Brother's Keeper?

[sweetnpetite]

"I am responsible for myself and for all men, because by choosing myself I chose man as I want him to be." --Jean-Paul Sartyre



Do you agree or dissagree with this? Discuss.



Further info:

Ortega y Gasset wrote that life is at the same time fate and freedom, and that freedom “is being free inside of a given fate. Fate gives us an inexorable repertory of determinate possibilities, that is, it gives us different destinies. We accept fate and within it we choose one destiny.” In this tied down fate we must therefore be active, decide and create a “project of life”—thus not be like those who live a conventional life of customs and given structures who prefer an unconcerned and imperturbable life because they are afraid of the duty of choosing a project. 1.


"There is in man... the inescapable impression that his life, and with it his being, is something which has to be chosen. The fact is amazing; because it means that, unlike all other entities in the universe, which have a being that is given to them ready-made by virture of which they exist (because of which they already are what they are, man is the almost inconcivable reality which exists without having a being... being prefixed, who consequently, is not yet what he is but must chose for himself his own being.) How will he chose it? Because he will imagine in his mind many type of possible lives... he will, doubtless, notice that some of them attract him more..." 2.

"We are responsible to all for all." This sentence of Dostoyevshy's, which Simone de Beauvior has chosen as the motto for her novel Le Sang des Autres (The Blood of Others) is the essence of the great Russian's ethics... Sartre shares his conviction and tries to give it a philosophical foundation by saying: I am responsible for myself and for all men, because by choosing myself I chose man as I want him to be. 3.



footnotes: 1. from Wikipedia article Jose Ortega y Gasset 2. J. Ortega y Gasset, "La Mision del Bibliotecario" (1935) in Obras completas, Madrid, 1951, tomo V, p. 211 3. Sartre: his philosophy and existential psychoanalysis by Alfred Stern, 2nd edition revised and enlarged edition (1967) New York, Delecorte Press, p. 70-71

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I get by with a little help from my friends--John Lennon


So, if you are a friend, you should be helping someone else, no? A much less complicated take on ethics. And of course there is always the Golden Rule.

Sartre was all hat and no cattle.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Sartre was all hat and no cattle.

There's a lot about Sartre that I don't agree with, but I do like this particular quote. I do agree that what we put into the world is what we make of the world, and we should make the world more of what we want it to be and less of what we don't want it to be. I also see the point that we are making our idealized version of mankind by what we make ourselves into. (if indeed we are self-made, another kettle of fish) On that basis, I agree with the quote. (mostly)

In The Secret Life of Bees, there is a character who is so sensitive, she carries the pain of every sad thing that happens in the world. In the end it is too much for her and she takes her own life. I can identify with her, because I am very empathetic. Sometimes I think, what business do I have beeing happy in a world so full of misery? But then I remind myself- what business do I have putting more misery in the world if I can help it?

So I do think that we have a responsibility toward mankind (and to ourselves) to be the kind of person that we want to have in the world. (eh... be the change?) Or at least strive to be that kind of person.

 

[amicus]

"Brother's Keeper"; "Hey, Brother, can you spare a dime", and the existentialist era, during the cafe' socialist era of the thirties, was the attempt by the artists and intellectuals to deal with the onslaught of Communism, which fulfilled their Utopian dreams, but dealt harshly with their individualism and deviant customs.

You make a profound beginning by acknowledging that 'man' is the only sentient creature in the Universe as we know it, but you let it slip away when you postulated metaphysical terms like destiny and fate, instead of following reason and logic and arriving at, focus and 'choice', as the defining factor in directing an individual life.

One is responsible for one's own life and others he may rationally 'choose' to provide for. Even, "Ask not for whom the Bell Tolls; it Tolls for thee...", has several levels of understanding aside from that we are all human.

Amicus

 

[Stella_Omega]

“If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am not for others, what am I? And if not now, when?”
~ Rabbi Hillel

That's my guiding phrase.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Exactly!

 

[TE999]

Life's Little Lessons

Do unto others before they do unto you.

Always sit with your back to the wall.

When cornered, smile.

Never give a sucker an even break.

All man's needs are: younger women, faster horses, older whiskey and more money.

Once your opponents down, he stays down.

If someone says it's not the money it's the principle of the thing...it's the money.

Money talks, bullshit walks.

These have worked well for me, so far anyway.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

There are two assumptions in the brother's keeper proposition: I KNOW BEST and I CAN ENFORCE MY WILL ON OTHERS.

 

[Verdad]

Let us not misunderstand Sartre. Far from aspiring to be his brother's keeper, he was obsessed with freedom and abhorred conformism. Radical freedom is his key theme.

Since "existence precedes essence" in his philosophy, the essence is defined by choices—free choices of everyone for themselves. The meaning of the quote is, thus, by every personal choice we define both ourselves and the humanity. If it suggests anything, it suggests personal responsibility, by no means lording it over another.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Kinda like the greeting at Auschwitz: WORK MAKES YOU FREE.

Wasnt Sartre a communist wimp?

 

[Verdad]

I thought you liked him. The quote you often use belongs to him, after all: "Hell is other people."

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I thought you liked him. The quote you often use belongs to him, after all: "Hell is other people."

I do like him. And when I go the carnival I dont assume that whats inside the tent is whats painted on the canvas outside the tent. As Mencken said, WHEN JIM JOHNSON SMELLS FLOWERS, HE ASSUMES THERE'S A FUNERAL CLOSEBY.

 

[OzoneRed]

Define "Responsible for".

 

[Verdad]

I do like him. And when I go the carnival I dont assume that whats inside the tent is whats painted on the canvas outside the tent. As Mencken said, WHEN JIM JOHNSON SMELLS FLOWERS, HE ASSUMES THERE'S A FUNERAL CLOSEBY.

Not sure what you mean. In context, that is. If you're saying 'freedom' is one of the most misused and abused labels in history, with that I thoroughly agree. Not sure what you mean in regards to Sartre specifically, though?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

VERDAD

I am accused of translucense!

I mean that most of the perfessers paint their canvas with marvelous depictions of bearded ladies and two-headed babies and geeks in Pampers, but the show inside their tent is pretty lame. The goal is to get our money rather than enlighten us. And Sartre had some P.T.Barnum in him.

 

[penandpaper]

I think the poll needs to define responsible. After all, I am certainly more responsible for taking care of my parents when they get older than I am grandparents or nephews or neices. But, I am certainly more responsible toward my nephews and neices than I am my students. But, I am certainly more responsible for my students than I am a begger on the street. But, I am certainly more responsible toward the begger I'm walking by than the begger 1,000 miles away. So on and so forth.

In the end apply the Golden Rule, remember Neil Peart's saying about freewill and choices, and try to love one another.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Responsible means you own the problem and deal with it. You dont look the other way. You dont slip it inside another kids lunch box. You take care of it.

Pretty simple.

 

[R. Richard]

Do unto others before they do unto you.

Always sit with your back to the wall.

When cornered, smile.

Never give a sucker an even break.

All man's needs are: younger women, faster horses, older whiskey and more money.

Once your opponents down, he stays down.

If someone says it's not the money it's the principle of the thing...it's the money.

Money talks, bullshit walks.

These have worked well for me, so far anyway.

Never play cards with a man named Doc.
Never eat at a place called Mom's.
Never buy anything that needs painting or feeding.
Never sleep with a woman whose troubles are worse than your own.
When dealing with a sweet, innocent young thing, remember that there's no such thing as a sweet, innocent young thing.

 

[penandpaper]

Responsible means you own the problem and deal with it. You dont look the other way. You dont slip it inside another kids lunch box. You take care of it.

Pretty simple.

My point exactly. If a person owns the problem and deals with it, then, provided they have a good work ethic, they work at it till it's resolved. If that's the case, everyone who voted in the poll can only say "themselves." No one can take care of another person's problems completely. The simple fact that there are hungry people and homeless people and kids with crappy homelives is proof of that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

that's so sad; both TE99's and rrichard's quoted mottos are about not helping other people. About how futile it is to pitch in, or care or trust.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

PENANDPAPER

Oh! I can take care of their problem. I do it all the time. But they dont often like how I do it or the outcome.

If I'm hungry, and if I own the problem, I can appeal for a BLT or spaghetti or whatever. If someone else assumes ownership I may end up with liver and spinach.

 

[DesertPirate]

I believe in helping others. It is my choice when and how much because the family comes first!
I do not believe in the enforced helping of others being attempted by Washington with the socialist health bill that can't be paid for.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I believe in helping others. It is my choice when and how much because the family comes first!
I do not believe in the enforced helping of others being attempted by Washington with the socialist health bill that can't be paid for.

Of course you don't believe in socialism!

Do you have any particular saying, that says what you do believe in?

 

[Verdad]

VERDAD

I am accused of translucense!

I mean that most of the perfessers paint their canvas with marvelous depictions of bearded ladies and two-headed babies and geeks in Pampers, but the show inside their tent is pretty lame. The goal is to get our money rather than enlighten us. And Sartre had some P.T.Barnum in him.

You look rather enigmatic to me! But P. T. Barnum?! Sartre wouldn't even take his Nobel Prize money. He did have his contradictions, though. The opening quote is not easy to interpret within the main thrust of his philosophy. It sounds suspiciously like Kant's categorical imperative, which it, of course, can't be, and has a slight smell of ad hockery. I like it, though. Not a bad phrase to live by.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

VERDAD

Maybe he has no idea what he, himself means.

Its one thing for a chicken kicker like me to wrestle with what I mean, and its another for a designated perfesser-wizard like Sartre to talk shit that has no meaning. What he had to say should be the clearest of all. Thats the whole idea of genius.