There Really Are Death Panels.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

In March Obama is cutting money to cardiologists and other chronic care specialists 21%; at the same time he's raising the pay of general practitioners and family MDs 8%. This is for Medicaid and Medicare recipients.

Apparently Obama is the death panel.

 

[trysail]

If government is going to pay for it ( meaning those of us who fund the government ), healthcare is going to become either a Giffen good ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good ) or one nearly identical to it.

Demand for healthcare is infinite; supply is limited.

Healthcare is, therefore, going to require rationing of one form or another. That is an indisputable fact. There are too many people who, through ignorance, wishful thinking or willful denial, ignore the fact.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yep. The old-poor will be tossed overboard, and the old-affluent have money to pay for healthcare.

I'm starting a new story I call LIONS & HYENAS, and its about how the government (hyenas) screws with citizen-taxpayers.

 

[Pure]

note to try

tryHealthcare is, therefore, going to require rationing of one form or another.
===

what a silly statement. sounds panicked.

healthcare is already rationed by the HMOs--cigna, kaiser, aetna, humana-- and the "market'.

indeed every insurance company, since it pays out, and the amt of payout is subtracting from profit, is rationing, that is, controlling payout. the simplest means is the denial of claims; there is also stalling, forcing one to appeal, etc.

'death panels' are already here: the claims controllers at the above companies; when further claims are denied, when coverage is modified and you need the dough for life saving treatment, death ensues.

the directors at aetna, cigna, etc. are no different from the directors at AIG and Citibank. the 'bottom line' rules.

===

jbj The old-poor will be tossed overboard,

brilliant! what a change is coming: the old and poor, instead of their luxury accomodations and Hawaiian vacations, their ability to get free treatment at the best Swiss clinics, are now, under "socialism", to be 'tossed overboard'. and i forgot, their guns will be seized as well.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

tryHealthcare is, therefore, going to require rationing of one form or another.
===

what a silly statement. sounds panicked.

healthcare is already rationed by the HMOs--cigna, kaiser, aetna, humana-- and the "market'.

indeed every insurance company, since it pays out, and the amt of payout is subtracting from profit, is rationing, that is, controlling payout. the simplest means is the denial of claims; there is also stalling, forcing one to appeal, etc.

'death panels' are already here: the claims controllers at the above companies; when further claims are denied, when coverage is modified and you need the dough for life saving treatment, death ensues.

the directors at aetna, cigna, etc. are no different from the directors at AIG and Citibank. the 'bottom line' rules.

===

jbj The old-poor will be tossed overboard,

brilliant! what a change is coming: the old and poor, instead of their luxury accomodations and Hawaiian vacations, their ability to get free treatment at the best Swiss clinics, are now, under "socialism", to be 'tossed overboard'. and i forgot, their guns will be seized as well.

So, you agree. We're making progress.

 

[Stella_Omega]

you're right!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news...lth-insurance-companies-are-death-panels.html.

 

[Maid of Marvels]

I have met the Death Panels and they are us...

Cuts have been ongoing, but the fun stuff is just starting. Say goodbye to more denial of "preventative" care.

Here in NJ, my claim for ongoing diabetic medication has been denied recently but don't worry folks, if my kidneys fail, I'm covered for dialysis through my HMO. They'll also help me to get rid of any rotting limbs and might even provide a wheelchair and prosthetics as needed.

So what's next? I already met and will not be returning to the "doctor" they assigned me (not an MD by the way) who was wearing sandals, gloves and a mask and who didn't touch me even though I was there for a physical. I have cooties or sumpin. He also wasn't interested in knowing how high my blood sugar levels were despite my saying they are now out of control. Oh, and did I mention bibles on every counter in the exam room?

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm whining, but I just have to talk about the irony here. No one wants to help folks in certain predicaments (ie nottherich), but they are helping to disallow preventative and ongoing care for people who have medical problems beyond their control; many of whom have NO access to medical care whether it's good or bad.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Well, there's one sure cure for a depleted Medicare and Social Security Funds, eliminate the recipients and the problem goes away by itself.

Hitler showed the world how to do it 80 years ago.

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]Hitler showed the world how to do it 80 years ago.

Geez. JBJ Godwin's himself.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

It makes perfect sense; squash the geezers and end of problem.

 

[DeeZire]

I read somewhere that over 50% of Medicare dollars are spent in the last 6 months of life. If I'm in a hospital, ready to die, why in the world would I want to prolong the death process? If those with unlimited financial resources choose to piss away their money prolonging life by a month or two, that's great. However, does it make sense to take money out of a limited pot and spend it on prolonging a doomed person's life when that money could go to preventative care while people are still healthy?

I know the answer: it's better to pretend we have unlimited resources and talk about "pulling the plug on granny."

 

[TE999]

All this hoopla about how it's going to be so much better when the government controls health care is wishful thinking carried to a ridiculous extreme. When all is said and done the bottom line is what counts. The only difference is that the government will be denying you care not an insurance company.

The for-profit health care insurers are out to (horrors!) make a profit. Hello, it's a business. The chronically and terminally ill cost too much to care for and eat into the profit margin. The shareholders don't like that.

The government on the other hand neither toils nor spins but depends on taxes to provide services. It's assumed they will become the insurer/provider of last resort for said chronically/ terminally ill, not to mention the elderly who are living longer thanks to our existing health care system and will need critical care sooner or later.

Since the young and middle aged pay the bulk of the taxes, the cost of health care falls on their shoulders. As costs for government health care rise, more taxes will be taken from them and they will have less disposable income. If they're relatively healthy they will soon become tired of being bled dry to keep everybody else who either won't or can't work healthy for no good reason.

Altruism, humanitarian feelings, compassion and guilt only go so far as motivators to continue to pay increased taxes for health care. They will either elect pols who promise to hold costs and taxes down or will find ways to evade taxes. Sure, there will always be the 'rich bastards' everyone envies and hates to pay increasingly heavy taxes, but they'll find ways around the burden too.

Increasing taxation to expand government largess is a sure way to drive business' away, increase unemployment , nullify creativity, destroy incentive and generally wreck the economy, or at least have it stagnate. People decide it's foolish to work if they're going to see the fruits of their labors taken and given to someone else who did nothing to earn it.

There will always be 'rationing' of health care. It's just a matter of who's doing it.

 

[trysail]

Over the course of my Lit experience, I have rediscovered and have become resigned to the fact that it is essentially pointless to attempt to explain how the world works to people who— evidently— have no experience of it and possess no understanding of economics, insurance, accounting, mathematics, limits, budgets or any other constraints.

People who believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy and "the kindness of strangers" are simply uneducable with respect to any concept that is at odds with their belief that Uncle Sugardaddy owes them.

They don't "get it;" they never did "get it; and they never will "get it." They will believe in perpetual motion until the day the merry-go-round stops— and, as surely as night follows day— it will stop, for the simplest of reasons:

Something that can't go on forever won't.​

Trying to explain that fact to the vacuous is akin to addressing a stone.

 

[mikey2much]

One system serving everybody, rich or poor.

We need a system ran by the government, a system where doctors were working for the government, where the hospital is owned by the government, where the drug companies worked on government contracts to deliver drugs to the patients. We need to take ‘profit’ out of health care.

If Europe can provide health cre for it people then I believe that we should be able to copy what is working there. The truth is that while we can do this, we won't. We as a people don't care enough about 'Americans' Our fellow citzens to foot the bill.

It is nothing to be proud of.

 

[DeeZire]

....Trying to explain that fact to the vacuous is akin to addressing a stone.

in hopes that I am not addressing a stone with this question, what's your solution to the healthcare crisis in this country, Trysail?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

All this hoopla about how it's going to be so much better when the government controls health care is wishful thinking carried to a ridiculous extreme. When all is said and done the bottom line is what counts. The only difference is that the government will be denying you care not an insurance company.

The for-profit health care insurers are out to (horrors!) make a profit. Hello, it's a business. The chronically and terminally ill cost too much to care for and eat into the profit margin. The shareholders don't like that.

The government on the other hand neither toils nor spins but depends on taxes to provide services. It's assumed they will become the insurer/provider of last resort for said chronically/ terminally ill, not to mention the elderly who are living longer thanks to our existing health care system and will need critical care sooner or later.

Since the young and middle aged pay the bulk of the taxes, the cost of health care falls on their shoulders. As costs for government health care rise, more taxes will be taken from them and they will have less disposable income. If they're relatively healthy they will soon become tired of being bled dry to keep everybody else who either won't or can't work healthy for no good reason.

Altruism, humanitarian feelings, compassion and guilt only go so far as motivators to continue to pay increased taxes for health care. They will either elect pols who promise to hold costs and taxes down or will find ways to evade taxes. Sure, there will always be the 'rich bastards' everyone envies and hates to pay increasingly heavy taxes, but they'll find ways around the burden too.

Increasing taxation to expand government largess is a sure way to drive business' away, increase unemployment , nullify creativity, destroy incentive and generally wreck the economy, or at least have it stagnate. People decide it's foolish to work if they're going to see the fruits of their labors taken and given to someone else who did nothing to earn it.

There will always be 'rationing' of health care. It's just a matter of who's doing it.

Youre correct. Virtually every society abandons their old and young when they cost too much to care for. The old, of course, are duped into paying Old Age taxes for social security and medicare, which the politicians immediately spend. So it makes all the sense in the world to kill the geezers and reduce the financial burden.

The US is on the hook for something like 60 Trillion Dollars owed to seniors.

 

[xssve]

Presumably, this indicates a shift to preventative medicine: the medical industry as it is thrives on watching people stuff their faces and swill booze until they go into cardiac arrhythmia, then do a bypass.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Presumably, this indicates a shift to preventative medicine: the medical industry as it is thrives on watching people stuff their faces and swill booze until they go into cardiac arrhythmia, then do a bypass.

Youre right; there's no money in preventive care. I mean, imagine the money and carnage we'd save if we executed DUIs! But they create great wealth for hospitals and lawyers and government treasury.

 

[spake759]

We need a system ran by the government, a system where doctors were working for the government, where the hospital is owned by the government, where the drug companies worked on government contracts to deliver drugs to the patients. We need to take ‘profit’ out of health care.

If Europe can provide health cre for it people then I believe that we should be able to copy what is working there. The truth is that while we can do this, we won't. We as a people don't care enough about 'Americans' Our fellow citzens to foot the bill.

It is nothing to be proud of.

Uh... no.

The people who 'matter' in Europe COME HERE for their healthcare. why do you think when the italian prime minister needed to be treated for cancer he came here. Or how other high ranking Europeans RUN to the US for their healthcare when they get sick. The leaders in Europe BEGGED Obama NOT to impose European style healthcare on America, because european survival rates when it comes to things like cancer is abysmal when compared to the United States.

I get my healthcare from the VA. you have to make doctor appointments a minimum of THREE MONTHS ahead of schedule. Heaven forbid needing to see a doctor thanks to being sick, they just tell you to go to the ER. I've needed a refill on my pain meds for almost a month, i've been playing phone tag with the damn automated pharmacy phonelines trying to get them to get ahold of my doctor to reproscribe the methadone and oxycodone that helps me to get past the damn pain form all the metal in my legs when they where reattached. SOMETHING that I wouldn't have to worry about if I had been in Europe and needed the emergency care after they had been cut off.

So beleive me. We do NOT want what they have there. Because I've lived with it. My grandmother in law was diagnosed with breast cancer last year, and they wouldn't even remove the tumors because she was a smoker, and they felt she was 'too old' to have a decent quality of life for surgeries to save her life. Instead they've just been giving her pills.

Ain't that something perfect huh?

 

[trysail]

in hopes that I am not addressing a stone with this question, what's your solution to the healthcare crisis in this country, Trysail?

The Cult of Hope
by H.L. Mencken From Prejudices: Second Series, 1920, pp. 211-218

Of all the sentimental errors that reign and rage in this incomparable Republic, the worst is that which confuses the function of criticism, whether aesthetic, political or social, with the function of reform. Almost invariably it takes the form of a protest: “The fellow condemns without offering anything better. Why tear down without building up?” So snivel the sweet ones: so wags the national tongue. The messianic delusion becomes a sort of universal murrain. It is impossible to get an audience for an idea that is not "constructive"—i.e., that is not glib, and uplifting, and full of hope, and hence capable of tickling the emotions by leaping the intermediate barrier of intelligence.

In this protest and demand, of course, there is nothing but the babbling of men who mistake their feelings for thoughts. The truth is that criticism, if it were confined to the proposing of alternative schemes, would quickly cease to have any force or utility at all, for in the overwhelming majority of instances no alternative scheme of any intelligibility is imaginable, and the whole object of the critical process is to demonstrate it. The poet, if the victim is a poet, is simply one as bare of gifts as a herring is of fur: no conceivable suggestion will ever make him write actual poetry. And the plan of reform, in politics, sociology or what not, is simply beyond the pale of reason; no change in it or improvement of it will ever make it acheive the impossible. Here, precisely, is what is the matter with most of the notions that go floating about the country, particularly in the field of governmental reform. The trouble with them is not only that they won’t and don’t work; the trouble with them, more importantly, is that the thing they propose to accomplish is intrinsically, or at all events most probably, beyond accomplishment. That is to say, the problem they are ostensibly designed to solve is a problem that is insoluble. To tackle them with a proof of that insolubility, or even with a colorable argument of it, is sound criticism; to tackle them with another solution that is quite as bad, or even worse, is to pick the pocket of one knocked down by an automobile.

Unluckily, it is difficult for the American mind to grasp the concept of insolubility. Thousands of poor dolts keep on trying to square the circle; other thousands keep pegging away at perpetual motion. The number of persons so afflicted is far greater than the records of the Patent Office show, for beyond the circle of frankly insane enterprise there lie circles of more and more plausible enterprise, and finally we come to a circle which embraces the great majority of human beings. These are the optimists and chronic hopers of the world, the believers in men, ideas and things. It is the settled habit of such folk to give ear to whatever is comforting; it is their settled faith that whatever is desirable will come to pass. A caressing confidence—but one, unfortunately, that is not borne out by human experience. The fact is that some of the things that men and women have desired most ardently for thousands of years are not nearer realization today than they were in the time of Rameses, and that there is not the slightest reason for believing that they will lose their coyness on any near tomorrow. Plans for hurrying them on have been tried since the beginning; plans for forcing them overnight are in copious and antagonistic operation today; and yet they continue to hold off and elude us, and the chances are that they will keep on holding off and eluding us until the angels get tired of the show, and the whole earth is set off like a gigantic bomb, or drowned, like a sick cat, between two buckets...

 

[xssve]

in hopes that I am not addressing a stone with this question, what's your solution to the healthcare crisis in this country, Trysail?

Trysail often has difficulty with specifics.

The for-profit health care insurers are out to (horrors!) make a profit. Hello, it's a business. The chronically and terminally ill cost too much to care for and eat into the profit margin. The shareholders don't like that.

Well there's your debate - is healthcare about healthcare or is it about keeping stockholders happy?

Presumably, a business provides a service for a profit, there is nothing sanctified about profit itself, nobody is entitled to it, and if somebody else can provide the same service at a lower cost, it's all the same to the consumer whether it's a private insurer or a public option - taxes or premiums, it's all money, no free rides.

In fact you're already paying for medicare and medicaid and getting nothing for it.

Privatization is not always a good thing, quite often the profit motive simply increases overhead - we've seen that with school and prison privatization schemes, the result has invariably been a lower level of service at higher cost. In medicine, we see a high level of service, but at a cost that is simply out of reach for most people, and I'm talking middle class.

All it means is that private medicine remains what it's always been, what it is now: an elective for those who can afford it, it isn't going to go away; there's too much money in it, always has been.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Trysail often has difficulty with specifics.

Well there's your debate - is healthcare about healthcare or is it about keeping stockholders happy?

Presumably, a business provides a service for a profit, there is nothing sanctified about profit itself, nobody is entitled to it, and if somebody else can provide the same service at a lower cost, it's all the same to the consumer whether it's a private insurer or a public option - taxes or premiums, it's all money, no free rides.

In fact you're already paying for medicare and medicaid and getting nothing for it.

Privatization is not always a good thing, quite often the profit motive simply increases overhead - we've seen that with school and prison privatization schemes, the result has invariably been a lower level of service at higher cost. In medicine, we see a high level of service, but at a cost that is simply out of reach for most people, and I'm talking middle class.

All it means is that private medicine remains what it's always been, what it is now: an elective for those who can afford it, it isn't going to go away; there's too much money in it, always has been.

The fly in the ointment is the money lobbyists pay to politicians to get the taxes the politicians forced you to pay. When the politicians give the money back to you to pay for your treatment, they get nuthin for it; when they screw you and give the money to the lobbyists they get a cut of it. So its in their best interest if you die, especially if youre retired and paying little taxes.

 

[Dragonlipz]

Trysail often has difficulty with specifics.

Well there's your debate - is healthcare about healthcare or is it about keeping stockholders happy?

Presumably, a business provides a service for a profit, there is nothing sanctified about profit itself, nobody is entitled to it, and if somebody else can provide the same service at a lower cost, it's all the same to the consumer whether it's a private insurer or a public option - taxes or premiums, it's all money, no free rides.

In fact you're already paying for medicare and medicaid and getting nothing for it.

Privatization is not always a good thing, quite often the profit motive simply increases overhead - we've seen that with school and prison privatization schemes, the result has invariably been a lower level of service at higher cost. In medicine, we see a high level of service, but at a cost that is simply out of reach for most people, and I'm talking middle class.

All it means is that private medicine remains what it's always been, what it is now: an elective for those who can afford it, it isn't going to go away; there's too much money in it, always has been.

You've put the arrow on the mark. Allowing the insurance companies to operate a 'for profit' business model with no accountability except to the shareholders has exposed 'free market capitalism' for what is really is: A fanciful, elegant notion that is quickly rendered into the illogical nonsense that it stands for. A lack of regulation and accountability is to blame as are the corporate interests who prey on the rest of us - sowing fear and mistrust of those regulatory agencies....
I'm sure that some of the less evolved here will have plenty to say about this or spew some crap by Mencken that doesn't answer anything except their own inbred, inhibited view of 'real life.'
When you do respond, and I know you will, answer the specifics: don't spew or spout...give us your true thoughts, not some crap you cutnpaste.
So answer me this:
Why can't everyone have universal health care? Why does anyone need to make a profit from it? What happens to folks who've lost their jobs and have to choose between a house payment or a doctor's visit? Answer me that honestly.

 

[trysail]

Trysail often has difficulty with specifics...

While you, on the other hand, clearly have no difficulty stealing and spending other people's money.

Healthcare is and will be rationed. The incumbent discussion revolves solely around the means to accomplish that end; in all events, I end up paying for it— twice over.

Given a choice of medical decision making by Chuckie Schumer ( or his ilk ) or medical decision making by physicians, which would you choose?

 

[spake759]

I'm sure that some of the less evolved here will have plenty to say about this or spew some crap by Mencken that doesn't answer anything except their own inbred, inhibited view of 'real life.'
When you do respond, and I know you will, answer the specifics: don't spew or spout...give us your true thoughts, not some crap you cutnpaste.
So answer me this:
Why can't everyone have universal health care? Why does anyone need to make a profit from it? What happens to folks who've lost their jobs and have to choose between a house payment or a doctor's visit? Answer me that honestly.

To talk about your opposition just spouting talking points, you're doing one hell of a job doing that your self from your side of the argument. Calling those opposed to GOVERNMENT controlled healthcare such hurtful and hateful names. Why not call us 'slave owners' or those who supported slavery, and just want people to die while you're at it?. Because that's EXACTLY what you've done. You've climbed up on your 'moral high horse' and look down your nose at anyone who disagrees with you.

I LIVE with GOVERNMENT controlled Healthcare. And It SUCKS. It might be the only thing I have right now, but hell, I EARNED IT when i left enough blood on the ground fighting for EVERYONES right to bitch and moan all they want.

But its your side of the argument trying to kill debate with this kind of rethoric. Saying that those opposed to GOVERNMENT controlled healthcare haven't brought out any ideas. When this is an outright LIE. The Republicans had brought out a a crapload of ideas that would solve the problems we're expereincing.

When asked about the people who can't afford to buy the health insurance that the Congress is now mandating they just said 'We'll provide them with a grant to buy it'... Then why not just give them the grant in the first place and save the trillions of dollars they are about to saddle our great grandchidlren with.

While this isn't the biggest problem with this healthcare bill. But get the fact that WE CAN NOT AFFORD THIS. The Chinese are about to tell us "NO" when we go hat in hand and buy them to buy some more of our massive debt. Our credit rating is now a MASSIVE SUCKING CHEST WOUND that is about to put our country in the crapper. If you want to see what is about to happen in our country, look at the Weimar Republic and what happened with Hyperinflation. We're heading towards that so damn fast it's not even funny.

And that's not a 'Talking Point' or me trying to do any 'fear mongering'. That's me stating a simple fact.

But you want to know what the BIGGEST and most scarriest thing about Government Controlled Healthcare is?

It's GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED.

That gives the government, a bunch of 'faceless' unelected and unaccountable bureacrats control over your lives. People whose only purpose in life is to prove that they have a purpose in llife. ANd that is to incease the amount of influence that they have. Don't believe it, take it form someone who has seen it first hand on both sides of the issue.

When i was in the service i watched how government offices work, because for a while... I was one fo those paperpushers when they sidelined me after my injuries where so damn bad I couldn't go out in the feild anymore.

And i saw it as a homeless veteran, with a wife who was pregnate needing help getting off the street. And NONE OF THE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES COULD OR WOULD HELP. It was the first of the physical year, and they had already ran out of money because the money had already went to 'protected groups' whom the government felt where more deserving of the help.

Government can get away with setting up that kind of policy.

Did you know that those of us who get VA and Military Medical care don't have the right to sue for malpractice? And once the government take over healthcare, that's going to be the law of the line. No more malpractice... if a doctor screws up... Oh well, you're just screwed. Because guess what... that's how it is in Europe and other areas where the government has taken over the healthcare.

England who has this kind of policy has stated they can't keep it going, and they are looking for a way to pay for it. And we're about to rush head long into it.

There are so many other ways to fix the problem. And this way is the worst possible way of fixing it, because it's going to bring a hell of alot of problems that people are either just ignoring, or calling those who are trying to warn about them... Well, calling us names like you have done.