Pop Culture and Copyright

[knighttakesrook]

Hi, all!

I was wondering about copyright.

Is it okay to mention an artist and a title of a song in a story you write? How about a movie? Or making a reference to a movie? What about specific cartoon-themed lingerie?

Normally, I feel references to other works weaken a story, but I am working on a 1st person story and feel it helps flesh out the point of view. Also, there are very amateur, small-laugh-type attempts at comedy in the story and I think it helps add a quality of irreverence, sort of like a sitcom I will not name because of the above question.

 

[sr71plt]

Such references are fine. Copyright concerns use of actual passages of words in the works.

 

[knighttakesrook]

popculture/copyright

Thanks.

I thought so, but I was not quite sure. To me, not only are small references a plain matter of freedom of speech, they are also a net positive for the owners of intellectual property, since they are basically free publicity. But then again you hear confusing things from time to time like the TV news and newspapers having to pay each time they mention the term "The Super Bowl" or that they get around it by saying "The Big Game."

 

[sr71plt]

Copyright isn't a freedom of speech issue. It's an ownership of what you've created issue. Writers should be the first ones to understand the need to protect writers' ownership of what they create.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... But then again you hear confusing things from time to time like the TV news and newspapers having to pay each time they mention the term "The Super Bowl" or that they get around it by saying "The Big Game."

That is not a copyright issue directly, but because "The Super Bowl" is a trade mark. Everything you or anyone writes is automatically your copyright and in theory I should acknowledge that the above quotation is your words and not mine, but in practice only copying significant chunks of material is considered breach of copyright. Do I hear a chorus of other authors saying "Yeah, yeah, yeah"? And a chorus of pedants saying "Tut, tut, tut"?

 

[emap]

What snoopy said actually with a small probably wrong explanation.

Music is easy, if you use say, the key riff of a song for your own song, you are in breach of copywrite. Like say, M.C. Hammer basically used the music from Superfreak for You Can't Touch This. Actually why most musicians use classical for their inspiration, they are all dead and aren't going to say hey I wrote that and you sped it up.

Writing copywrites are harder to do, two authors can write basically the same story without a worry, unless the later book reads exactly the same as the older book with small changes. The Super Bowl is copywrited, why you always see it with the little symbol after in the paper, the papers don't have to pay the NFL to have it in an article unless they don't include the symbol.

Basically you can copy entire paragraphs of a book in your story and most authors won't care so long as it's not the same story. Some authors are anal about copywrite but even those won't care if you say, talk about star wars in your story, like two people going to watch star wars for the 20th time and ending up having sex in the theatre.

If it is the backdrop to something else you are fine, if you have lucas stardestroyer saving the universe aided by two droids a big hairy thing a princess and a scruffy looking nerf herder you are so being sued.

 

[CopperSkink]

So, say you write, "You never go ass-to-mouth," in your story (I just got finished watching Clerks 2). Everyone posting in this thread, each being an editor, has guaranteed to have said the same thing at least five times before Clerks 2, yet anyone who hears it afterwords thinks straight to the movie, so now we have to watch our tongues about saying, "You never go ass-to-mouth"? Not happening. Just like you can't pin anyone down for saying "I'll be back." "Use the Force, Luke," however, is a bit more specific, as is, "One ring to rule them all."

I rip off published shit all the time. It's pop-culture reference. It's a bit cheesy, but you want to make your audience laugh as well as bring some kind of relativity to what your character is like. Mentioning Star Wars, like it's been said, isn't a crime. It only betrays the exact nature and time frame of your universe. For example, the show "Friends." They may play Mozart pieces as fit the situations, but Jennifer Aniston's character doesn't blather on about how she just saw the latest Brad Pitt movie for the fifth time in theaters. Mentioning your pop culture items tells the reader that your setting is fairly modern and up-do-date with the computer age, as opposed to the Stone Ages time or Lesotho, Africa. Still, author's prerogative. Free advertising.

Buuuttt...

The NFL doesn't... nevermind; screw the reference. It's like this: This is Literotica, an open-source, free trade or whatever, story site. Translation: No money involved. We, the authors, are not making money by using the concepts we steal from the outside world, we're just blatantly plagiarizing ideas for our own, and our audience's, amusement. The owners of said ideas could care less; it's the same as if you're in a play about some Disney movie or another. I was; I played the second-tallest backup elephant chorus. Three situations: One, you call it, "The Jungle Book," and you don't charge admission. Two: You call it, "The Jungle Book," and you charge admission, and you lease the rights to make money off the concept. Three: You call it, "The Literary Masterpiece That Takes Place Amidst the Trees of India," and you hope Disney doesn't find out about it.

Do make whatever pop culture reference you want, quote a line from a movie or a book, or be inspired by a scene or an entire play to make something of your own. If you say "Star Wars," no one blinks an eye. If you have reason to say, "What? I said, 'she's a breath of fresh ass.' I mean, 'a breast of fresh air,'" then at the end of your story, the polite thing to do would be to make special mention that "'Wild Wild West' is copyright someone else; I'm not clever enough to come up with something so witty when faced with the bare bottom of Salma Heyek."

Do not "Scary Movie parts 1-4" your way through your literary career. There's such a thing as watching Fistful of Dollars and deciding you want to start your own epic adventure with a four-inch Smith & Wesson, but write your own scenes; make your characters significantly different in number, personality, and appearance to the original; and if there's something in there you have to have the same as the original, take your hat off to the guy that owns the franchise you're ripping off after you're done.

 

[knighttakesrook]

pop culture

All these Star Wars references reminded me of George Lucas suing about the Strategic Defense Initiative being called the "Star Wars Defense System." Pretty funny stuff. Its not like George Lucas ever borrowed an idea. Well, perhaps from Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, etc., etc.

Not that I'm knocking Lucas -- I liked the first trilogy.

But if you would like to read my story and see if I stold anything, I'm going to post it soon.

The title is "Sister Sherlock."

It is purely a coincidence that AC Doyle chose that name for his popular Poe/Dupin-inspired detective over one hundred twenty years ago.

 

[sr71plt]

This Star Wars stuff is trademark talk, not copyright talk. Two different animals.

 

[CopyCarver]

The title is "Sister Sherlock."

It is purely a coincidence that AC Doyle chose that name for his popular Poe/Dupin-inspired detective over one hundred twenty years ago.

Don't worry - titles can't be copyrighted. You could title it War and Peace if you wanted to, and nobody could give you any legal grief.

 

[sr71plt]

Don't worry - titles can't be copyrighted. You could title it War and Peace if you wanted to, and nobody could give you any legal grief.

Again, you are confusing copyright with trademark. You couldn't name it just anything you like. "Star Wars," for instance, is trademarked. You couldn't use that name in any commercial mode except for literary criticism.

And this is all in U.S. terms. The UK system of intellectual property rights protection is completely different from the U.S. system. The UK doesn't have formal copyright procedures at all.

 

[knighttakesrook]

copyright

I read AC Doyle's autobiography once. I thought it was pretty interesting, but then again I am a huge fan of his.

When he started publishing Holmes there was no formal agreement between the US and UK, so for a while he got cheated out of a major portion of his royalties, although one US company was generous enough to pay him anyway.

I bet international law can be a labyrinth, even with the agreements in place, but I suppose that's why people have agents.

Another funny trademark issue: McDonald's trying to claim the word "McDonald's." Isn't that like the Scottish version of Smith, or something? Well, I suppose that is a tricky one because Smith is also a Scottish name.

 

[CopperSkink]

I'm going to write an epic and name it "WTF" so I can sue anyone who uses it subsequently.

McDonalds? Who the fuck do they think they are? Now no one can sing "Old McDonald's Farm"?

 

[CopyCarver]

Again, you are confusing copyright with trademark. You couldn't name it just anything you like. "Star Wars," for instance, is trademarked. You couldn't use that name in any commercial mode except for literary criticism.

And this is all in U.S. terms. The UK system of intellectual property rights protection is completely different from the U.S. system. The UK doesn't have formal copyright procedures at all.

OK, I'll respond this time--and this time only, mainly because I am concerned that someone might actually think you know what you're talking about and be led astray.

(1) The UK not only formal copyright but also originated the entire modern concept of copyright inThe modern concept of copyright originated in the United Kingdom, in the year 1710, with the Statute of Anne. Current copyright statutes of the UK are contained in the Amended 1988 Copyright, Designs, and Patent Acts of 1988. Penalties for violating UK copyright are every bit as severe as are the penalties of the US.

(2) Writers not only CAN use a title such as Star Wars, but have done so on several occasions, and hundreds of newspapers and broadcasters rather routinely used the name "Star Wars" when referring to the Strategic Defense Initiative of the 1980s. Not a single individual or corporation was prosecuted--because they hadn't done anything remotely illegal.

Some of the fine points of copyright law and trademark law are complex, but much of both consists of black-letter law that has been repeatedly upheld by the courts. Perhaps you'd like to contact the Supreme Court and tell them they're wrong?

 

[sr71plt]

I do know what I'm talking about, and so can anyone else who wants to check the horse's mouth on this.

The point of the trademarking of "Star Wars" is that it can't be used in a commercial venture playing off the movie characters, settings, plotlines without risk of successful lawsuit. The U.S. government can use any name it wants too for anything, because it's not engaged in commercial marketing. If the term is being used by someone other than the trademark owner for related commercial ventures, suit isn't automatic; the owner has to file suit.

The UK does have copyright protections, but it has no copyright registration.

UK copyright information can be found at:

<http://www.cla.co.uk> the UK Copyright Licensing Agency

<http://www.editor.net> the British Copyright Council

<http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk> the government-sponsored UK intellectual property information Web site.

<http://www.patent.gov.uk> see the copyright section of the UK Patent Office Web site.

For U.S. copyright, check <http://www.copyright.gov>

For Australia: <http://www.copyright.org.au>

For Canada: <http://laws.justice.gc.ca>

For India: <http://www.goodnewsindia.com>

For Ireland: <http://www.irlgov.ie>

For New Zealand: <http://www.copyright.org.nz>

Online tutorials on U.S. copyright can be found at <http://www.lib.utsystem.edu> and <http://publishers.org>

U.S. Trademark can be checked out at the U.S. Patent and Trademark office site at <http://www.uspto.gov> or the International Trademark Association Web site <http://inta.gov>, which also maintains an updated list of trademarked names rendered how you would need to render them in your writing.

For useful articles on U.S. copyright, plagiarism, and contracts, check out the Writing World Web site at <http://writing.world.com>

Another useful advice site on U.S. copyright and trademarks can be found at the Nolo Law Center's Web site at <http://www.nolo.com>

current U.S. copyright and trademark laws can be tracked down at <http://www.findlaw.com>

To check if a book is in the U.S. public domain, check the Gutenberg Project site at <http://www.promo.net>

The U.S. Library of Congress online catalog can be searched for existing book titles registered in the United States at <http://www.catalog.loc.gov>

For a chart explaining when works go into the U.S. public domain, check <http://www.unc.edu>

Photograph copyright owners can be searched at Photographer's Index, <http://www.photographersindex.com>

To see if a song's lyrics are in the U.S. public domain, check the Public Domain Information Project <http://www.pdinfo.com>

Song ownership can be checked on the various musician union/association Web sites

<http://www.ascap.com>

<http://www.bmi.com>

<http://www.sesac.com>


So, Copy Carver, folks don't have to watch us spit at each other. They can check what they are interested in concerning copyright (which, as I said, are very different between the U.S. and UK markets) and trademarking out for themselves.

I know it's your way to assume you know everything and I don't know anything, but you don't know everything (including about what I know) just because you are a snotty self-appointed "expert" in everything.

 

[CopyCarver]

Your presumption that I think I know everything is just one of many “facts” that you have totally misinterpreted in your role as self-appointed role as the world’s foremost expert on every subject known to humankind. What I DO think is that U.S. statutes, dozens of federal court decisions, the policies of the U.S. Copyright Office and the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office tend to trump your whims.

“Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases” and “Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed” are both verbatim quotes from the U.S. Copyright Office’s website.

Trademark CAN offer more protection of a title than copyright, but trademark protection is limited in scope and it is subject to very specific predicating conditions, both in its issuance and in degree of protection that it affords.

Book, film, TV show, and music title are trademark protectable if and only if the title or titles have achieved “secondary meaning,” if the title is “broadly known,” if there is significant likelihood of confusion caused by use by another party and/or there is clear intent of the secondary user to create such confusion, or if the “commercial magnetism” is likely to be “tarnished or blurred.”

Ironically, all of these points are covered in two of the very sources you cited, but obviously didn’t understand. The "horses's mouth" provides far better information than a horse's ass.

If someone wrote a knockoff of “Star Wars” that a “reasonable man” [sorry about that, ladies—the inherent sexism is the law’s phrasing, not mine] then he or she could be sued for trademark violation—and would deserve it. If, however, someone used the title Star Wars for a book or article about SDI, or a feud between two famous entertainers or athletes, or any type of material that could not reasonably be confused with the Star Wars films there would be no “likelihood of confusion” with the Star Wars films, and trademark would create no more barriers than it does to people who use Ford or Microsoft or any other trademark in book titles.

Feel free to keep ranting and raving to your heart's content, but don't expect any more responses. You're going back on ignore--from which you temporarily emerged only because four people e-mailed me amd asked that I tried to clarify some of the misinformation you were peddling.

 

[sr71plt]

I provided the capability for anyone interested to check it all out for themselves (well, until Lady C deletes the URLs--then anyone can PM me and get the extensive list of resource links). They don't have to filter between either of us.

You can (and will, I'm sure) continue grandstanding to your heart's desire.

 

[CopperSkink]

This is starting to look like a Scouries thread, except I'm not quite ready to vomit yet.

I'm assuming that since the both of you are professionals, you'll be able to conduct yourselves professionally? This isn't the author's hangout, this is the editor's forum, where prospective authors are coming to ask us for their help. Is this really how we want to appear to them?

 

[sr71plt]

This is starting to look like a Scouries thread, except I'm not quite ready to vomit yet.

I'm assuming that since the both of you are professionals, you'll be able to conduct yourselves professionally? This isn't the author's hangout, this is the editor's forum, where prospective authors are coming to ask us for their help. Is this really how we want to appear to them?

Ah, no CopperSkink. CopyCarver and Snooper have been snotty and dismissive toward me in this room since day one. Although on what evidence of their own professional standing--or editorial expertise--I have no idea.

So, we're not really at the mutually accepted professional standing thingee yet.

As far as authors coming to this room for help, that's been a spotty at best prospect for at least a couple of years, I'm afraid. All of the mechanisms here have pretty much imploded. Everyone I edit for here has come to me directly and there's no pretense of a trained editor pool available through Lit.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

You lot remind me of a foreign worker in a UK factory whose command of English was less than perfect.

He said, "You think I know fuck nothing. I tell you I know fuck ALL!"

He was then utterly confused when everyone collapsed laughing.

 

[knighttakesrook]

I nearly forgot the funniest trademark story of them all.

Does any one else remember this or am I just making it up?

A couple of years ago -- perhaps, as many as ten or so -- I forget who was in the White House -- some young man trademarked the US Presidential Seal.

I don't know if he exploited some loophole, or if someone at the trademark office bungled things up. And I don't remember how the issue was resolved, but it made national news.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... A couple of years ago -- perhaps, as many as ten or so -- I forget who was in the White House -- some young man trademarked the US Presidential Seal. ...

I heard that the inventors of J a v a s c r i p t were suing the Indonesian government for naming one of their islands in breach of their trademark.

 

[knighttakesrook]

Starbucks too?

 

[knighttakesrook]

What about all those cities in England whose names where misappropriated by America. Did they think that the "new" would throw anyone off?

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Everyone posting in this thread, each being an editor, has guaranteed to have said the same thing at least five times before Clerks 2, yet anyone who hears it afterwords thinks straight to the movie, so now we have to watch our tongues about saying, "You never go ass-to-mouth"? Not happening. Just like you can't pin anyone down for saying "I'll be back." "Use the Force, Luke," however, is a bit more specific, as is, "One ring to rule them all."

No, I haven't actually. I may have said "dick" or "cunt", but never these words, and never is this precise order.

And so your "guarantee" is hereby nullified.

Just for the record. Leaving now, I see a rock I can crawl back under.

Best, ya'll. Keep posting so I can interject once in awhile, randomly. I like random.