Public Option: Fined/Jail if you don’t join; 50 percent Tax for Overweight, Smoker’s

[amicus]

In the Socialist style, the cost/benefit mechanism, this all makes sense in a logical and inhumane way.

All over the news; do your own search if you doubt.

As overweight people,(politically correct, not FAT), those who use Tobacco products and, of course, all the couch potato’s, and the Elderly (see death panels), consume the Lion’s share of benefits from the health system, whether it is Government or Private, it looks like you will pay more (or go to jail), should you fall into one of the above categories.

Most likely, (well, I am an optimist), the above won’t become part of the Bill when it is passed; if it is passed. But, that these issues are under discussion, in the Congress of the United States, might or should give pause to some who support socialized medicine.

Let’s hear it for the Usual Suspects, the European wannabee’s, who are certain that Socialized Medicine is the best thing since sliced bread!

Big round of applause! Deafening!

Amicus

 

[Songcatcher]

The matter is worse than that: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=675210

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Funny-- My private health insurer already charges you more if you're overweight, smoke, or have high blood pressure. And if you have a pre-existing condition, they just won't insure you at all.

Let's do try to remember that what we're talking about here in the Obama health plan is not a government takeover of the practice of medicine, but a government takeover of paying the bills. There's rather a large difference.

The essence of the plan is that you can not be turned down or discriminated against for a pre-existing condition.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

There was a little slide show on Yahoo the other day about a mural a woman painted on a gas station wall to commemorate the insurance-related death of her 39 year-old husband, who had kidney cancer.

They were fully covered by his employee health insurance, but the benefits topped out at some unreported figure, and from then on they just went into huge debt. Had to give up their home, their cars, and since he couldn't work, they had no money.

When they asked to get another opinion, the insurance company turned them down. The wife arranged for a consultation with another specialist on her own, but found that in order to get her husband's medical records for the new specialist to see, she would have to pay the hospital 73 cents a page. This for a record about a foot thick. She didn't have the money. Insurance wouldn't give her the money, and the hospital wouldn't release the records.

He died without ever seeing the other specialist.

The name of her mural is "73 Cents".

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]
They were fully covered by his employee health insurance, but the benefits topped out at some unreported figure, and from then on they just went into huge debt. Had to give up their home, their cars, and since he couldn't work, they had no money.[...]

Right now, "fully covered" means only whatever the insurance company says it does.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC begs the question again. ObamaCare isnt the answer to our fucked up healthcare system. ObamaCare isnt the answer becuz its the guvmint. The guvmint fucks almost everything up it manages.

Read James Q. Wilson's classic treatise about guvmint: BUREAUCRACY. He explains why guvmint is pre-ordained to fuck things up and cost too much money.

There is zero dialogue in this nation about whats the best way to provide adequate medical care. At this moment one side sez NO, and the other side sez MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY, ACCEPT IT OR GO TO JAIL.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

DOC begs the question again. ObamaCare isnt the answer to our fucked up healthcare system. ObamaCare isnt the answer becuz its the guvmint. The guvmint fucks almost everything up it manages.

Read James Q. Wilson's classic treatise about guvmint: BUREAUCRACY. He explains why guvmint is pre-ordained to fuck things up and cost too much money.

There is zero dialogue in this nation about whats the best way to provide adequate medical care. At this moment one side sez NO, and the other side sez MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY, ACCEPT IT OR GO TO JAIL.

I don't know. Social Security seems to work okay. I even get actual humans to answer my phone questions when I call up my local office. Try getting that from big business. ("Please make note of the following options as the phone tree has changed...")

FDA's underfunded, but still, they saved the USA from the Thalidomide disaster that hit the rest of the world back in the early 60's, and they routinely prevent more unnecessary deaths than the Department of Homeland Security could ever dream about. EPA's brought fishing back to the Chicago River and brought the city out from under the cloud of ozone warnings that used to plague us every summer. Dry cleaners and refineries can no longer pour their slop into our drinking water.

And Medicare seems to function with an administrative cost of 3% while private insurance's overhead is more like 30%.

As a retiree of Big Pharma, I have a great health plan for my family that only costs me about $5000 a year, and I worry about how long that can last before they yank it. If the gov can insure me for less than 5 grand per annum, then I'm certainly willing to pay that in taxes.

As an alternative to government, James, what do you suggest?

 

[Songcatcher]

http://fluscam.com/Affidavit.html

 

[amicus]

For those who never heard of Thalidomide or have forgotten:

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/jaeger/thalidomide.htm

My understanding is that the FDA approved the drug for use in the USA.

Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme identical to the one Bernie Madoff will spend the rest of his life in prison for running.

Since SS was instituted in the 30's by the FDR administration, every working American has been forced to pay a percentage of every pay check into the social security fund.

In that period of time the average lifespan of an American was lower than the benefit date of social security, many, if not most, passed away before they could collect a penny of their 'forced' investments in the program.

Even today, you can work and pay into the fund for forty years, from age 18 to 58, die, and never receive a cent on your 'forced' investment.

Just like the Madoff scheme, those forced to pay, support the beneficiaries at the end and if new suckers are not forced to pay, the entire scheme, like Madoff's would collapse overnight.

Social Security is bankrupt and general revenue taxation often goes to pay the obligations of the program to those who outlived the intentions of Roosevelt & Cronies.

Medicare, a remnant of the Great Society of LBJ in the 60's, is also Bankrupt.

Investment philosophy is to use money, usually from willing investors, not the forced tax variety, to invest in ventures that make money. Make enough money to protect the investor's contributions, but to reward those who manage the fund to increase the assets and reward those who invested.

Government does no such thing. They 'spend' the money as it comes in on non profit ventures, usually of a social nature, which provides few if any measureable benefits to anyone.

Critics of the American free enterprise system, gloating over the ability of government to force participation in social programs, turn to the free market and ask, in a superior tone, 'what would you recommend to replace government corruption?

The free market, my friend, the entrepreneurship of the individual who will not willing invest in a failing non profit organization, but follows the advice of that, 'invisible hand' in the market that chooses successful, for profit ventures, that perform as advertised and protect the investos initial investment and pay a return.

The pathetic apology that social security works, it does not, that medicare works, it does not and that the FDA is trustworthy, it is not, is the feeble attempt to support the failure of government to replace the market place.

This no longer becomes a discussion concerning the mechanics of government or the market; it is, as it always has been, a philosophical and economic argument between those who dream of a benificent command society, socialism, versus the values of a free market, which works and guarantees the individual freedoms of those who voluntarily invest in the future.

It is not a matter of choosing a system that works best, government does not work at all and a restricted, regulated and controlled free market can survive only so long until it is choked out of existence by overmanagement and high taxation.

Your freedom is what is at stake in this discussion; choose wisely.

Amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

" As an alternative to government, James, what do you suggest?"

DOC
Self-sufficiency. How it used to be in America. People survived by luck or pluck and the cooperation of family & neighbors.

 

[Huckleman2000]

" As an alternative to government, James, what do you suggest?"

DOC
Self-sufficiency. How it used to be in America. People survived by luck or pluck and the cooperation of family & neighbors.

In other words, "DON'T GET SICK" and "IF YOU DO, DIE QUICKLY," so you don't drag your family and friends with you.

 

[Dragonlipz]

I just wanna be on one of those the death panels alongside my buddy: Amicus......

 

[freshface]

For those who never heard of Thalidomide or have forgotten:

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/jaeger/thalidomide.htm

My understanding is that the FDA approved the drug for use in the USA.


Amicus

Nope. FDA pharmacologist Frances Oldham Kelsey refused to approve an application by Richardson Merrell to market thalidomide in the US. "Despite pressure from thalidomide's manufacturer, Kelsey persisted in requesting additional information to explain an English study that documented a nervous system side effect." JFK awarded her the President's Award for Distinguished Federal Civilian Service for her role. Do try to get at least some of your "facts" right.

Oh, the horrors of big government, keeping the poor businessman from doing whatever he wants. And I'm sure it would stick in your craw to note that she started her PhD in 1936 and earned her MD while on faculty at the University of Chicago.

 

[xssve]

Thalidomide is still widely available and in widespread use in Africa.

They didn't have to stop making it, they just can't sell it in the US.

That is the glory of the free market system.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The story of Frances Kelsey, the FDA examiner who withstood massive pressure by Big Pharma to approve Thalidomide in the USA, is well known to people in the industry.

From Amicus's (apparently unexamined) reference:

"Kelsey withstood the pressure of the drug manufacturers to push through the approval of the drug."

"Thalidomide affected more than 10,000 babies, mainly in Europe and Canada, while in the United States, just a few women gave birth to "thalidomide babies." These were women who had obtained the drug while living abroad, or who had participated in investigational studies. Dr. Frances Kelsey received the highest award for federal civilian service from President Kennedy (see Figure 1), and on July 15, 1962, she was hailed by the Washington Post as the "heroine…[whose] skepticism and stubbornness…prevented what could have been an appalling American tragedy, the birth of hundreds or indeed thousands of armless and legless children7."

When it comes to choosing who makes your health decisions--the people you elect or the people who make money off your illness--I know which side I come down on.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

" As an alternative to government, James, what do you suggest?"

DOC
Self-sufficiency. How it used to be in America. People survived by luck or pluck and the cooperation of family & neighbors.

Yeah. People used to shit in a hole and wipe their asses with corncobs too. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Luck and pluck is fine up to the day you come down with kidney cancer. Then you'd better pray that a neighbor or family member is an oncological nephrologist.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Thalidomide is still widely available and in widespread use in Africa.

They didn't have to stop making it, they just can't sell it in the US.

That is the glory of the free market system.

Thalidomide has legitimate uses as an anti-convulsant and anti-epileptic drug in children, and is scheduled to be (or maybe already has been) approved for limited use in the US. I know, because we almost manufactured it where I worked, and there was a lot of talk in the company about whether they wanted to handle such a public relations hot potato.

In the end, they decided not to. Someone else makes it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yeah. People used to shit in a hole and wipe their asses with corncobs too. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Luck and pluck is fine up to the day you come down with kidney cancer. Then you'd better pray that a neighbor or family member is an oncological nephrologist.

One of the principles of rehab is to help people be as self-sufficient as possible. If youre self-sufficient youre not dependent on do-gooders and bureaucrats. The idea is to drive the bus and go where you wanna go, not be a passenger and go where some assclown takes you.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

One of the principles of rehab is to help people be as self-sufficient as possible. If youre self-sufficient youre not dependent on do-gooders and bureaucrats. The idea is to drive the bus and go where you wanna go, not be a passenger and go where some assclown takes you.

That's the spirit! Tell all these sick people to rehab themselves! Learn how to do your own vasectomy! Take out your appendix at home!

You can still do what you want with a national health service. You want to pay to go to a private doctor? Go. You want to be untreated? Don't go. You want to rely on friends and family members? Help yourself.

The only difference, is no one's refused because they don't have enough cash.

And that, to me, is real freedom.

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]The only difference, is no one's refused because they don't have enough cash.

And that, to me, is real freedom.

Exactly.
I own my condo outright, my car's paid off, no debt to speak of... I can live quite happily now on less than $20K, maybe less than $15K. I use my free time for artistic pursuits that don't pay much, but give me (and others) a great deal of satisfaction.

The only wrench in the works is my healthcare. I can't get insured, because of pre-existing conditions.

If I want health insurance, I need to find a job that, first of all, offers it, and second, pays enough besides. I have to take a job I don't want, make money I don't need, give up work that I find fulfilling, cause myself stress that's unhealthy for me, and basically be a miserable prole.

Some freedom.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

In the Socialist style, the cost/benefit mechanism, this all makes sense in a logical and inhumane way.

All over the news; do your own search if you doubt.

As overweight people,(politically correct, not FAT), those who use Tobacco products and, of course, all the couch potato’s, and the Elderly (see death panels), consume the Lion’s share of benefits from the health system, whether it is Government or Private, it looks like you will pay more (or go to jail), should you fall into one of the above categories.

Most likely, (well, I am an optimist), the above won’t become part of the Bill when it is passed; if it is passed. But, that these issues are under discussion, in the Congress of the United States, might or should give pause to some who support socialized medicine.

Let’s hear it for the Usual Suspects, the European wannabee’s, who are certain that Socialized Medicine is the best thing since sliced bread!

Big round of applause! Deafening!

Amicus

You forgot the 24 weeks old preemies in the NICU. Talk about lion's share of health care. It's crazy-expensive. Hospitals everywhere are actually adding on NICU's... because they've become so profitable.

Of course, if we had "socialized" medicine, they'd just let those babies die instead of trying to save them. Right?

 

[R. Richard]

Thalidomide has legitimate uses as an anti-convulsant and anti-epileptic drug in children, and is scheduled to be (or maybe already has been) approved for limited use in the US. I know, because we almost manufactured it where I worked, and there was a lot of talk in the company about whether they wanted to handle such a public relations hot potato.

In the end, they decided not to. Someone else makes it.

The 'Thalidomide babies' were the result of a pregnant women, with a vitamin B deficiency, using Thalidomide. However, by the time they found out about the vitamin B deficiency thing, it was too late. [By the way, I used to work with a Thalidomide baby.]

 

[freshface]

The 'Thalidomide babies' were the result of a pregnant women, with a vitamin B deficiency, using Thalidomide. However, by the time they found out about the vitamin B deficiency thing, it was too late. [By the way, I used to work with a Thalidomide baby.]

Thalidomide had nothing to do with vitamin B. It was marketed to help control morning sickness and as a sleep aid. The drug itself is teratogenic and capable of crossing the placenta. The birth defects resulted because it turned off the genes necessary for limb formation.

 

[lance gt]

"Oh Canada," the place where we don't worry about being sick and have to pay for it. As an example, I just had a bone scan, two nerve tests and 5 MRI's. I didn't pay for any of them. I just showed them my card and had it done. Where in the states can you do that? Why wouldn't you want to do that? Is being healthy such an abissmal thing to Americans? I can't understand the concept of 'I'm alright, I'm healthy, I have a medical plan I can afford. Oh, you're sick, no plan? Too fucking bad, sorry about your luck, die already.' Hypocracy runs rampant down there doesn't it. Get a taste of terrorism and everyone's a proud American and let's defend ourselves and join together. The person standing next to you is sick and it's sorry, not on my dime. Your nation is crumbling to pieces and as long as you each have a place to stand and call your own, you feel justified in flailing each other until the last one is standing. Damn proud to be Canadian.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

"Oh Canada," the place where we don't worry about being sick and have to pay for it. As an example, I just had a bone scan, two nerve tests and 5 MRI's. I didn't pay for any of them. I just showed them my card and had it done. Where in the states can you do that? Why wouldn't you want to do that? Is being healthy such an abissmal thing to Americans? I can't understand the concept of 'I'm alright, I'm healthy, I have a medical plan I can afford. Oh, you're sick, no plan? Too fucking bad, sorry about your luck, die already.' Hypocracy runs rampant down there doesn't it. Get a taste of terrorism and everyone's a proud American and let's defend ourselves and join together. The person standing next to you is sick and it's sorry, not on my dime. Your nation is crumbling to pieces and as long as you each have a place to stand and call your own, you feel justified in flailing each other until the last one is standing. Damn proud to be Canadian.

But that's silly. You are Canadian simply by the accident of your place of birth. I am American for the same reason. And we are, neither of us, Rwandan or Ethiopian or Chinese, simply because we were born on a piece of land someone said was "America" or "Canada."

There is no HUMAN reason that all HUMANS should not have equal access to the basics... food, water, and shelter, followed by personal and financial security and health and well-being. All of them. American, Canadian, Chinese or ... whatever.

These are the basic HUMAN rights, and all humans should have them, regardless of their place of birth. Basing anything on where you're born is crazy... but we do it anyway. Crazy humans.