Mandatory Health Insurance?

[Boxlicker101]

Here is something liberal Dems are up to:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090908/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_overhaul

I doubt that such a law would pass Constitutional muster. It's not at all a bad idea to have health insurance, but should it be mandatory? The only mandatory insurance I know of is liability insurance for owners of vehicles, and that's to protect persons who might be injured by that owner. There is no requirement to have collision or theft insurance, and many owners of old cars don't do so.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Here is something liberal Dems are up to:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090908/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_overhaul

I doubt that such a law would pass Constitutional muster. It's not at all a bad idea to have health insurance, but should it be mandatory? The only mandatory insurance I know of is liability insurance for owners of vehicles, and that's to protect persons who might be injured by that owner. There is no requirement to have collision or theft insurance, and many owners of old cars don't do so.

The current plan by the Democrats is to fine you if you dont get health insurance. Theyre also talking about sticking the MDs, hospitals, labs, and insurance companies with heavy fee's to pay for the Mexicans, becuz they cant fine Mexicans who work illegally.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090908/D9AJCL500.html

 

[amicus]

A $3,800 fine if you can afford healthcare but choose not to purchase it or become a government ward.

Now, what country am I living in this year?

Amicus

 

[TE999]

A $3,800 fine if you can afford healthcare but choose not to purchase it or become a government ward.

Now, what country am I living in this year?

Amicus

For shame, ami. The Politbureau...um...I mean Congress knows what's best for you even if you don't. We're gonna be so healthy in this country it'll amaze the world, not to mention ourselves. No more overweight people, no more couch potatoes, no more unsupervised play for children (they may be hurt and that's not healthy),everyone's gonna exercise (group calesthenics every morning) and everyone's gonna live to be 100+ years old, working and paying taxes until they die to support this Utopia we once called America.

 

[Boxlicker101]

For shame, ami. The Politbureau...um...I mean Congress knows what's best for you even if you don't. We're gonna be so healthy in this country it'll amaze the world, not to mention ourselves. No more overweight people, no more couch potatoes, no more unsupervised play for children (they may be hurt and that's not healthy),everyone's gonna exercise (group calesthenics every morning) and everyone's gonna live to be 100+ years old, working and paying taxes until they die to support this Utopia we once called America.

It's already 25 years past due but, better late than never.

 

[R. Richard]

Yawohl! This country needs more discipline.

Under my benevolent rule, happy, smiling [or else] workers would march to work each day, along spotless [or else] streets, singing approved marching songs. Happy, smiling [or else] mothers would wheel baby carriages to spotless [or else] parks or spotlessly clean [or else] auditoriums each day, along spotless [or else] streets. The mothers would then sing to the children approved songs [or else], glorifying the fatherland. At the gatherings, the mothers would engage in light exercise [or else], so that they could produce [or else] happy, healthy boys [for the Sturmabteilung] or girls to produce more happy, healthy [or else] children.

After work, the men would gather [or else] at appropriate places for an hour of calisthentics, bayonet training and/or hand-to-hand combat training ar high levels [or else.]

The possession of cigars, cigarettes, pipes and/or tobacco would be verboten,under penalty of death. Actually smoking would add torture, before death.

All of mine children would be equal, but the Aryans would be more equal, of course.

I would be Der Fuhrer, the benevolent of my paradise. All what is not mandatory, is verboten! Remember, Der Fuhrer is WATCHING!

You would enjoy living in my paradise [or else.]

 

[amicus]

R.Richard, I pose you a question that befuddles me...a little background first...

I can perhaps get my head around the defeated, devastated people of Russia, in 1917 succumbing to a Marxist Revolution. I can even understand some of what went on in defeated Germany, with reparation payments, a bankrupt economy, turning to a Party that promised prosperity and regeneration of the fatherland.

But I truly fail to understand those like Boxlicker, a free person, advocating self enslavement. Is it a genetic deficiency? Low IQ, just plain stupid?

I don't really understand thieves and criminals and bullies either, that percentage of every society that gives no respect to the rights and property of others.

Is it ethnic in origin? Scratch a Boxlicker and discover an Aryan? A Mongol, a Viking, A Zulu warrior?

Anticipate your response...



Amicus

 

[Huckleman2000]

Stop the circle jerk!
http://www.rivalfish.com/rivalroom/uploaded_images/Clio-CircleJerk-751056.jpg

 

[bronzeage]

Here is something liberal Dems are up to:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090908/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_overhaul

I doubt that such a law would pass Constitutional muster. It's not at all a bad idea to have health insurance, but should it be mandatory? The only mandatory insurance I know of is liability insurance for owners of vehicles, and that's to protect persons who might be injured by that owner. There is no requirement to have collision or theft insurance, and many owners of old cars don't do so.

What do you think that deduction on your paycheck labeled FICA is? A lot pf people said that would never pass Constitutional muster either.

Now the grandchildren of those people are waving signs at town hall meetings, screaming "Don't touch my Social Security!"

 

[R. Richard]

R.Richard, I pose you a question that befuddles me...a little background first...

I can perhaps get my head around the defeated, devastated people of Russia, in 1917 succumbing to a Marxist Revolution. I can even understand some of what went on in defeated Germany, with reparation payments, a bankrupt economy, turning to a Party that promised prosperity and regeneration of the fatherland.

But I truly fail to understand those like Boxlicker, a free person, advocating self enslavement. Is it a genetic deficiency? Low IQ, just plain stupid?

I don't really understand thieves and criminals and bullies either, that percentage of every society that gives no respect to the rights and property of others.

Is it ethnic in origin? Scratch a Boxlicker and discover an Aryan? A Mongol, a Viking, A Zulu warrior?

Anticipate your response...



Amicus

You simply fail to understand the process of 'self enslavement.' A child is born, grows up a bit, goes to school and has its head pumped full of enslavement. The child then goes into the working world and encounters more enslavement.

If the child lives in the tropics, the enslavement is not too much affair. Don't kill other people, don't steal from other people and, if worse comes to worse, live off fish and tropical plants.

If the child lives in the Mediterranean, the enslavement is a bit worse. Don't kill other people, don't steal from other people, do what the Tribune tells you and then live off the dole.

If the child lives in ancient Germany, the enslavement is very harsh. Plant your crops, nurture them through the season and then work from first light to total dark to harvest them, or starve during the winter. Don't kill other people unless they come to steal your food, don't steal from other people, because they'll kill you if you try. Do what the weather tells you to do, or die. Train your children well, because you depend on them to help you survive the winters of old age.

The Zulu Impis were pathetic warriors until Chaka trained them into a disciplined corps of bloody spears [or else!]

The Romans were a bit more disciplined, since Roma does have a sort of winter. The Roman legions ruled the world, until the underlying lack of discipline caused the Empire to collapse.

The Germans were the best soldiers of WW II. They were strong, disciplined and savage fighters,until their officer was killed, after which they milled about like the sheep they were. Toward the end of WW II, the Germans recognized some of the problem and began to use the Jägers, mainly from the forests of South Germany as leaders. The Jägers,who had to operate alone in the forests, showed the German troops how to function as semi-free slaves.

Thieves and criminals are simply those who reject the rules of society and seek to enslave others, perhaps as a rebellion against self slavery. Bullies seekto master the other slaves. Bullies do respect some of the slave rules,mainly because they want to live in a slave society, but as a master.

You cite, "... that percentage of every society that gives no respect to the rights and property of others." It would take many volumes to analyze the situation.

In English history, there is the legend of Robin Hood. [No one knows if there actually was a Robin Hood.] Robin Hood was a Saxon thief, who robbed the rich Normans and gave to the poor Saxons, thus excusing his crimes.

In Scottish history, there was Rob Roy Campbell-MacGregor, who stole from the English and gave his fellow Scots a bit of a break from the iron hand of English rule while they sought MacGregor. [He hid with the Campbells.]

If a thief steals from others just to enrich himself, he's obviously a criminal, fit for punishment. However, if he steals from others and uses a goodly portion of the stolen money [and King's deer] to build a power base, he can become a hero to the other slaves.

Sheep are slaves,under the leadership of the dominate males who fight to see who breeds. The flock has no real will, except for the dominate males and then pretty much only during breeding time.

Tigers, you find one at a time.

 

[Boxlicker101]

R.Richard, I pose you a question that befuddles me...a little background first...

I can perhaps get my head around the defeated, devastated people of Russia, in 1917 succumbing to a Marxist Revolution. I can even understand some of what went on in defeated Germany, with reparation payments, a bankrupt economy, turning to a Party that promised prosperity and regeneration of the fatherland.

But I truly fail to understand those like Boxlicker, a free person, advocating self enslavement. Is it a genetic deficiency? Low IQ, just plain stupid?

I don't really understand thieves and criminals and bullies either, that percentage of every society that gives no respect to the rights and property of others.

Is it ethnic in origin? Scratch a Boxlicker and discover an Aryan? A Mongol, a Viking, A Zulu warrior?

Anticipate your response...



Amicus

What on Earth do you mean? I have never advocated self-enslavement, and I would be opposed to the proposed legislation in my first post here.

BTW, the Russian Revolution wasn't Marxist when it happened. It was the overthrow of a corrupt royal family and their sycophants. The Marxists, being better organized, were able to take it over.

If you're wondering about my ethnicity, most of my ancestors came from northern Europe, and some of them were here to greet them, apparently being descended from Asians who came to America thousands of years earlier.

 

[Belegon]

you all are full of such bullshit.

Look up the real facts. We suck at health care for everyone except the top 5%. The World Health Organization barely has us in the top 40. And real universal health care would dramatically CUT costs, not increase them.

Doesn't matter. People are too afraid of backlash. Yes, any reform is better than quitting and running like Clinton did.

But we are gonna end up with a half-measure that doesn't accomplish the things we are truly capable of accomplishing.

Health care may not be a "right", but I do feel it is something that the richest and most affluent nation in human history should be able to provide for ALL its citizens.

And you all scream about liberalism when in reality, even the man I supported and you despise is more of a centrist than anything even close to far left.

Go back and listen to that jerk on the radio that dropped out/flunked out of SE Missouri state and ignore the advice of the Harvard Summa Cum Laude grad.

*shakes head*

I'm beginning to think this country deserves exactly what it is getting...

 

[Teloz]

Am I missing something in this thread?

Which section of the population doesn't have, can't afford, healthcare? The poorest!
If they can't afford health insurance, how will they pay a $3,800 fine? They can't!
Will that fine give them health cover? No!

As long as the US has people as blind and selfish as the opponents to universal healthcare like Amicus, the poor will get the shitty end of the stick every time.

I would be interested to know if Amicus' rhetoric would change if he were suddenly left penniless, with no job, and a long term illness like diabetes.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I've kept quiet until most of you have had your say. Now it's my turn.

The Healcare thing is a mess. This is why -

If the U.S. is to have universal health care it needs a pattern. So why not patten after Japan? The Japanese government sets prices for absolutely every ailment there is and that's what the doctors and drug companies get paid. (I wonder which lobbiests would have a field day with that one?)

Or they could pick England's NHS. But we've all heard the horror stories there. So the American public wouldn't stand for that kind of a mess.

And who the fuck is going to pay for universal health care? The Japanese have the most wonderful system in the world. The cost, however, is covered with high taxes. Pretty much the same situation in England.

Remember that the Budget Gods in Washington DC has said universal health care would cost $1,000,000,000,000 over ten years. Gulp!

So maybe the real problem with universal health care is (a) the rotten economy so no one really wants to pay for it and (b) the huge number of people in the U.S. Does either Japan or England have 300,000,000 people in their systems? Hell no. Nor do the Swedes or the French or anyone else.

The fucked up system we have grew up along with the American Society. It's a given in the U.S. that there are "haves" and "have nots," right? Why is Health Care any different?

Force all Americans to buy Health Insurance with fines? That's some insane idea that started with Hillary back during the Clinton years. Would that work? Teloz has it right. If you can't afford health insurance can your really afford to pay a $3800 fine?

So from both a social, as well as, an economic standpoint, universal health care makes no sense based on any reasonable patter we have to look at.

 

[Boxlicker101]

you all are full of such bullshit.

Look up the real facts. We suck at health care for everyone except the top 5%. The World Health Organization barely has us in the top 40. And real universal health care would dramatically CUT costs, not increase them.

Doesn't matter. People are too afraid of backlash. Yes, any reform is better than quitting and running like Clinton did.

But we are gonna end up with a half-measure that doesn't accomplish the things we are truly capable of accomplishing.

Health care may not be a "right", but I do feel it is something that the richest and most affluent nation in human history should be able to provide for ALL its citizens.

And you all scream about liberalism when in reality, even the man I supported and you despise is more of a centrist than anything even close to far left.

Go back and listen to that jerk on the radio that dropped out/flunked out of SE Missouri state and ignore the advice of the Harvard Summa Cum Laude grad.

*shakes head*

I'm beginning to think this country deserves exactly what it is getting...

Which Harvard graduate would that be? Both W and Obama earned post-graduate degrees from Harvard, but neither was a summa cum laude. (TeeHee. I said "cum")

 

[Boxlicker101]

I've kept quiet until most of you have had your say. Now it's my turn.

The Healcare thing is a mess. This is why -

If the U.S. is to have universal health care it needs a pattern. So why not patten after Japan? The Japanese government sets prices for absolutely every ailment there is and that's what the doctors and drug companies get paid. (I wonder which lobbiests would have a field day with that one?)

Or they could pick England's NHS. But we've all heard the horror stories there. So the American public wouldn't stand for that kind of a mess.

And who the fuck is going to pay for universal health care? The Japanese have the most wonderful system in the world. The cost, however, is covered with high taxes. Pretty much the same situation in England.

Remember that the Budget Gods in Washington DC has said universal health care would cost $1,000,000,000,000 over ten years. Gulp!

So maybe the real problem with universal health care is (a) the rotten economy so no one really wants to pay for it and (b) the huge number of people in the U.S. Does either Japan or England have 300,000,000 people in their systems? Hell no. Nor do the Swedes or the French or anyone else.

The fucked up system we have grew up along with the American Society. It's a given in the U.S. that there are "haves" and "have nots," right? Why is Health Care any different?

Force all Americans to buy Health Insurance with fines? That's some insane idea that started with Hillary back during the Clinton years. Would that work? Teloz has it right. If you can't afford health insurance can your really afford to pay a $3800 fine?

So from both a social, as well as, an economic standpoint, universal health care makes no sense based on any reasonable patter we have to look at.

Actually, the US government does set prices. Medicare has a comprehensive list of how much they will pay for about any procedure possible. I get statements from them sometimes when I have something done, and it gives a charged amount and an amount that Medicare pays and the provider has to be content with that.

 

[Edward Teach]

you all are full of such bullshit.

Look up the real facts. We suck at health care for everyone except the top 5%. The World Health Organization barely has us in the top 40. And real universal health care would dramatically CUT costs, not increase them.

Doesn't matter. People are too afraid of backlash. Yes, any reform is better than quitting and running like Clinton did.

But we are gonna end up with a half-measure that doesn't accomplish the things we are truly capable of accomplishing.

Health care may not be a "right", but I do feel it is something that the richest and most affluent nation in human history should be able to provide for ALL its citizens.

And you all scream about liberalism when in reality, even the man I supported and you despise is more of a centrist than anything even close to far left.

Go back and listen to that jerk on the radio that dropped out/flunked out of SE Missouri state and ignore the advice of the Harvard Summa Cum Laude grad.

*shakes head*

I'm beginning to think this country deserves exactly what it is getting...

They aren't screaming about liberalism any longer, Bel, they're screaming socialism. Pollster Frank Luntz said it was the thing to do, Hannity and Limbaugh naturally started chanting it in rythum and all the good little Cons just couldn't help but goose step in time to the rap. They all deserve another 8 years of Dubya -- the sad part is, half the numbnuts would vote for him two more times and bitch about Bill Clinton while standing in the soup lines.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Actually, the US government does set prices. Medicare has a comprehensive list of how much they will pay for about any procedure possible. I get statements from them sometimes when I have something done, and it gives a charged amount and an amount that Medicare pays and the provider has to be content with that.

The difference being that MediCare is a voluntary system for the patient, the doctor and the drug companies/vendors.

 

[amicus]

It isn't a matter of the US being able to afford socialized medicine, we can.

It is a matter that it doesn't work, ever, anyplace it has been tried. Care is rationed, waiting lines are untenable, procedures are determined by committee, and the society is taxed into bankruptcy to support the inevitable bureaucracy of the system.

But the most important reason is a small thing ignored by most, that of human dignity and individual rights. In America we cherish that very valuable aspect of human existence, individual freedom and the right to choose how we live our lives.

You folks on the other hand are eager to sacrifice the rights of medical professionals to determine their circumstances and happily turn their lives over to a committee of hired clerks and accountants.

As I said in this post or another, I wonder what mental deficiency lies at the root of those who desire to be enslaved, who will exchange their freedom for safety, comfort and security. Sheep are close, I guess, Porcine is more fitting.

Amicus

 

[Teloz]

Jenny_Jackson; I've kept quiet until most of you have had your say. Now it's my turn.

The Healthcare thing is a mess. This is why -

If the U.S. is to have universal health care it needs a pattern. So why not patten after Japan? The Japanese government sets prices for absolutely every ailment there is and that's what the doctors and drug companies get paid. (I wonder which lobbyists would have a field day with that one?)

Or they could pick England's NHS. But we've all heard the horror stories there. So the American public wouldn't stand for that kind of a mess.

Don't believe all the horror stories about the NHS, they're told by people who have a vested interest in slagging the system off. Okay, there are problems, but no organisation is perfect. If they were, American doctors wouldn't have to pay such high premiums for malpractice insurance. I don't know about Japan

And who the fuck is going to pay for universal health care? The Japanese have the most wonderful system in the world. The cost, however, is covered with high taxes. Pretty much the same situation in England.

The cost of healthcare per head of the population is far lower in the UK than it is in the USA, yes, we do pay high taxes, but that isn't solely down to healthcare.

Remember that the Budget Gods in Washington DC has said universal health care would cost $1,000,000,000,000 over ten years. Gulp!

You believe a politician?

So maybe the real problem with universal health care is (a) the rotten economy so no one really wants to pay for it and (b) the huge number of people in the U.S. Does either Japan or England have 300,000,000 people in their systems? Hell no. Nor do the Swedes or the French or anyone else.

Does the number of people make a difference? I don't see why it should. If it's costing less per head there are going to be lots of people paying less.

The fucked up system we have grew up along with the American Society. It's a given in the U.S. that there are "haves" and "have nots," right? Why is Health Care any different?

I call it The Amicus Strategy; Fuck you Jack, I'm all right!

Force all Americans to buy Health Insurance with fines? That's some insane idea that started with Hillary back during the Clinton years. Would that work? Teloz has it right. If you can't afford health insurance can your really afford to pay a $3800 fine?

I rest my case on that one!

So from both a social, as well as, an economic standpoint, universal health care makes no sense based on any reasonable pattern we have to look at.

Sorry, but that's where I think you're wrong. You have the opportunity to pick all the best bits from all the other systems and produce a universal healthcare system to be proud of. I won't hold my breath!

 

[rgraham666]

Bel? I was reading a book a couple of night's ago. It lead me to this article. I was especially struck by this passage.

The indivisibility of any aspect of life from any other in Islam is a source of strength, but also of fragility and weakness, for individuals as well as for polities. Where all conduct, all custom, has a religious sanction and justification, any change is a threat to the whole system of belief. Certainty that their way of life is the right one thus coexists with fear that the whole edifice—intellectual and political—will come tumbling down if it is tampered with in any way. Intransigence is a defense against doubt and makes living on terms of true equality with others who do not share the creed impossible.

Personally, I believe you could replace 'Islam' with 'a fair portion of the American Right' and you would have the reason for not supporting public health care. The people opposed to it are afraid that the whole system will collapse if that change comes about.

 

[lance gt]

And the American people scream at each other about the pros and cons of universal health care, while they enjoy their expensive visits to doctors. The poor suffer because they are second class citizens who are treated as poorly as the slaves were. I am Canadian, proudly so. Obama has openly envied our system of Health care and only wishes he could convince Congress it was what the people of the nation needs. We receive a health card at BIRTH, that we carry for the rest of our lives. It's the only thing we need to show to any type of health care provider and the services are rendered. No extra charges or fees are given to us. By the time we are 65, ALL our medication is free, nothing to take away from the social insurance we are given, along with our company pensions. No person is allowed to be sick in this country, it's the LAW of the land. Only those who aren't citizens must pay for health services. We pay a small percentage for this priviledge in our taxes and enjoy a healthy, happy life because of it. Democratic, Republican or Socialist aside, what can be more important than your health. Isn't that what people say all the time when things are really, shitty for us..... at least you have your health, that's the most important thing

 

[Teloz]

.... at least you have your health, that's the most important thing.

Nah! Second most important thing, the first is actually waking up in the morning. Every new day is special!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

The answer you seek is right here on LIT.

Americans dont want to be enslaved, they want sanctuary from competition, and awards for every pathetic, impotent effort. They want a free lunch at your expense.

 

[Boxlicker101]

The difference being that MediCare is a voluntary system for the patient, the doctor and the drug companies/vendors.

It's not voluntary for the patients/subscribers but it is voluntary for the providers.