pat on the back for their latest story. Either that, or they're hunting for more votes. (I don't think the voting counts for anything. As an indication of how well a story is written the votes are practically worthless.)

SF has always seemed a bit hit and miss to me. You might be lucky and get a response from someone who genuinely cares and actually knows what they're talking about, but a request for feedback posted here is just as likely to be ignored or attract nothing but negative replies.

I think there should be another section for newbie writers who genuinely want help to improve, but you'd probably get the same problem. There's a lack of any organised approach to providing feedback. And you'd probably still attract the trolls who take pleasure in giving bad feedback just because they get some kind of kick out of it.

Also, it takes a long time to give a story the attention it may deserve, then sit and find helpful ways to improve it or suggest alternatives, etc, etc. It's not the easiest thing in the world to do.

I agree with some of the posts on this thread, and I disagree with some others, but which ones I'm keeping to myself.

 

[sr71plt]

Yep, Adam, SF is primarily taken up with writers who want to plug their stories and hope that someone will offer to put their brilliant prose on bookshelves and also by those who want to pretend they have the ability and a right to a crown to tell others how to write erotica without either putting in the effort to learn how to do that well or even to actually write any erotica of their own. (And many of the post readers are gullible enough to be taken in by them, so it's a cheap, popular activity.)

And it's an OK place for those who realize what each is here for.

Those who really want good, useful feedback on their writing will read the stories here, pick out authors whose writing they wish to emulate, and then contact those folks directly for help and a critical read--off line and not as part of some advertising or ego self-stroke activity.

 

[CWatson]

What do we all expect from Story Feedback?

People not having feuds all over feedback threads.

Come on, you guys. Grow up.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not pursuing a feud. I'm just stating and restating a position each time my name is invoked in a negative context here. (Research before you make pat statements, CWatson--you've still got egg on your face in posting that Jenny is an editor. By her admission, she doesn't write erotica, let alone edit it.)

I will continue, though, to comment, as I see necessary, to protect a poster from being pulled down a path of uninformed advice and idiotic sweeping generalization. I'm not the one here who thinks writing development is an Internet game.

Or perhaps is this just a ploy to make me let Elfin and Jenny just keep initiating crapping on me and continue with their "we'll tell you how to write erotica even though we won't deomonstrate either that we write it or know our ass from our navel about writing erotica" ego-boosting game? You can forget that.

 

[adamzapple]

For what it's worth from my limited experience of other writing groups, I don't think new writers looking for feedback or critique, whatever you want to call it, are overly concerned with the qualifications of the person replying to their posts. Other than those already mentioned who are looking for a pat on the back, most are content to have their story read and commented on. I mean, that's a big deal to a lot of people, having someone actually read what they've written.

Obviously, some people are more adept, qualified, knowledgeable, or whatever than others. Or some may have more tact or patience than others, but I don't think new writers coming here for help, at least initially, have the least interest in searching through pages and pages of links to discover who is most likely to give them the best advice.

The genuine ones, those who are really looking to improve, are just happy to know someone is reading their work and taking the time to comment and give them a few pointers. With that in mind I think everyone's views are valid. If it's an in-depth critique of the story, or just a simple, 'it worked for me', reply, I think that's all that a lot of new writers are looking for.

Encouragement, is the thing that matters. Helping each other, if we're inclined to do it. At least, that's the way I see it.

 

[sr71plt]

For what it's worth from my limited experience of other writing groups, I don't think new writers looking for feedback or critique, whatever you want to call it, are overly concerned with the qualifications of the person replying to their posts. Other than those already mentioned who are looking for a pat on the back, most are content to have their story read and commented on. I mean, that's a big deal to a lot of people, having someone actually read what they've written.

Sure, and the general reader response here of "I liked it/didn't like it because . . ." is just fine and is helpful to the writer. It's giving personal responses of readers. Where it goes over the line is when it gets instructive asserting bullshit dogma, and when it goes into "everyone does/should/never" and "all good erotica does . . ." is when the shit is beginning to pile up on the thread--especially when done by a shitter just in it for the ego boost and the fun of slapping someone else around.

 

[CWatson]

Well, no; I wouldn't necessarily say you're pursuing it. But you're not un-pursuing it either. And the same goes for the other two.

Jenny, and elfin, and sr: when some person insults you, you can let it go. It takes two people to have a fight. Someone can run at me on the street, punch me, kick me, hurt me, even kill me--and if I never lifted a hand in violence, if I just kept walking, we still didn't have a fight. Obviously, I'm now dead, so maybe I should've fought; sometimes it's a better idea to lift a hand in violence. But is this one of those times? Really?

Or is this a time when you can just keep walking?

 

[sr71plt]

When I see guidance given on here that I think is idiotic, I will say so--regardless of the silly Internet games anyone else is playing. Is that clear enough for you?

The out-of-the-blue carping, not related to a direct disagreement on substantive guidance on a specific story request, has been by Elfin and Jenny. When they carp, I will respond if I wish to. I hope that is clear enough to you--and them--too.

 

[Mrtouf]

Regardless of who's starting it, responding to putdowns tit-for-tat does not help to put your points across. I understand if you don't want to take advice from some new guy whom you don't know very well, however the intention was and still is to advise and not to admininster a verbal splash of cold water.

I agree with CWatson. The more time you spend fighting and bickering publicly on these forums, the less time you have for everything else (in other words the good stuff). Time may be infinite, but we all somehow seem to run out of it. At the very least approach this like a pragmatic general; don't fight every day on several fronts when fighting on one front will do. Try to avoid the need for threads like these which invariably result in other people joining in when you didn't want them to.


I'm not questioning the fact that sometimes, the advice that writers get may not be well-thought or useful. That's true irrespective of how advice is received, be it in person or here on a forum.

If you yourself can better advise a writer, you don't have to negate any other advice they have received. You could let the quality of your advice speak for itself. If you really feel strongly about it, tell the writer in a PM or by e-mail and you may be pleasantly surprised to find that some of them agree with your sentiments.

People can get better at giving advice because there's someone looming close by, ready to ridicule what they have to write, so they think more carefully about what they do write. Or they can also get better because they see someone do it better and think 'Hey! I should have thought of that!' and maybe try to think about why it is better. They realise their mistakes on their own and their future advice is better informed or they stick to advising on things that they're more familiar with.

There is merit in both approaches, but sticking with one alone doesn't always get the result you're hoping for. Realistically, what is the result you're hoping for?

 

[sr71plt]

Why are you continuing it?

 

[_Lynn_]

Why are you continuing it?

Looks like a 'discussion' to me.