When is NO really NO?

[Bustymagoo]

My friend and I were discussing this, and for some reason, I thought of all the lovely advice you give.

My friend (let's call her Jenny) is in a Relationship with a master, and I would have to say they are a great match. Except on one issue.
Her Master (let's call him M) is very into anal play, and while she has softened her boundries on tongue/fingers, she is absolutly firm on NO when it comes to anal sex.
But M claims it is her duty to do whatever pleases him, even if ts not her liking. Her point is she has emotional connections to her reasoning, but feels torn between her hard boundry, and her duties to him.
So the question is; when is no really no?

My ten cents: I have never been into doing things for my partner that are absolute NOs, though I will explore if it is more of a fear than a hard line. If my M respected our relationship, he would realize the limits of his power, and respect and care for my feelings on any sexual issues we have.

Again, this isn't a "naw, it sounds icky" for her, due to her past, it is emotionally painful, scary, and in her mind, bringing old scars up to even think of anal at this time.

(ps no disrespect to any who enjoy anal activities )

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

My friend and I were discussing this, and for some reason, I thought of all the lovely advice you give.

My friend (let's call her Jenny) is in a Relationship with a master, and I would have to say they are a great match. Except on one issue.
Her Master (let's call him M) is very into anal play, and while she has softened her boundries on tongue/fingers, she is absolutly firm on NO when it comes to anal sex.
But M claims it is her duty to do whatever pleases him, even if ts not her liking. Her point is she has emotional connections to her reasoning, but feels torn between her hard boundry, and her duties to him.
So the question is; when is no really no?

My ten cents: I have never been into doing things for my partner that are absolute NOs, though I will explore if it is more of a fear than a hard line. If my M respected our relationship, he would realize the limits of his power, and respect and care for my feelings on any sexual issues we have.

Again, this isn't a "naw, it sounds icky" for her, due to her past, it is emotionally painful, scary, and in her mind, bringing old scars up to even think of anal at this time.

(ps no disrespect to any who enjoy anal activities )

Hmmm minefield.

If it's a hard limit, then he should wait for her to be ready. If anything, he should be helping her address these fears and issues in a healthy way.

And she needs to work out if her need to please outweights her fears or not. Or if she's even holding onto those fears as a way of avoiding confronting an issue head on.

But no would really be no if she safeworded. Or punched him in the nuts.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

There needs to be communication going on....

I know that for myself, without knowing J's specific reasoning, it sounds like there is the potential for all hell to break loose.

My suggestion for the two would be a whole lotta communication.

M has to be careful there, becuase you can psychologically break the toy and that is normally a very bad situation.

 

[00Syd]

Does she have a safeword? I know that every M/s relationship is different in that some do and some don't.

 

[rosco rathbone]

This is where patience and guile and skill at manipulation come in. You just keep chipping away, then one day you are riding her rectum, using her pigtails like reins, slapping her ass and saying "now who owns the anus, bitch?"

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

This is where patience and guile and skill at manipulation come in. You just keep chipping away, then one day you are riding her rectum, using her pigtails like reins, slapping her ass and saying "now who owns the anus, bitch?"

*Civilized brain: No means no. Tell her to talk to him: if he won't respect her limits, tell her to dump the motherfucker.


*Reptile brain: Fuck you. Me want manipulation pigtail assfuck. Give me now.


-----

 

[rosco rathbone]

*Civilized brain: No means no. Tell her to talk to him: if he won't respect her limits, tell her to dump the motherfucker.


*Reptile brain: Me want manipulation pigtail assfuck. Give me now.


-----

What "No" means to me is "Must prove that I can't be denied, even if it takes years".

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

What "No" means to me is "Must prove that I can't be denied, even if it takes years".

That's why I want you in the same battalion when we storm the General Board at sunrise.

 

[graceanne]

That's why I want you in the same battalion when we storm the General Board at sunrise.

*spew*

 

[your_vice]

I think it's immature and selfish of him to decide that having anal sex should be part of her pleasing him. He knows there are emotional issues attached to this and yet he's throwing out the whiny, manipulative, BDSM equivalent of 'if you loved me you'd do it.' BDSM requires a great degree of trust and communication. If she can't trust him to respect her limits then he's probably not the best partner for her. This is a pre-stated hard limit, which to me means she should not have to safeword. If it comes to that, he's broken her trust.

 

[ownedsubgal]

is she this man's slave or his submissive? the answer to that question makes all the difference for me in this.

if she is his slave, then "no" is really not a viable option for her, imo. if anal intercourse is something that important to him, she should begin learning to accept that it will be something she has to bear for him.

if she is his submissive, yet it's an activity he desires very much...then either he can attempt gently seducing or guiding her to engage in anal, but if those attempts fail he needs to accept that it simply cannot and will not happen with her, and is that one thing more important to him than their relationship?

 

[JMohegan]

My friend and I were discussing this, and for some reason, I thought of all the lovely advice you give.

My friend (let's call her Jenny) is in a Relationship with a master, and I would have to say they are a great match. Except on one issue.
Her Master (let's call him M) is very into anal play, and while she has softened her boundries on tongue/fingers, she is absolutly firm on NO when it comes to anal sex.
But M claims it is her duty to do whatever pleases him, even if ts not her liking. Her point is she has emotional connections to her reasoning, but feels torn between her hard boundry, and her duties to him.
So the question is; when is no really no?

My ten cents: I have never been into doing things for my partner that are absolute NOs, though I will explore if it is more of a fear than a hard line. If my M respected our relationship, he would realize the limits of his power, and respect and care for my feelings on any sexual issues we have.

Again, this isn't a "naw, it sounds icky" for her, due to her past, it is emotionally painful, scary, and in her mind, bringing old scars up to even think of anal at this time.

(ps no disrespect to any who enjoy anal activities )

I've never been into the "you can do whatever you want to me, as long as it's what I want you to do to me" style of D/s.

However, I'm also not into wasting time building trust in a relationship, only to have it shattered by hastiness or lack of judgment on my part. And of course I am thoroughly uninterested in incarceration.

So my answer on this would be similar to Rosco's. If it pertains to an activity that I find desirable, I see "no" as the beginning of a process.

 

[ketalia]

That's why I want you in the same battalion when we storm the General Board at sunrise.

Rats! Another swallow of Maunakoa Dark Roast wasted in my nose! Oh the Humanity!

 

[rosco rathbone]

I see "no" as the beginning of a process.

You have such a more gentlemanly way than me of putting things.

 

[ketalia]

My friend and I were discussing this, and for some reason, I thought of all the lovely advice you give.

My friend (let's call her Jenny) is in a Relationship with a master, and I would have to say they are a great match. Except on one issue.
Her Master (let's call him M) is very into anal play, and while she has softened her boundries on tongue/fingers, she is absolutly firm on NO when it comes to anal sex.
But M claims it is her duty to do whatever pleases him, even if ts not her liking. Her point is she has emotional connections to her reasoning, but feels torn between her hard boundry, and her duties to him.
So the question is; when is no really no?

My ten cents: I have never been into doing things for my partner that are absolute NOs, though I will explore if it is more of a fear than a hard line. If my M respected our relationship, he would realize the limits of his power, and respect and care for my feelings on any sexual issues we have.

Again, this isn't a "naw, it sounds icky" for her, due to her past, it is emotionally painful, scary, and in her mind, bringing old scars up to even think of anal at this time.

(ps no disrespect to any who enjoy anal activities )

My take: she's already told him that it's a hard limit and an emotional mine field for her. Unless he's willing and able to put her back together when she breaks, he needs back off. ("Willing" doesn't count if he's not "able.")If this is so important to him that he can't back down, they need to stop and talk about this.

Personally, I've broken off a relationship over a similar issue. Not anal sex, but he insisted on something that was an absolute hard limit for me. When he proceeded to try to sneak it in, I no longer trusted him and broke it off. That being said, I've also done things that didn't necessarily turn me on for Someone.

 

[JMohegan]

You have such a more gentlemanly way than me of putting things.

Ha. What's funny to me here is that I once said the exact same thing to a female, in person, and her response was: "Oh my god. That's chilling."

It's very difficult for me to express in words how much the concept of overcoming genuine reluctance/refusal turns me on. This is THE essence of the vulnerability-prompts-the-predator thing we were talking about on the other thread.

But I really can't explain the process any better than you already did. Patience, guile, skill at manipulation, will not be denied. That's exactly it.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Ha. What's funny to me here is that I once said the exact same thing to a female, in person, and her response was: "Oh my god. That's chilling."

It's very difficult for me to express in words how much the concept of overcoming genuine reluctance/refusal turns me on. This is THE essence of the vulnerability-prompts-the-predator thing we were talking about on the other thread.

But I really can't explain the process any better than you already did. Patience, guile, skill at manipulation, will not be denied. That's exactly it.

A lot of young doms hit a serious "no" and it throws them for a loop. "What do you mean 'no'?? You aren't submissive!"

Wiser heads just smile, come up with a face-saving change of topic and begin laying siege plans.

 

[LearningSub]

deleted

 

[JMohegan]

A lot of young doms hit a serious "no" and it throws them for a loop. "What do you mean 'no'?? You aren't submissive!"

Wiser heads just smile, come up with a face-saving change of topic and begin laying siege plans.

How the heck did this happen? When did naturally aggressive, control-minded young males stop embracing the "guy knows what he wants, guy employs god-given skills and persistence to make it happen" model, and let themselves get sucked into an artificial world of checklists and labels and stylized expectations?

I really do wonder about this. And sometimes I think the entire realm of cultural Bee Dee Ess Emm was created to emasculate the very people whose "power" it purports to celebrate.

 

[rosco rathbone]

How the heck did this happen? When did naturally aggressive, control-minded young males stop embracing the "guy knows what he wants, guy employs god-given skills and persistence to make it happen" model, and let themselves get sucked into an artificial world of checklists and labels and stylized expectations?

I really do wonder about this. And sometimes I think the entire realm of cultural Bee Dee Ess Emm was created to emasculate the very people whose "power" it purports to celebrate.

My theory is somewhat similar. We've got normally controlling (as basic male tendency, not "perversity") young men taking their cues, due to the recent hegemony of the internet, from a culture that was basically started by people who have a hard time with interpersonal skills. The nerds now leading the normals you might call it.

 

[JMohegan]

My theory is somewhat similar. We've got normally controlling (as basic male tendency, not "perversity") young men taking their cues, due to the recent hegemony of the internet, from a culture that was basically started by people who have a hard time with interpersonal skills. The nerds now leading the normals you might call it.

Well, Jesus. On the one hand, I think it's fair to ask just how control-minded and aggressive they really are, if they're taking so many "cues" in this fashion.

On the other hand, it's also fair to point out that I came of age pre-Internet, and therefore have no real conception of the depth of its influence or pressure. Maybe I would have turned into a "make sure she fills out a checklist, and go read the Library!!!" guy too, had I been born in a different era.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Well, Jesus. On the one hand, I think it's fair to ask just how control-minded and aggressive they really are, if they're taking so many "cues" in this fashion.

On the other hand, it's also fair to point out that I came of age pre-Internet, and therefore have no real conception of the depth of its influence or pressure. Maybe I would have turned into a "make sure she fills out a checklist, and go read the Library!!!" guy too, had I been born in a different era.

Keep in mind that everywhere else in culture, home, school, TV, movies, kids are being bombarded with the idea that the only acceptable model for a relationship is "equal", in other words a nagging, superior and sarcastic female and a sheepish, henpecked male.

 

[JMohegan]

Keep in mind that everywhere else in culture, home, school, TV, movies, kids are being bombarded with the idea that the only acceptable model for a relationship is "equal", in other words a nagging, superior and sarcastic female and a sheepish, henpecked male.

Oh, good point.

 

[intothewoods]

Ha. What's funny to me here is that I once said the exact same thing to a female, in person, and her response was: "Oh my god. That's chilling."

It's very difficult for me to express in words how much the concept of overcoming genuine reluctance/refusal turns me on. This is THE essence of the vulnerability-prompts-the-predator thing we were talking about on the other thread.

But I really can't explain the process any better than you already did. Patience, guile, skill at manipulation, will not be denied. That's exactly it.

A lot of young doms hit a serious "no" and it throws them for a loop. "What do you mean 'no'?? You aren't submissive!"

Wiser heads just smile, come up with a face-saving change of topic and begin laying siege plans.

Well, assuming the woman is capable of making her own decisions, how is this more suspect than, say, deriving pleasure from any kind of success? If you're honest and dealing with an adult woman, I don't see the big deal.

And in the case of a relationship, D/s or not, unless the person has some huge trauma around a particular act and has made it clear that that act can never ever be considered, I think everything is fair game. It's a relationship. Relationships evolve. Terms are renegotiated.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

It's a relationship. Relationships evolve. Terms are renegotiated.

This is alarmingly mature. Stop it.