The Real Canadian Health Care

[Zeb_Carter]

I've never had any problems with our healthcare system, Zeb. And I really resent an attempt by amateurs to find the worst they could possibly find with our system and hold t up as an example of the whole thing.

That's a coincidence...I feel the same way about people who complain about the USA's health care.

I kind of agree with Tom on this one.

The problem being at least in the States their is recourse. It may not be what you would like but it's there. If you deal with Government there is no recourse.

 

[rgraham666]

Shrugs. I didn't expect to convince you. You regard government as inherently evil and I regard it as simply a tool. I don't think either of us will change our minds.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I'd rather government because good or bad, they can't refuse. I will pay out and pay out, but I WILL get what I need when I need it. And if I don't think I will, I might be able to get an insurance company that will cover me well because they don't want me to pick government instead. And THAT is the difference that I see. The only difference, as, currently, Health Insurance can force me to see their doctors who are just as bad as I'm seeing in these examples.

And when has government ever done anything that was a success? You think if the government is your insurance provider you will be taken care of? How naive of you.

And how many of you current doctors will stay enrolled in the government plan? There will be a private healthcare system out there but you'll have to pay cash to participate, because all the doctors will be fleeing the government controlled system.

And the universal health care is not about your well being, it is about power.

 

[rgraham666]

Blink, blink.

And your private healthcare system is about your well being and isn't about power?

Tell me, Zeb. Are the people in the two systems somehow fundamentally different? Are the people in the private system somehow less selfish? More concerned with the future of the society they exist in? Better people? Because in all my encounters with both I've seen no difference. They're all just people.

The only time I've been victimized by a government was when a neo-conservative party was in power here in Ontario. That had more with the political philosophy of the party (Fuck the poor and sick, the weaklings) than the inherent evil of the government.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Obama isn't talking about the government taking over health care.

He's talking about the government offering health care insurance.

Why can't you people see the difference?

Have you read all 1500 pages of the bill in question? Have you even read parts of it?

What Obama is trying to do is become the insurance industry. Sure you can have private insurance as long as the policy is in force prior to passage of the healthcare bill. After that, there is no such thing as private insurance. If you don't have it, you can't get it. So where's your choice?

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]
And the universal health care is not about your well being, it is about power.

Seriously? Because millions of sick people declaring bankruptcy over medical bills would disagree with you. Poor and sick, or dead, is a hell of a power base to operate from.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Shrugs. I didn't expect to convince you. You regard government as inherently evil and I regard it as simply a tool. I don't think either of us will change our minds.

I don't think it's evil, I just think that those in charge are evil as most have proven over and over again.

Government is needed for those things that the lone citizen can't provide. Once government gets too big for the people to control, then that is when those at the top start becoming evil.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Seriously? Because millions of sick people declaring bankruptcy over medical bills would disagree with you. Poor and sick, or dead, is a hell of a power base to operate from.

Geez, you must be the product of a government school system because I have never in my life heard anything as stupid, just plain stupid as that. I wasn't talking about you or anyone who may or may not need health care, I was talking about the...now listen very carefully...g o v e r n m e n t.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Blink, blink.

And your private healthcare system is about your well being and isn't about power?

Tell me, Zeb. Are the people in the two systems somehow fundamentally different? Are the people in the private system somehow less selfish? More concerned with the future of the society they exist in? Better people? Because in all my encounters with both I've seen no difference. They're all just people.

The only time I've been victimized by a government was when a neo-conservative party was in power here in Ontario. That had more with the political philosophy of the party (Fuck the poor and sick, the weaklings) than the inherent evil of the government.

The only difference will be their monetary standing. Those who can afford it will see doctors on their own dime even though they have to enroll in the government mandated plan.

 

[Liar]

And when has government ever done anything that was a success?

Your fly is open and your prejudice is hanging out.

In this very thread, I gave three examples from over here, of government operations that run like clockwork, provide first class service and return a profit.

I'm not saying that the US government will run health insurance sucessfully. Or regulate the health care system in an effective way. I don't know. And you don't know. You're free to guess, of course.

But: Government can indeed run things smoothly and effectively. Or botch it grandly. Private companies can fuck things up. Or have great success.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Man, 22, Dies After Liver Transplant Refused

A 22-year-old alcoholic has died after being refused a life-saving liver transplant because he was too ill to leave hospital and prove he could stay sober.

Gary Reinbach, who died in hospital on Monday from a severe case of liver cirrhosis, did not qualify for a donor liver under strict NHS rules.

The alcoholic, from Dagenham, Essex, had admitted binge drinking since he was 13 but was only taken to hospital for the first time with liver problems 10 weeks ago.

He was never discharged.

His mother Madeline Hanshaw, 44, said: "These rules are really unfair."

She told the Evening Standard: "I'm not saying you should give a transplant to someone who is in and out of hospital all the time and keeps damaging themselves, but just for people like Gary, who made a mistake and never got a second chance."

She said he was "desperate to recover" but had deteriorated quickly.

They won't give an alcoholic a liver transplant here either unless he dries out and can prove it. It's a waste of a good liver. It's standard policy.

Same is true for kidneys. They won't give a diabetic a kidney unless and until he controls his blood sugar. They just won't.

Look, you people seem constitutionally unable to grasp the fact that the government will not be running the health care system. The government will be paying the bills, just like Blue Cross or United Health Care or whatever health insurance you have (if you're lucky enough to have it) does now.

Is American health care rationed now? You're damned straight. Try getting a liver transplant or a bone graft or anything else if you don't have health insurance. They'll laugh you out of the office; shit out of luck. And that's not conjecture, that's fact, a fact that millions of people learn every year.

The only thing hospitals provide now is emergency service for conditions that could have been stopped and treated far earlier (and cheaper) had these poor suckers had insurance. But because they didn't, they're stuck with being rushed to the ER when they're dying, when treatment costs are at their peak.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ELLIOTT

I beg to differ. Bureaucrats and pols will control and micro-manage the medical industry when Obamacare becomes law. HIPPA, Medicaid and Medicare Laws, etc. already control much of the medical industry.

Twenty years ago my clients spent 45 minutes filling out government required forms every time they came in. This left about 5 minutes for me to determine their problem and treat it. This was before HIPPA. When I transferred to the state, it was worse. Every client generated a minimum of 39 pages of forms.

Obamacare will make it worse becuz the bureaucrats will demand to track every dime and intervention so they can monitor everything and generate reports.

So your opinion seems ill-informed to me.

When FDR wanted an atomic bomb he did not hand the work over to Congress. He gave it to the best minds in nuclear physics. Today, a comic from Minnesota is on the job.

I mean, Obama sez he doesnt know whats in the bill, CNN sez many Democrats dont know whats in the bill, and the CBO sez it leaves lotsa stuff out and wont pay for what it includes.