Editor Could Use Help With Pesky Semi-Colons

[AsylumSeeker]

I know a while back SR suggested turning off MS-Word's grammar function. And I would have except that it does sometimes bring to my attention grammatical errors that I might have otherwise missed. But now I'm seeing where writers are submitting stories who have done their level best to minimize errors before the editing process using these same tools, and I praise them for their efforts. But I'm seeing a lot of semi-colons, which I know the grammar feature of Word suggests quite regularly.

Okay, having stated my cause, can anyone assist a humble editor as to the correct use? Is the Word grammar checker a POS (piece of - uh - shiza) or am I not seeing things clearly? Remove the annoying green line and in many cases the wording looks good to me, leaving me to wonder if I'm wrong or if Word is just friggin' insane!?

Here's what I think I know of semi-colons; they join two incomplete sentences. Something like this anyway. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Thoughts? Ideas? Better yet, suggestions? Kill Bill Gates? <just an expression, not an actual intent.

 

[sr71plt]

Semicolons join two, very-closely related COMPLETE sentences. They must both have both subjects and verbs (although the subject could be "understood," like in any sentence). If one isn't a complete sentence, a semicolon isn't appropriate.

Semicolons are also used for a series in which the series elements already have commas: "Her eyes were blue; her dress was red, green, and black; and her disposition was scarlett."

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Semicolons join two, very-closely related COMPLETE sentences. They must both have both subjects and verbs (although the subject could be "understood," like in any sentence). If one isn't a complete sentence, a semicolon isn't appropriate.

Semicolons are also used for a series in which the series elements already have commas: "Her eyes were blue; her dress was red, green, and black; and her disposition was scarlett."

Thanks SR for responding, but I failed miserably at English in high school. Yet I managed to CLEP six hours at the college level by just going with what "sounds" correct (I used to read a whole lot).

Okay, here's a line from a story I'm curently writing (yes, caught up with the edits).

“You hunger for men now that you’ve had a taste,” he began to realize, recalling the ease by which he’d lured her there.

Word wants me to replace the comma after "realize" with a semi-colon, and my gut says it's okay as currently written. I know this is only Lit, not like I'm writing for the NYT or anything, but I still try to get it right. Is Word wrong, or am I?

Thanks in advance.

 

[CopyCarver]

Word is wrong. You and the author are correct. There is no subject in [recalling the ease by which he’d lured her there]. Additionally, it relates directly to [he began to realize].

You can call STET on it.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Word is wrong. You and the author are correct. There is no subject in [recalling the ease by which he’d lured her there]. Additionally, it relates directly to [he began to realize].

You can call STET on it.

Hey, CC! Been awhile. Thanks for the input. I need to develop more self-confidence as I'm right more than I'm wrong, not sure why I have all these self-doubts. And again, not the NYT or anything.

 

[CopyCarver]

Hey, CC! Been awhile. Thanks for the input. I need to develop more self-confidence as I'm right more than I'm wrong, not sure why I have all these self-doubts. And again, not the NYT or anything.

I haven't been around much lately. Real life isn't leaving me much spare time. It's good to know that all the bases are being covered.

 

[_Lynn_]

“You hunger for men now that you’ve had a taste,” he began to realize, recalling the ease by which he’d lured her there.

My first thought here is that 'he began to realize' isn't a dialogue tag.

Maybe sr will come along and help us.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My first thought here is that 'he began to realize' isn't a dialogue tag.

Maybe sr will come along and help us.

Its not the best dialogue tag but popular authors like David Morrell advocate it and other tags like it.

 

[_Lynn_]

Its not the best dialogue tag but popular authors like David Morrell advocate it and other tags like it.

Interesting, JBJ.

 

[CopyCarver]

My first thought here is that 'he began to realize' isn't a dialogue tag. QUOTE]

True, but it can function as a dialogue tag, assuming that [he] has been previously identified, or is implicit. [he began to realize] provides more information about the thought process that produced the conclusion than a simple [he said] or [he answered]. Ultimately, it all revolves around the context, which we can't discern from the snippet.

 

[_Lynn_]

True, but it can function as a dialogue tag, assuming that [he] has been previously identified, or is implicit. [he began to realize] provides more information about the thought process that produced the conclusion than a simple [he said] or [he answered]. Ultimately, it all revolves around the context, which we can't discern from the snippet.

I would lose the tag, and expand a bit on the last part to make it two sentences instead of one.

But everyone is different.

 

[CopyCarver]

And that would work very well.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

My first thought here is that 'he began to realize' isn't a dialogue tag.

Maybe sr will come along and help us.

For the good of all I'll fall on my sword and confess my ignorance - what's a "dialogue tag" ? Hmmm, may be scaring away potential writers from using me as an editor, but I'd rather be educated than otherwise.

 

[_Lynn_]

For the good of all I'll fall on my sword and confess my ignorance - what's a "dialogue tag" ? Hmmm, may be scaring away potential writers from using me as an editor, but I'd rather be educated than otherwise.

"It's raining out," she said.

"Did you remember your umbrella," she asked.

"I don't mind getting wet," she replied.

sr had a post about this a while back. He can explain it far better than I can.

 

[CopyCarver]

For the good of all I'll fall on my sword and confess my ignorance - what's a "dialogue tag" ? Hmmm, may be scaring away potential writers from using me as an editor, but I'd rather be educated than otherwise.

"Dialogue tag" are essentially just attributions--anything that identifies who is speaking. A certain number of them are certainly needed to prevent speaker confusion, especially in lengthy exchanges of dialogue, but they should usually be used as sparingly as possible. Half a page of "he saids" and "she saids" can switch most readers to another story post haste.

 

[sr71plt]

My first thought here is that 'he began to realize' isn't a dialogue tag.

Maybe sr will come along and help us.

I agree that it isn't a good dialogue tag. You can't vocalize it. Could be fixed with a "he said as he began to realize." Or it should be rewritten. Just because popular authors get away with such things doesn't mean they are good to do on purpose. This one is particularly not good to do--runs off away from a vocalization altogether.

 

[_Lynn_]

"Dialogue tag" are essentially just attributions--anything that identifies who is speaking. A certain number of them are certainly needed to prevent speaker confusion, especially in lengthy exchanges of dialogue, but they should usually be used as sparingly as possible. Half a page of "he saids" and "she saids" can switch most readers to another story post haste.

I had a novel I was going to read a few months ago. Though it didn't start out great, I figured I would give it a chance and go on. All of the "he said/she said" tags distracted me so much I never finished it. How dull and boring.

 

[CopyCarver]

I had a novel I was going to read a few months ago. Though it didn't start out great, I figured I would give it a chance and go on. All of the "he said/she said" tags distracted me so much I never finished it. How dull and boring.

Exactly! And it gets even worse when writers try a bit too hard to avoid "said" with synonyms like expostulated, crowed, harrumphed, etc.

The worst example I ever saw was a writer (a pro, who should have known better) who coined the word "ramificationized."

 

[_Lynn_]

Exactly! And it gets even worse when writers try a bit too hard to avoid "said" with synonyms like expostulated, crowed, harrumphed, etc.

The worst example I ever saw was a writer (a pro, who should have known better) who coined the word "ramificationized."

Harrumphed makes me think of a staid old man sitting in his library, smoking a pipe. Crowed reminds me of cackling. The last two are just bad.

There are other ways to define a speaker to keep a story flowing besides a basic tag.

 

[CopyCarver]

There are other ways to define a speaker to keep a story flowing besides a basic tag.

Absolutely. Simply making a character do something concurrent with his/her speech does the job nicely. Ideally, it should be something that contributes to the plot or characterization, but even taking a sip of coffee or other trivial activity will work. Letting one protagonist call the other by name is also effective, so long as it isn't overdone to the point of becoming annoying.

Too, whole flocks of attributions aren't even needed. If we know that John is speaking, we can reasonably assume that the response is Marsha's if they are the only characters "on stage" at the moment.

 

[_Lynn_]

Absolutely. Simply making a character do something concurrent with his/her speech does the job nicely. Ideally, it should be something that contributes to the plot or characterization, but even taking a sip of coffee or other trivial activity will work. Letting one protagonist call the other by name is also effective, so long as it isn't overdone to the point of becoming annoying.

Too, whole flocks of attributions aren't even needed. If we know that John is speaking, we can reasonably assume that the response is Marsha's if they are the only characters "on stage" at the moment.

Right, and interjecting their name reaffirms that when needed.

When there's dialogue between people in-real-life, one of them is always doing something. Whether it's shuffling their feet, leaning on a fence, or rocking on the porch. Each one fits the 'show not tell' too.

 

[butters]

“You hunger for men now that you’ve had a taste,” he began to realize, recalling the ease by which he’d lured her there.

Word wants me to replace the comma after "realize" with a semi-colon, and my gut says it's okay as currently written. I know this is only Lit, not like I'm writing for the NYT or anything, but I still try to get it right. Is Word wrong, or am I?

Thanks in advance.

definitely no to the semi-colon there.

but you did misuse it in your OP when you wrote this:

Here's what I think I know of semi-colons; they join two incomplete sentences. Something like this anyway. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Where you used the semi, it ought to have been a full-on colon, used to break between a statement and the explanation/example/extrapolation of that statement.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

definitely no to the semi-colon there.

but you did misuse it in your OP when you wrote this:

Here's what I think I know of semi-colons; they join two incomplete sentences. Something like this anyway. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Where you used the semi, it ought to have been a full-on colon, used to break between a statement and the explanation/example/extrapolation of that statement.

Damn, maybe should give up editing alogether <ssigh>

Just trying to do the right thing for the writers, now realizing I know less than I knew.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

I was taught that (in the Queen's English, though it was the King's English at the time) that a semicolon is:

A punctuation mark consisting of a dot placed above a comma, indicating a discontinuity of grammatical construction greater than that indicated by a comma but less than that indicated by a full stop.

In practice this means that the two sentences were in some way connected, but neither was a dependent clause of the other.

For example:
Here's what I think I know of semi-colons; they join two incomplete sentences.
This is a correct use of the semicolon, since either half is a complete sentence with a main verb. The statement in the second half is, however, false; the sentences need to be capable of standing alone as grammatically valid sentences.

 

[butters]

Hmmm - as far as I was concerned the correct use of a colon is before a list, a summary, or a quote. Doesn't the second half of that sentence fall under the category of a summary? I would definitely say it did.

Again, as I understand it, it would be correct to use a semi-colon in a list that already contains commas, and also where it can link two closely related but separate sentences.