2010 Survivor Literotica: Plotting & Planning

[Boxlicker101]

Box, you don't have to split it up and send it by email. There's a file upload on the site that allows you to send the entire file at once. That uploads the file directly to Lit's server. Just make sure you use the email you are registered with at Lit in the "Who are the files from?" box and put that it's an audio file that goes with the submission titled (whatever you submission is) in the "Write a comment" box.

There's a bulk uploader so you can actually send more than one file at a time (I've used it to submit several audio poems' audio files at once.)

That is something I have never seen before. Is it new? I will definitely try it next year. I don't have any audible stories in the hopper right now, but I can put one there.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

That is something I have never seen before. Is it new? I will definitely try it next year. I don't have any audible stories in the hopper right now, but I can put one there.

No, it's not new. It's been there for as long as I've done Survivor (which has been a few years now.)

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Okay, so let's discuss immunities for a bit. Is everyone happy with the way immunities were done this year? Does anyone think part of it should be tweaked? Should we put the ratios back in (personally, I think we should)? Should they count for an entire category or just for a cap level as they are now? What say you?

I already know one clarification that will made to the language so it will be clear that once you use an immunity, you may not erase it and replace it with a submission. This has always been the rule, but it's come up that some didn't understand that as clearly as others.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I think immunities should count for points. Maybe three or four, not the full five. In the past it would have been silly to erase an immunity and replace it with a story but not so this year. Potentially I could be in a tie with someone or close behind them and if I erased an immunity and replaced it with a three point story that's the same as writing THREE stories. Big deal.

I don't know how normal this is because I don't compete every year but I think only four or five people have got a story in every category (even with immunities) and immunities without points are only good for filling categories for the bonus. I haven't seen enough to convince me that we should cap immunities but I can understand the idea of being pissed if someone beat me without writing any stories. Like one writer mentioned they were getting them like every week.

In closing yes immunities should be worth points. Say half of that tier rounded up? So for level one 4 points, level two 1 point?

 

[Boxlicker101]

I don't believe immunities should count for anything except filling a category. I also think there should be a limit on how many could be used. In the past, it was, as I recall, one immunity for two stories or poems or essays. To get five bonus points, it was necessary to have at least seven items and no more than three immunities. I also think immunities should be somewhat discouraged, and not allowing one to be deleted would be one way to do this.

Currently, we have one week to claim an immunity. This should remain the same but, during that time, the contestant should have the right to do anything he or she wants with the immunity. That would mean changing its allocation or erasing it. After the deadline has passed, the immunity should stay where it is for the rest of the year.

I like the idea of the caps but, as I said before, I believe an exception should be made for ongoing chapters in one novel or novella.

 

[OnlyByMoonlight]

Though I haven't competed this year (but plan to compete next year)_ I kinda think immunities should count for a whole category, not just a cap level. In that instance, though, I think they shouldn't be worth points and there should be a limit on the number of them you can have, like 5 that way you could close off the one or two categories you are just terrible at.

Or maybe you could have a choice. If you choose to only have the immunity count for 1 cap level, you could get up to, say 7, OR yo could choose to have only a couple immunities count to close off a couple categories.

From what I've seen from reading this years rules, overall I like it as it is.

 

[Sean Renaud]

The problem, and the reason why I think that immunities should be worth points (just not full points) for a tier is that it seems silly to me one person could write the same amount, or more stories but because the first story counts triple they could lose basically for a single immunity in theory (obviously not in practice).

It suppose it's no big at the "average" level but with say the top 5 people competing this year if for example I can't fill EVERY tier to 3 nothing else matters. I wrote more stories (at least so far) but my immunities will actually hurt me and when combined with my inability to just say, oh I won but oh well.

I also disagree with the immunity one week rule. I think it's easy enough to see who's been playing and since when (since their score card was issued) and if you had a score card prior to an immunity then you're good to go. I should be able to look them up December 31st and distribute whereever.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

The thing with immunities is, it's your choice whether or not to use them. No one forces you to allot a won immunity to a category. The reason we took away points for them this year was to encourage more people to actually write stories in categories they aren't comfortable with (which is part of the point of the contest) and not reward them for deciding to use an immunity instead.

Giving you all year to decide where to use an immunity is, in my opinion, against the spirit of the contest (not to mention it would make it incredibly difficult for the moderators to keep up with them.)

I'm all for limiting how many immunities a person can win (by putting the ratios back in place), which would curb some of the possibilities of someone with a bunch of immunities placing ahead of someone with more stories.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Okay, I took a while to sit and think about what you said instead of just spurting out a response here. While I disagree that giving people a whole year to use an immunity is against the spirit of things I can see you point. In my case I can say that I blew on on Trans/cross dressing cus I didn't feel like it and I liked the idea of doing illustrated stories. Here in December I've got two that have been up for two weeks and one that's been up for a week and still not posted. (least they haven't been formally rejected) and I'd rather switch that now. But I see your over all point.

What would happen, for example if we said immunities don't count for points until X. My reasoning being that with the current teir system level one is worth 180 points (34x5+10 for Novels). But tier 2 is worth 72 pts. I could potentially write MORE stories than someone else but because each immunity becomes -3 points effectively. Now I recognize that only two of us are even potentially going to break through the first tier this year, wife2blk could do it and if my illustrates ever stop pending I will, so maybe this is just not a problem that needs dealing with yet because it's not a problem yet.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Let's put a couple of issues up for yay or nay and see what we've got.

Please say where you stand on these two issues (yay or nay will be fine):

Do you want immunities to be worth points again? (keep in mind, if they *are* worth points, they will be worth less than what a story is worth (the details to be worked out after a decision is made).

Do you want to add back in the ratios? (In other words, you must have at least one (or two depending on what is decided) story for every immunity used.)

I believe these are the main concerns for the upcoming contest, so let's get these hammered out.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Let's put a couple of issues up for yay or nay and see what we've got.

Please say where you stand on these two issues (yay or nay will be fine):

Do you want immunities to be worth points again? (keep in mind, if they *are* worth points, they will be worth less than what a story is worth (the details to be worked out after a decision is made).

Do you want to add back in the ratios? (In other words, you must have at least one (or two depending on what is decided) story for every immunity used.)

I believe these are the main concerns for the upcoming contest, so let's get these hammered out.

Personally, I like having no points for immunities, and I like requiring two stories, poems or essays for each immunity used. That ratio is for at the end of the year. During the course of the year, the ratio may be exceeded with no problem.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I think immunities should be worth points. Say half rounded down for the level. So a Level one cap would be worth 3 points and a level 2 and above would be 1 point.

My reasoning is that as it currently stands you could right MORE stories than someone else and still have less points because the immunity also takes away the first story being worth 3 points. If we remove that and say the first story is the first story and it counts for 3 points regardless it would eliminate this problem.

As for ratios or limits I'm up in the air on that. I'm sure the rule is there for a reason (a practiced reason not an in theory someone could get 52 immunities and get 60 points without writing a single story and possibly place well) So I'll leave that decision to people more experienced than myself.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think immunities should be worth points. Say half rounded down for the level. So a Level one cap would be worth 3 points and a level 2 and above would be 1 point.

My reasoning is that as it currently stands you could right MORE stories than someone else and still have less points because the immunity also takes away the first story being worth 3 points. If we remove that and say the first story is the first story and it counts for 3 points regardless it would eliminate this problem.

As for ratios or limits I'm up in the air on that. I'm sure the rule is there for a reason (a practiced reason not an in theory someone could get 52 immunities and get 60 points without writing a single story and possibly place well) So I'll leave that decision to people more experienced than myself.

That would make an immunity worth as much as a story in most categories. Keep in mind that most people do not complete all categories and even fewer fill even the first tier of caps.

Since the object is to write stories and poems and essays in as many categories as possible, I also believe there should be a limit on the number of immunities in any one tier. Either a ratio, such as one out of three categories filled, or a maximum, such as five. On average, people are likely to hit seven or eight immunities in a year.

 

[Sean Renaud]

How bout immunities are only worth points if you've filled the entire first tier. That way it solves both problems, if you don't fill the first tier then they only help you fill out categories to get to those points. But if you do complete the first tier they don't become dead weight.

Or like I said we could say that the first story is worth triple rule applies no matter where that first story is written. Again so if you get to the second teir you're not down 3 points, or effectively three whole stories.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

By now, we usually have pages upon pages of discussion. I guess the majority is satisfied with how the rules were laid out for this year and don't really want changes.

With only one person asking for the immunities to count for points, there won't be a change unless more come in with their opinions in the next few days.

I have seen more than one comment on the need for a ratio of some kind, so that will likely be added back in to the rules. I think it was just an oversight that they weren't included this year because I looked back in 2009's plotting thread and saw no discussion dropping them, they just kind of got left off.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Overall, I am happy with the rules as they were for this year. I think it would be beneficial to add the ratio back in. I don't think immunities should necessarily count for points. In a way, they indirectly count as points since they fill categories and filled categories=points.

I like the idea of requiring participants to update their scorecards periodically, like maybe every month, or within so long after posting a story. I think Survivor would be more fun if everyone knew where they stood. My only concern would be like if someone posted a story and then had a legitimate reason why he couldn't update his scorecard in time. I wouldn't want anyone to lose points for something out of their control like a hospitalization or something. I think if a person shows a good faith effort at keeping the card updated, no points should be lost. But, if someone were to keep posting stories and not have the card updated, you know that was by choice. Perhaps that would be a good way to safeguard this- to have a rule that you can't post more stories until the scorecard is updated from previous stories. Hmmm, but then you have the fact that multiple stories could be posted at once. Maybe someone else will have a practical idea for what the actual rule should be.

I think this point is worth discussing. In the past, I saw this version of sandbagging considered a form of strategy, and that was just fine. Anyone who did it or is doing it this year is not breaking the rules or anything. I just think it would keep the contest more interesting throughout the year if people could see their true standings at any time.

 

[PositiveThinker]

It's just about the story

Overall, I am happy with the rules as they were for this year. I think it would be beneficial to add the ratio back in. I don't think immunities should necessarily count for points. In a way, they indirectly count as points since they fill categories and filled categories=points.

I like the idea of requiring participants to update their scorecards periodically, like maybe every month, or within so long after posting a story. I think Survivor would be more fun if everyone knew where they stood. My only concern would be like if someone posted a story and then had a legitimate reason why he couldn't update his scorecard in time. I wouldn't want anyone to lose points for something out of their control like a hospitalization or something. I think if a person shows a good faith effort at keeping the card updated, no points should be lost. But, if someone were to keep posting stories and not have the card updated, you know that was by choice. Perhaps that would be a good way to safeguard this- to have a rule that you can't post more stories until the scorecard is updated from previous stories. Hmmm, but then you have the fact that multiple stories could be posted at once. Maybe someone else will have a practical idea for what the actual rule should be.

I think this point is worth discussing. In the past, I saw this version of sandbagging considered a form of strategy, and that was just fine. Anyone who did it or is doing it this year is not breaking the rules or anything. I just think it would keep the contest more interesting throughout the year if people could see their true standings at any time.

Yeah, I'd like to see the sand bagging come to an end. Scorecards need to be updated, even quarterly, or you lose points.

Secondly, I've said this every year, stories for Survivor should be a miminum of 1,500 words. I'm tired of seeing these non sensical 800 word stories, stories that have no plot and no character development dumped at the last moment of the contest, just to score a point and to steal someone else's place in the contest.

This site is about stories and not about contests and winning money. It should be about the story. Having dozens of minimum worded stories puts the Survivor contestants in a bad light and sheds shame on an otherwise good and fun contest. Not to mention, it ruins the competition for those writers, such as my combatant Boxlicker, who genuinely writes good and creative stories that are not and never have been at the 750 word minimum.

As far as the moderator's concern that they cannot possibly count all the words of all the stories, other competitors would do that, I'm sure, especially if they were suddenly losing to someone who was duming stories that did not satisfy the 1,500 minimum.

Just my 2 cents. Also, I don't know if any of you know or believe me anyway, but whatever monies I win, I give away to charity, to the homeless shelter where I pass out food each Sunday and holidays. I'm not here for the money. I'm here for the story. It's just about the story to me.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Minimum story word count is set by the site owners. Mods have no control over that.

I don't like the dumping of sucky stories any more than other people do, but there's no way to police that. If it gets approved by the site owners, it counts. It's not just survivor participants that are doing it. Sucky stories come from other authors as well. Sad, but true.

As far as the updating of the scorecards, we've been over that one before. Everyone is provided with links to each participants story list/scorecard. If they don't have their stories posted, you are more then welcome to take a look at their story list and see what they've gotten done. Just because they don't put it on their cards doesn't necessarily mean they are sandbagging. Their stories are listed for anyone to see. There are myriad of reasons why scorecards might not get updated, and sandbagging doesn't have to be one of them. Not everyone is that underhanded. Some people just aren't that organized or have more important things to do with their time.

I know some of you don't like that. Some of you want all cards updated every time a story is accepted. Some of you don't care. The bottom line is, nothing on the scorecard technically counts until after the deadline. Until then, stuff can be added, removed, etc. (except removing immunities) at will. They are simply there to make things easier for participants.

 

[LOAnnie2]

I think the one that bothered me the most was the no chapter stories.

I found it a bit ambiguous in my case reading through the rules thread and discussion on Survivor 2009. I have one story series that I am writing in chapters. Each story is a complete story in and of itself, and is complete without the others (though it will be easier if you've read the previous chapters of course), and take place with weeks or months between.

I propose for 2010 that a category called "Chapter Stories" be added, with the same caps as the other categories are going to have. All the chapters could be from the same story or different stories, it wouldn't matter, but it'd give authors a chance to flesh out longer stories without going to novels and novellas lengths. Also a caveat can be put on this category, that a story must have at least 2 chapters to score in here (to prevent someone from writing "My Story, Chapter 1" and never making a Chapter 2 as a way to try and score an extra few points).

Though to go along with that, chapters wouldn't have to all be from the same year (aka, maybe get some people to finish off story series that they've put on hold since they don't get credit with survivor).

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[Sean Renaud]

I really feel strongly that if immunities are not going to be worth points. And while I think I've made solid cases for how that could be adjusted, like they don't count for points until you've filled an entire tier that we should be free to get rid of them and get the points instead. This is particularly true with the tier system (which I think is great btw) but as I've pointed since the first story in a category is worth three points and the first tier five points vs two and one points a player could write MORE stories and still lose which shouldn't be possible.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

I really feel strongly that if immunities are not going to be worth points. And while I think I've made solid cases for how that could be adjusted, like they don't count for points until you've filled an entire tier that we should be free to get rid of them and get the points instead. This is particularly true with the tier system (which I think is great btw) but as I've pointed since the first story in a category is worth three points and the first tier five points vs two and one points a player could write MORE stories and still lose which shouldn't be possible.

Sean, the point is, it's your decision whether or not to use and immunity and where to put it. If you don't want to lose those points, then fill the cap with stories.

However, as a compromise to some of what I've heard here about the immunities and the caps, we could think about adjusting the cap levels a bit. For instance, have cap level 1 only need 2 stories instead of 3, then cap level 2 need 2 stories, and then all other levels only need 1. Of course, that would probably mean more people would reach cap level 2... Just an idea.


Erin, if someone is breaking the chapter rule, then report it by pm. That's the only way to keep it from happening. I, for one, do not want to see chapter stories allowed back into the contest. For one thing, the purpose of the contest is to write "new and original" stories. Chapters aren't original stories. You have novels & novellas for longer series. To me, in this contest, chapters are just an easy way to make points. (and this is coming from someone who had several chapter series in previous years' contests.) I would really like to give this rule at least one more year before we think about chucking it.

My problem with the no limit immunity would be that someone could conceivably get the 10 category bonus without writing much of anything. I don't think that's fair to everyone else. We could have a low ratio of 1:1 instead of 2:1 (2 cap levels for every 1 immunity), but I think the ratio should be back in place for next year's contest.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Sean, the point is, it's your decision whether or not to use and immunity and where to put it. If you don't want to lose those points, then fill the cap with stories.

However, as a compromise to some of what I've heard here about the immunities and the caps, we could think about adjusting the cap levels a bit. For instance, have cap level 1 only need 2 stories instead of 3, then cap level 2 need 2 stories, and then all other levels only need 1. Of course, that would probably mean more people would reach cap level 2... Just an idea.


Erin, if someone is breaking the chapter rule, then report it by pm. That's the only way to keep it from happening. I, for one, do not want to see chapter stories allowed back into the contest. For one thing, the purpose of the contest is to write "new and original" stories. Chapters aren't original stories. You have novels & novellas for longer series. To me, in this contest, chapters are just an easy way to make points. (and this is coming from someone who had several chapter series in previous years' contests.) I would really like to give this rule at least one more year before we think about chucking it.

My problem with the no limit immunity would be that someone could conceivably get the 10 category bonus without writing much of anything. I don't think that's fair to everyone else. We could have a low ratio of 1:1 instead of 2:1 (2 stories for every 1 immunity), but I think the ratio should be back in place for next year's contest.

The problem with chapters is that it is easy to write a story and break it up into three or five parts and call each one a chapter, even though each one is only 1,000 or so words. That was done two years ago, and that's why it is against the rules now. Each part of a novel or novella has to be at least 7,500 words, so that is not a problem there.

I have two series, Angel Jones and Marian and Ryan, that I named Angel 1, Angel 2, etc., so they would stay in order. Each one is a stand alone story, but the main characters remain the same, and I do reference previous stories in the series, and I thought it made sense to label them that way. In the future, I will name them differently, but try to keep them in order somehow.

As you know, we do not have the final say as to what will be the name of a story. If Laurel wants to, she can name a sequel "Chapter 2." and she has done so with some of my stuff.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

I think that some stories lend themselves very well to stand alone chapters- like ones that (from what I understand) Box does where just the main characters are the same. I ran into problems with my Book of Secrets (mind control series) since I would have to pretty much recap the story each time.. even though each chapter had a unique twist and was essentially a story in and of itself. I decided not to continue that series on Lit. (for reasons other than Survivor- I'm going to be turning it into a graphic novel) But, you can see how it just would be kinda silly for a legitimate Survivor contest entries to have to keep rehashing the theme of the chapters as one would need to do for some categories. It's just something writers may want to keep in mind. Many times, readers request additional chapters of a story that I wrote, but I've moved away from doing chapters at all. I'd rather take stories that I have started in chapter format and move them to another avenue like graphic novels or ebooks elsewhere.

 

[LOAnnie2]

For one thing, the purpose of the contest is to write "new and original" stories. Chapters aren't original stories.

I also saw it above mentioning how there's plenty of crap stories with no plot development that are at the 800 word or so mark. It seems like with this quote the survivor contest is more about quantity than quality.

The real question that should be asked here is not in regards to the points or original stories (hence why I suggested a chaptered category), but quality.

In terms of survivor stories posted in the past that were done in chapters, were they generally of a better quality than some of the 800 word point scoring stories that get posted.

As both an avid reader and an occassional writer, there's a lot of cases where I would much more enjoy a multi-chaptered story over just a quick one and done. I mean, I could write 5 stories at exactly the word minimum to score me a ton of points in the survivor contest, but that no one would really enjoy reading because they are crap.

However, I could also use those same 3750 words to write 2 or 3 chapters of an elaborately detailed story that people may actually want to read and enjoy.