2009 will go down as the year of the femm

[none2_none2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=465dRpSGjR4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G5uHsW8i8c

 

[Etoile]

Except Ellen isn't a femme...

 

[Safe_Bet]

Except Ellen isn't a femme...

*Snerk*

Femme? Hell Yeah!

I
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http://img254.imagevenue.com/loc384/th_75455_portia_de_rossi_122_384lo.jpg




Femme? No. not so much....

I
I
V

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq119/Safe_Bet2008/ellen_degeneres.jpg​

 

[none2_none2]

Except Ellen isn't a femme...

Well I think marriage has softened her up. This is just one more sign that she is femming up.

Easy, Breasy, ... Ellen.


The reason I posted this thread is because I had never seen this commercial before last night. I typically watch sci-fi -- or their stupid new name of "syfy". I don't know what I was watching last night, but I was caught off guard when I saw the commercial. Also if you see the very beginning of the first vid -- with the up-close facial of her, she is GORGEOUS!

Ellen goes out of her way as a comedienne to make herself out to be clutzy & plain. However, in those first 5 seconds or so she shows that she is more beautiful than many of the ladies that do beauty pageants -- and she is in her 50's! That's 30 years older. What really caught me is just how beautiful her eyes are. Run that first link, and stop it on her facial closeup. You'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[Etoile]

She's very pretty, and she was an awesome choice for Cover Girl to make, but she isn't a femme. She's more soft andro, I think.

See, femme and feminine are not the same thing. Feminine is an adjective, and it might describe Ellen. But femme is a noun, and it doesn't describe her. Femme is from the 1950s - while gay men could be part of a variety of cultures (motorcycle, Old Guard, drag, etc), there was pretty much only one lesbian subculture, and that was butch/femme. You were either butch, femme, or not involved in the lesbian community back then. The "new" lesbian emerged in the 1970s - flannel, communes, the whole bit. When that happened, butches and femmes were rejected by greater lesbian culture, because they followed the "patriarchy" and heterosexual gender roles, which "new" lesbians eschewed. (Back in the day, even penetration in a lesbian relationship was uncool, because that was something MEN did to women, not what two women did between themselves.) Even though the strict rules of 1970s lesbians faded in the 1980s and 1990s, butch/femme never rose again as a significant part of lesbian culture. Yeah, there are stone butches and stone femmes out there, but it's not a prominent group like it was back in the 1950s.

Being feminine is an everyday thing though - lesbians and straight girls alike can be feminine. Ellen is pretty feminine, though she obviously leans toward the andro side while Portia is more girly. (See this wedding pic for evidence.) So yeah, Ellen is feminine, but like I said, she's not a femme.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I really doubt that any year will be "of the femme" for at least a couple more decades...

 

[none2_none2]

She's very pretty, and she was an awesome choice for Cover Girl to make, but she isn't a femme. She's more soft andro, I think.

See, femme and feminine are not the same thing. Feminine is an adjective, and it might describe Ellen. But femme is a noun, and it doesn't describe her. Femme is from the 1950s - while gay men could be part of a variety of cultures (motorcycle, Old Guard, drag, etc), there was pretty much only one lesbian subculture, and that was butch/femme. You were either butch, femme, or not involved in the lesbian community back then. The "new" lesbian emerged in the 1970s - flannel, communes, the whole bit. When that happened, butches and femmes were rejected by greater lesbian culture, because they followed the "patriarchy" and heterosexual gender roles, which "new" lesbians eschewed. (Back in the day, even penetration in a lesbian relationship was uncool, because that was something MEN did to women, not what two women did between themselves.) Even though the strict rules of 1970s lesbians faded in the 1980s and 1990s, butch/femme never rose again as a significant part of lesbian culture. Yeah, there are stone butches and stone femmes out there, but it's not a prominent group like it was back in the 1950s.

Being feminine is an everyday thing though - lesbians and straight girls alike can be feminine. Ellen is pretty feminine, though she obviously leans toward the andro side while Portia is more girly. (See this wedding pic for evidence.) So yeah, Ellen is feminine, but like I said, she's not a femme.

I admit that I don't know a lot about lesbian history. What I had seen was that there were many who did do the butch role. For instance, my first serious relationship was with someone who had a best friend who was a lesbian. You wouldn't know she was a lesbian if she didn't tell you. When I first met her, she was involved with an artsy/fartsy woman who I never met, but my friend told me that the artsy/fartsy lady had a lot of depression issues. So when they broke up, my BF's best friend then hooked up with someone who seemed to want to mimic masculinity. She wore clothes that looked like something a boy (not a man) would wear - slender ties, etc. She also had a death grip hand shake.

Moving forward in time, while I was never big into bars, I also noticed that the lesbians there tended to take on roles -- at least as it related to clothing.

Going forward again, then when I got involved into 12 step. I was told to talk to a gay guy about what programs were in the area. We became friends and he introduced me to lesbians since most of his friends were lesbians. I can see why he prefered lesbian friends over gay guys as at least at the time around there gay guys were pretty much into bars and sex. The lesbian subculture at least round there didn't seem hedonistic compared to the gay male subculture in the same area. They actually liked to DO things: camping, hiking, biking, etc. Also lesbians were always involved in helping in the gay men's culture when AIDS took such a big toll in the 80's.

Then going forward, after a well known gay guy died of AIDS, I attended MCC from time to time. There I met a lot of lesbians -- mainly older ladies.


So much for my in depth knowledge of lesbian studies.... Now how I came to do start this thread...

I knew that butch/femme were originally terms from the lesbian community. I didn't know precisely that much about the history within your community. That being said, those same terms were also borrowed and used in the gay men's culture. Phrases like: "Your acting butch for a change." "You need to butch it up." "That's really femme." Unfortunately, today instead of using the term butch, someone gay guys will say "str8 acting", and femme means acting like a queen. The terms were never limited to being used as a noun.

So when I referred to Ellen as femme, it was only because it just seemed a bit out of the range of her normal demeanor. The commercial simply caught me off guard. I don't follow Ellen's life daily as I'm not into celebrities regardless if gay/straight male/female. You are right, I have met women who were definitely more butch than her. I always felt that sometimes the funniest people do it because it is a way of coping with one's insecurities.

Anyway, thanks for explaining the original purpose of the terms. The gay male world isn't so different. We also have our subgroups too -- including those that are anti-anal sex for various reasons: ie riskier for AIDS, or because it mimic heterosexuality. The one that really pisses me off is when heterosexuals think anal is gross, and some gays releave their fears by stating how not all gay guys do anal. To me that would be like if a gay guy was grossed out by Connie Lingus, and so a lesbian tried to appeal to their sensibilities by pointing out that not all lesbians do that particular act. If they are grossed out, get over it. Nobody forces anybody to do something they don't want to do. As to the mimicking heterosexuality... If I worried that the acts I liked to do mimicked heterosexuality, then I guess I would never kiss, hold hands, or tell someone I loved them or wanted to marry them. That whole argument as far as I'm concerned is pushed by frigid gay people. They need counseling if they think they need to be PC about their own community's sex practices.

 

[none2_none2]

Oh, and she isn't just very pretty; she is gorgeous in those first few minutes of the commercial. Her eyes look like sapphire crystals, and her teeth are like pearls. She looks like I would have envisioned Helen -- and I don't mean one in Troy, Michigan.

Don't worry, I'm not some non-gay guy that looks at a woman and thinks how I can degrade her to get my jollies. It is more like looking at a beautiful painting/sculpture.

Remember, we simply know true beauty from centuries of exposure to dolls, fashion, art. That finess for ascetic beauty is a gay guy thing.

 

[Safe_Bet]

To me that would be like if a gay guy was grossed out by Connie Lingus, and so a lesbian tried to appeal to their sensibilities by pointing out that not all lesbians do that particular act.

*Snerk* She'd be lying if she said that. We ALL kiss the kitty! Just sayin'...

 

[Stella_Omega]

The one that really pisses me off is when heterosexuals think anal is gross, and some gays releave their fears by stating how not all gay guys do anal. To me that would be like if a gay guy was grossed out by Connie Lingus, and so a lesbian tried to appeal to their sensibilities by pointing out that not all lesbians do that particular act. If they are grossed out, get over it. Nobody forces anybody to do something they don't want to do.

Actually, it's more like; Most heterosexuals can't figure out what else a gay couple would do, because sticking a pole in a hole is the only way they ever experience sex. And eating pussy is the only thing they can think of to do if someone doesn't have a pole to stick in it. Every time I've ever said "that's not all"-- that's when I get the look of shock...

As to the mimicking heterosexuality...If I worried that the acts I liked to do mimicked heterosexuality, then I guess I would never kiss, hold hands, or tell someone I loved them or wanted to marry them.

Those things don't "mimic heterosexuality," lovie-- they are universal acts, and the hets only think they own 'em.

 

[lightsaver]

Actually, it's more like; Most heterosexuals can't figure out what else a gay couple would do, because sticking a pole in a hole is the only way they ever experience sex. And eating pussy is the only thing they can think of to do if someone doesn't have a pole to stick in it. Every time I've ever said "that's not all"-- that's when I get the look of shock...Those things don't "mimic heterosexuality," lovie-- they are universal acts, and the hets only think they own 'em.

I agree and would like to add..
Once in awhile, its not shock. It's awe and wonder.

 

[John Doe]

Actually, it's more like; Most heterosexuals can't figure out what else a gay couple would do, because sticking a pole in a hole is the only way they ever experience sex. And eating pussy is the only thing they can think of to do if someone doesn't have a pole to stick in it. Every time I've ever said "that's not all"-- that's when I get the look of shock...Those things don't "mimic heterosexuality," lovie-- they are universal acts, and the hets only think they own 'em.

Actually, it's more like ignorant morons can't figure it out.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Actually, it's more like ignorant morons can't figure it out.

You're right -- plenty of hets are plenty imaginative and/or sophisticated. That was an unwarranted generalisation, I apologise.

 

[none2_none2]

Actually, it's more like; Most heterosexuals can't figure out what else a gay couple would do, because sticking a pole in a hole is the only way they ever experience sex. And eating pussy is the only thing they can think of to do if someone doesn't have a pole to stick in it. Every time I've ever said "that's not all"-- that's when I get the look of shock...Those things don't "mimic heterosexuality," lovie-- they are universal acts, and the hets only think they own 'em.

My problem with this isn't with heterosexals with the exception of those that think that somehow anal sex is fine as long as the "hole" belongs to a woman.

What really bothers me is apologetic gays and/or PC gays. I once had a trist with a married guy whose son was also gay. (FYI, the son didn't know about the dad's gay/bi-ness. The son would openly talk to dad about his homosexuality.) Anyway, the son told the dad that he would never do anal sex because that is mimicking straight sex. I've also seen gays who when responding to straights that have anal sex fears, that instead of saying get over it. They say some of us simply don't do anal sex. I won't apologize to straights anymore than I will apologize to PC gays that I LOVE anal sex. I won't sanitize the debate by saying I like oral only. First it is a lie, and second I'd rather be honest and say how wonderful it feels to be inside another guy than to continue to push the lies that anal sex is always emasculating and/or physically gross because it has to involve feces.

 

[Stella_Omega]

someone-- a woman writer, actually-- had one of her characters give a great answer to that, about how the women he knew didn't, as far as he knew, take it up the butt at all, and no man would be brave enough to ask them for it except one f the women, and if she wasn't happy about it afterwards, the dude had better be very careful around her... he was saying that him taking it up the butt did NOT make him a "bitch" but made it more clear than ever that he was a man.

And you know, I learned more about my own G spot from pegging men-- one man in particular-- and how to treat it, than any straight woman's treatise on G-spot orgasms ever did. Seriously, any man who has a sensitive prostate and isn't playing with it? What a waste, what a waste.

I really fucking hate it that people are lead into lies, even lying to themselves, to make the majority feel better and themselves feel safer, but i can also, unfortunately, understand the impulse.

 

[John Doe]

You're right -- plenty of hets are plenty imaginative and/or sophisticated. That was an unwarranted generalisation, I apologise.

That wasn't my point but thanks, I guess.

 

[John Doe]

My problem with this isn't with heterosexals with the exception of those that think that somehow anal sex is fine as long as the "hole" belongs to a woman. [snip]

They wouldn't be heterosexual if they didn't mind having sex with another man.

 

[none2_none2]

They wouldn't be heterosexual if they didn't mind having sex with another man.

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't talking about whether such heterosexuals would actually engage in m2m anal sex. Rather, that such persons see absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of a penis being inserted into a female's rectum. However, they are revolted if a penis being inserted into a male's rectum. If the truly think that a man's asshole was only meant for elimination, then they should have the same attitude about the purpose of a female's asshole. What to they think heterosexual anal sex is about? Perhaps they think that the guy simply slipped and missed the "proper" opening and therefore should be forgiven if they stay in the incorrect opening for 5 to 30 minutes ever now and then?

 

[Etoile]

LOL, 5 to 30 minutes

 

[Stella_Omega]

LOL, 5 to 30 minutes

How about 15, as a compromise?

 

[John Doe]

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't talking about whether such heterosexuals would actually engage in m2m anal sex. Rather, that such persons see absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of a penis being inserted into a female's rectum. However, they are revolted if a penis being inserted into a male's rectum. If the truly think that a man's asshole was only meant for elimination, then they should have the same attitude about the purpose of a female's asshole. What to they think heterosexual anal sex is about? Perhaps they think that the guy simply slipped and missed the "proper" opening and therefore should be forgiven if they stay in the incorrect opening for 5 to 30 minutes ever now and then?

That's a big if. I gather that more often than not the gender of one's sexual partner does matter and so it would not merely be an issue of similar orifices and/or their intended purpose.

To reiterate my first comment, it makes perfect sense to me that a hetero man would be repulsed by the thought of sex with another man while being attracted to women. If they didn't have such a preference by definition they wouldn't be hetero.

 

[none2_none2]

That's a big if. I gather that more often than not the gender of one's sexual partner does matter and so it would not merely be an issue of similar orifices and/or their intended purpose.

To reiterate my first comment, it makes perfect sense to me that a hetero man would be repulsed by the thought of sex with another man while being attracted to women. If they didn't have such a preference by definition they wouldn't be hetero.

Heterosexual means attracted to the opposite sex just as homosexual means attracted to the same sex. So by definition, heterosexuality is NOT defined by repulsion of the same sex. Likewise, homosexuality is NOT defined by the repulsion of the opposite sex. I consider myself gay because I'm a guy who loves fucking hairy, masculine, muscular guys. That attraction is way too strong to allow for space in my head to be reserved for being repulsed by women's bodies or by the though of having sex with them.

So if i had a straight friend brag about fucking a woman in the ass, I don't think: "ewww, Gross! How could you!". Just like if a gay friend bragged about fucking a smooth TS or twinky guy, I wouldn't waste the brain cells even mentally picturing their sex, let alone thinking about how it might as be gross. It simply isn't my thing. I'd be spending more of my time thinking about where they hairy bottoms are.

 

[HarlotMinx]

That's a big if. I gather that more often than not the gender of one's sexual partner does matter and so it would not merely be an issue of similar orifices and/or their intended purpose.

To reiterate my first comment, it makes perfect sense to me that a hetero man would be repulsed by the thought of sex with another man while being attracted to women. If they didn't have such a preference by definition they wouldn't be hetero.

Okay, lets reframe this for you. A woman walks into a bedroom wearing a nightie and sporting a nice silicone strapon.... or if you'd like something less phallic, a completely un penis like vibrator. Most men will shy away if not abhor the idea of being penetrated by a woman. I mean okay I don't have a poll laying around I can point to or statistics and I'm sure their are SOME men out their who are just dandy having a woman play with their ass but they don't make the majority.

 

[John Doe]

Okay, lets reframe this for you. A woman walks into a bedroom wearing a nightie and sporting a nice silicone strapon.... or if you'd like something less phallic, a completely un penis like vibrator. Most men will shy away if not abhor the idea of being penetrated by a woman. I mean okay I don't have a poll laying around I can point to or statistics and I'm sure their are SOME men out their who are just dandy having a woman play with their ass but they don't make the majority.

Most women shy away from getting fucked up the ass too. So?

If you're arguing that some men would be reluctant because they're afraid it would threaten their sexuality then I agree. Indeed, many fears are irrational. But if I understand none2 correctly he is assuming everyone thinks of and approaches orifices entirely separate from the individual. If that were true we wouldn't have modern concepts like hetero- and homosexuality. We would describe sexuality merely in terms of a preference for certain physical configurations. "Insert tab A into slot B" if you will. It's not usually that simple.

 

[Etoile]

I consider myself gay because I'm a guy who loves fucking hairy, masculine, muscular guys. That attraction is way too strong to allow for space in my head to be reserved for being repulsed by women's bodies or by the though of having sex with them.

A large number of gay guys ARE repulsed by women, though. I'm not saying it defines all gay people - obviously not - but many gay men are misogynistic in this way. I have a dear friend who accidentally brushed my boob once when he was about to hug me, and he drew back in horror. A lot of my friends are the same way...I can think of ONE who doesn't mind admitting a woman can be attractive (and yet doesn't want to fuck her).