How Important Is College?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

How important is college to personal success and national prosperity?

Years ago I was told that college serves no other purpose than to be a barrier to the promotion of talented and effective clerks. It keeps them out of a higher social class. This was likely true until about 1960.

Today, it seems to me, college replaced the army as the place for goofy adolescents to ripen at the Mad-Hatter's Tea Party.

 

[jomar]

Many roads to success and all, but depending on what you want to do, college is pretty damn important. However, while all those college boys on Wall street are wealthy with "paper money," they certainly aren't building Wendy's and creating jobs.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JOMAR

Reflecting on my own education, I concluded that everything beyond mathematics, english composition, and quantitative science techniques was wasted time and money and effort. I say teach people math, english, scientific computation then let their profession process them via an apprenticeship.

 

[jomar]

JOMAR

Reflecting on my own education, I concluded that everything beyond mathematics, english composition, and quantitative science techniques was wasted time and money and effort. I say teach people math, english, scientific computation then let their profession process them via an apprenticeship.

Interesting thought.

I don't consider mine beyond a certain point wasted, because it was a well rounded education, but I understand - if one is curious enough they can self-educate history, art, etc...

In fact, some wall street firms essentially did what you are suggesting some years back. They would hire liberal arts majors, who were good at cocktail parties given their education, and teach them their way to make money.

So how would you see the apprenticeship model working in your profession, clinical psychology?

 

[DesertPirate]

College is very important.
A Bachelors degree today is worth what a High School Diploma was in the 50's in the job market.
Says a lot for our education system doesn't it.
More is said by all the remedial classes at college to make up for what should have happened in HS.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JOMAR

The profession has atrophied to the point where all it really does is offer computer tests to clients and let the software do all the heavy thinking. The computer creates a report the psychologist submits to the court. End of story.

The rest of it is behavior management that most clients blow-off and ignore.

If I owned a gun I'd use it on my neighbor's dog, so I dont own a gun. My approach is rational and works. If people took their meds and left the booze alone they'd be okay. Most minds arent fertile enough for the seeds of reason to germinate in.

So, to answer your question: You could train a high school graduate to operate the computer tests and give the client a list of all the do's & dont's.

 

[Liar]

A college degree increases the chance to get a good job.

A college education increases the chance to do a good job.

Is it decisive? Nah.

 

[Elianna]

College is very important.
A Bachelors degree today is worth what a High School Diploma was in the 50's in the job market.
Says a lot for our education system doesn't it.
More is said by all the remedial classes at college to make up for what should have happened in HS.

Hate to tell you that if you look at HS standards back in the 50's and today, you will find them higher in most schools today. Don't forget that we "tracked" kids... put the lower-achieving kids in different classes and taught them at a lower level. In the 50's as you refer, only the best and brightest went to college. The others were prepped to work in factories or in "blue collar" jobs (save a few very clever few). Now, more kids are going to university, and therefore, YES, I think Universities are dumbing down a little.

I know several VERY intelligent people who make A WHOLE LOT of money. They would be your 50's genius, folk. Now that they're working on missiles and top secret stuff, they tell me that the degree gave them the basic skills to do a job. Everything else has been learned since employment. Likewise for me. If I didn't have my master's, I wouldn't be able to have my job. Most of what I do, has been learned on the job, though.

What it boils down to: no degree, no job. Period. It's a minimum requirement for many fields.

 

[jomar]

JOMAR

The profession has atrophied to the point where all it really does is offer computer tests to clients and let the software do all the heavy thinking. The computer creates a report the psychologist submits to the court. End of story.

The rest of it is behavior management that most clients blow-off and ignore.

If I owned a gun I'd use it on my neighbor's dog, so I dont own a gun. My approach is rational and works. If people took their meds and left the booze alone they'd be okay. Most minds arent fertile enough for the seeds of reason to germinate in.

So, to answer your question: You could train a high school graduate to operate the computer tests and give the client a list of all the do's & dont's.

Ha! Sounds simple if that were the whole of it. No wonder psychologists are fighting psychiatrists over medication privileges.

A psychologist friend of mine does have a technician to administer the neuropsychological battery. But he interprets and synthesizes it all and then writes the report - maybe he's old school.

 

[WRJames]

JOMAR

Reflecting on my own education, I concluded that everything beyond mathematics, english composition, and quantitative science techniques was wasted time and money and effort. I say teach people math, english, scientific computation then let their profession process them via an apprenticeship.

I have been doing quite a bit of screening and editing lately. Even with the aid of word processors, the stuff comes in deplorable condition. We are doing piss poor job teaching the basics of the English language.

As for mathematics -- some of the public debates we are having over public policy illustrate how people have no grasp of numbers. Yes, a billion dollars is a lot, but not compared to a trillion. I'm not saying everyone needs to know calculus, but they should at least be able to understand simple algebra.

I don't know if the high schools are better or worse, but I do know that by the time I got out of eighth grade I had mastered those two things. Without that foundation, you really can't do the rest.

How many so called professionals today can write a grammatical essay or pass a simple algebra test?

 

[secretme]

I voted yes but I happen to also think that it replaced competence and merit as well. You need the damn degree to make money. Well... the degree or a friend or a relative or dumb luck. Since I have none of the last three options I opted for the first one. But most of the people getting my degree are passing on books and have no real brain to speak of. Those are the ones who are only attending college to meet a husband and get married to someone who has the potential to make money. Again, luck not on my side, I haven't found one of those either. So again it's down to me and a piece of paper. We'll see how it works out in the end. Don't you just love it when you are your only option?

 

[sr71plt]

As usual, my choice is "none of the options." A proper college education (note, I didn't say "degree"--and neither did the question--although one of the options did) is necessary for a whole range of professions needed by society but not for a whole range of other professions also needed by society.

 

[TE999]

A great many college degrees today are, for all practical purposes, useless...except as an indicator you can digest and regurgitate chunks of obscure information at will.

I'd rather my kids learned a trade than waste four years of their life (and my money) drinking beer and hooking up. Have you hired a plumber, electrician, carpenter, tile setter or painter lately? Did you take a step back when you got the bill and did your hand shake when you wrote the check?

College grads use them too.

 

[sr71plt]

A great many college degrees today are, for all practical purposes, useless...except as an indicator you can digest and regurgitate chunks of obscure information at will.

I'd rather my kids learned a trade than waste four years of their life (and my money) drinking beer and hooking up. Have you hired a plumber, electrician, carpenter, tile setter or painter lately? Did you take a step back when you got the bill and did your hand shake when you wrote the check?

College grads use them too.

Again, the question posed doesn't specify degree. There's a difference between a college education and a college degree. The poll is faulty.

 

[DG Hear]

Unfortunately, you need that piece of paper to get the jobs and position today. Trade schools seem to better help one apply themselves. I went to college when I was young and dropped out. (had a family to take care of) Went back in my late 40's/early 50's and finished. Just to say I did it.

There is a lot more learned in on the job training but the government doesn't see it that way. They are having laid off people going to college to take courses in order to draw that unemployment check. I have a number of neighbors doing that. No real interest in going but want the check.

I think it's good that they are learning but for what jobs? I truly believe we need manufacturing jobs here back home if we are to succeed.

I remember an old slogan in an old sales job I once had.
"Nothing happens till someone sells something"

Problem today is we need to make it so it can be sold.

Just my opinion.
DG

 

[DesertPirate]

Hate to tell you that if you look at HS standards back in the 50's and today, you will find them higher in most schools today. Don't forget that we "tracked" kids... put the lower-achieving kids in different classes and taught them at a lower level. In the 50's as you refer, only the best and brightest went to college. The others were prepped to work in factories or in "blue collar" jobs (save a few very clever few). Now, more kids are going to university, and therefore, YES, I think Universities are dumbing down a little.

I know several VERY intelligent people who make A WHOLE LOT of money. They would be your 50's genius, folk. Now that they're working on missiles and top secret stuff, they tell me that the degree gave them the basic skills to do a job. Everything else has been learned since employment. Likewise for me. If I didn't have my master's, I wouldn't be able to have my job. Most of what I do, has been learned on the job, though.

What it boils down to: no degree, no job. Period. It's a minimum requirement for many fields.

Look at the quality of education.
A 50's HS Grad. had a good understanding of the basics. Today they go to college for remedial classes.
Then they take college classes.

 

[TE999]

Again, the question posed doesn't specify degree. There's a difference between a college education and a college degree. The poll is faulty.

Roger that. I was referring to such pseudo-degrees as Women's Studies, Byzantine Architecture, Fine Arts, Urban Affairs, Social Science and other twaddle.

Degrees in Engineering, Chemistry, Mathematics, Biology and the like are, on the other hand, quite useful.

 

[DeeZire]

I noticed an interesting tie in with the AH thread on the Discovery show "The Colony" (?) where the leaders of the group are now the two blue collar guys, while the educated professionals are being left out of the loop.

Another recent AH thread addressed a book about "working with your hands" which questioned the affect of mindless clerical work on the soul of the worker. The guy dropped out of his white collar job to open up his own motorcycle repair shop. What he liked about it was the fact that he had to think - to actually use his brain - to be successful, unlike his white collar job, where all he had to do was show up on time and follow a set of guidelines (while wearing slacks and a white shirt.)

I think everyone should have the opportunity to go to college, or a trade school. The problem with that is, who would do all the low-wage labor that is the basis of our economy? (Actually, thats not a problem, since it's being handled by all those college graduates who can't find a decent job.)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

In my life I experienced most of the education schemes: high school technical program, military technical school, apprenticeship with night school, correspondence courses, junior college & university...plus the professional accreditation training.

The professional accreditation seminars were the worst, taught by minorities with axes to grind and a captive audience. When a minority cant hack it as a professional, the state adds them to the professional training staff with a pay raise.

The apprenticeship with night school was the best. The instructor knew his shit well, and we had to demonstrate all that we learned over 4 years. Graduation was held at a sheet metal shop where each candidate got a work bench, a written description of the ventilation pipe they were to make from scratch, and a full sheet of galvanized steel. Mine started square, transitioned to round, made a 90 degree turn transitioning to oval, and transitioned to square with a round coolie cap. I later worked at a ship yard making ventilation pipe and funnels, etc.

 

[vrosej10]

Roger that. I was referring to such pseudo-degrees as Women's Studies, Byzantine Architecture, Fine Arts, Urban Affairs, Social Science and other twaddle.

Degrees in Engineering, Chemistry, Mathematics, Biology and the like are, on the other hand, quite useful.

You underestimate Arts degrees. In Australia, an Arts degree has become almost mandatory for people entering law. This is because it encourages critical thinking skills, a widely useful skill.

I think a college degree makes a huge difference. Up until five years ago, I was a high school dropout (Year 9 in Aussie, I don't know what that would be in the US). I went back to school and finished high school and then went to university. The value of a college education is in the education itself. Your mind is basically the only thing that you completely own, why wouldn't you renovate?

Jobwise, five years ago I had no prospects,in spite of being very well self educated and possessing a higher than average IQ, now I have some. Like it or hate it, if you don't want to do manual labour, then you need an education. You can't even get work as a ditch digger around here without qualifications around here...

 

[xssve]

Personal success, yes, national prosperity, no.

The people that crashed the economy were a bunch of MBA's - and they are already collecting bonus checks again.

 

[CharleyH]

How important is college to personal success and national prosperity?

Years ago I was told that college serves no other purpose than to be a barrier to the promotion of talented and effective clerks. It keeps them out of a higher social class. This was likely true until about 1960.

Today, it seems to me, college replaced the army as the place for goofy adolescents to ripen at the Mad-Hatter's Tea Party.

Any education is important and I think a University education is especially important to learn shit.

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

It certainly made a huge difference for me. It provided me with the discipline and the desire to know more and more. By introducing me to great writers, my college professors inspired me to learn from them and find my own voice as a writer.

 

[vrosej10]

Roger that. I was referring to such pseudo-degrees as Women's Studies, Byzantine Architecture, Fine Arts, Urban Affairs, Social Science and other twaddle.

Degrees in Engineering, Chemistry, Mathematics, Biology and the like are, on the other hand, quite useful.

You underestimate Art degrees. In Aussie they are now almost mandatory for law students as they teach critical thinking, a very useful skill.

Five years ago I had a Year 9 level education. I went back to school, finished high school and am now at university (the dreaded Arts degree). Before I started this I had absolutely no prospects, despite possessing a fairly high iq and an advanced level of self education. I didn't have even the minimum level of education needed to get into a trades course. I didn't even qualify to work at McDonalds! Now I have opportunities. Last year I was offered a position in the Prime Minister's office (which I couldn't takr for family reasons unfortunately). The thing is, without uni, this would never have happened. To sum up, these days you need the piece of paper to get ahead. Period.

 

[Liar]

Roger that. I was referring to such pseudo-degrees as Women's Studies, Byzantine Architecture, Fine Arts, Urban Affairs, Social Science and other twaddle.

Degrees in Engineering, Chemistry, Mathematics, Biology and the like are, on the other hand, quite useful.

So in other words: Stuff you don't understand = twaddle. Stuff you do understand = useful.

In my line of work, a chemistry degree is about as useful as a stubbed toe.