The Real Canadian Health Care

[Zeb_Carter]

Canadian Health Care!

No thank you!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I've spent most of my life under 'socialized medicine' either in school, the Army or the VA. I've never had any complaints. Of course, when I get treatment under my employer-provided healthcare, I've been happy, too.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I've spent most of my life under 'socialized medicine' either in school, the Army or the VA. I've never had any complaints. Of course, when I get treatment under my employer-provided healthcare, I've been happy, too.

I noticed a big difference in quality and speed between socialized medicine and what I have had the last forty odd years.

What I received in the Air Force was minimal care by PA's, saw a doctor maybe once. The care for dependents was even less.

Since being in the private sector and private healthcare the quality has been 1000% better and the speed at which I could see a doctor, not a PA, but a real, honest to goodness doctor, is also 1000% better.

I remember waiting with my wife to see a doctor in AF, appointment had been made but, still had to wait four hours past her appointment time.

Currently, if we wait ten minutes after we get there that's a long wait.

So the bullhockey about socialized medicine being fantastic is just that, bullhockey.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Really? I find that the wait time at my private physician is considerably longer than at the VA. I guess it just depends . . .

 

[Huckleman2000]

Are you afraid of universal healthcare, or simply an anti-tax zealot? If the former, you add nothing constructive to the discussion. If the latter, quit wrapping your avarice in concern for sick people. That's what has come to be called a "concern troll".

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Are you afraid of universal healthcare, or simply an anti-tax zealot? If the former, you add nothing constructive to the discussion. If the latter, quit wrapping your avarice in concern for sick people. That's what has come to be called a "concern troll".

To answer you question...both. If you want universal healthcare immigrate to Canada or the UK. Don't force it down my throat.

As for how fair it would be...try this.

 

[3113]

Actually, here's the real Canadian AND British Health Care systems.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Actually, here's the real Canadian AND British Health Care systems.

Funny...if it wasn't true.

 

[TE999]

Funny...if it wasn't true.

Short version is: TANSTAAFL*.

One way or the other you are going to pay... with money or your time or your physical condition.

What's the difference if you're denied coverage by an insurance company or have to wait forever for an operation or a transplant?

Everyone gets an asprin in either health care system...or a wound stitched up. But cancer treatment? An MRI? Dialysis? Chemotherapy? Physical therapy?

All these horror stories of government run medical care can't possibly be exaggerations by crazed Right-Wingers who hate Obama and want people to die in the streets.

This rush to judgement for Universal Health Care by Congress (whose members won't be affected at all) is grinding to a halt as more and more people wise up to what a hellacious boondoggle it will be. Now BHO's deadline for passage has been extended.

Putting the government in charge of anything that involves people's well-being is sure to be a money-wasting disaster. War On Poverty ring a bell?





*There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

 

[rgraham666]

Notes while watching this alleged investigative report.

Canadian health card. Um, no. You carry a provincial health card. The cost is split between the federal and provincial governments but the insurance system is run by the province. Quebec in this case. I wish they had included that fact.

Clinic is closed on Sundays. Um, so? Where is it? In a major city like Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver? Or is it in a small town where there isn't enough business on Sundays to justify keeping it open? From the looks of the houses etc. I saw I believe it is the latter.

Oh dear! They're in triage. And they said it's not urgent. And yet they had to wait. Quelle horreure! Seriously, how different is this from the States?

So, 'numbness in the wrist' and they're disappointed they had to wait four hours? A guy with a broken clavicle waited for five. And, so they claimed, a guy waiting for penicillin waited for nine. Well, a clavicle is hardy life threatening. And the person waiting for penicillin should have gone to a pharmacy rather than the emergency room.

Again, as near as I can tell this is a small town and small towns aren't likely to have the equivalent of the Mayo Clinic in them.

Hmmm. Things are really different in Quebec than they are in Ontario. I go to my local clinic and get an appointment to get my blood tested. They make an appointment, I go in on the day and get my blood taken. I know this because I had to do that recently.

I'm not going to watch the rest. I get the feeling the producers picked the worst place they could find and used that to 'prove' that 'socialized healthcare' is uniformly awful.

I'll tell you my own recent experiences.

I recently went for a vasectomy. To start I went to my local clinic, walked in the front door and made an appointment with one of the doctors there. No waiting.

I returned to the clinic a little before the appointed time. I had to wait about five minutes after that time for the doctor to see me. I told her what I wanted to do, she asked why and we discussed the procedure. Took fifteen minutes. She told the front desk to make an appointment with a urologist. They phoned the next day and the appointment was the following week.

I got to the urologists office, had to show my health card and fill out some forms. I had to wait about half an hour and then I saw the urologist. We discussed the procedure and I made an appointment for the vasectomy. It was in three weeks time. It could have been two weeks but I was going out of town that weekend and didn't want to travel after surgery.

I went to the hospital on the appointed day. I had to wait about twenty minutes as I got there about that time before the appointment. I showed my card again and filled out another form. I waited about ten minutes before the nurse came for me. I got stripped down, put on my gown and walked into the operating room. Another ten minute wait. Then the nurse came and prepped me. Another ten minutes and the doctor arrived and snipped me. That took about twenty minutes. I washed, got dressed and headed for home. I was back less than three hours after I left.

The whole thing was done quickly and efficiently.

Recently my dad had a bowel blockage that could have been fatal. He was operated on less than ten hours after my mom phoned for the ambulance.

I've never had any problems with our healthcare system, Zeb. And I really resent an attempt by amateurs to find the worst they could possibly find with our system and hold t up as an example of the whole thing.

 

[Xelebes]

Can honestly never say that I have had any of the experiences as was depicted in the video.

But then again I'm only one person.

 

[TE999]

I've never had any problems with our healthcare system, Zeb. And I really resent an attempt by amateurs to find the worst they could possibly find with our system and hold it up as an example of the whole thing.

That's a coincidence...I feel the same way about people who complain about the USA's health care.

 

[3113]

All these horror stories of government run medical care can't possibly be exaggerations by crazed Right-Wingers who hate Obama and want people to die in the streets.

As all those horror stories of Insurance companies can't be exaggerations by crazed Left-Winger who are Obama fanatics. This isn't a left or right wing matter. It's an Insurance Company or non-Insurance company matter. The big difference being--you can pay an Insurance company money for year and years and years...and they can REFUSE to cover you. Taking all your money and leaving you with shit. With ill health and hospital bills that take the rest of your money.

Hey, with no competition, what have they to worry about. You HAVE top pick them because you've no other choice. But if there's government, they will lower their prices and do better to keep you. And this is bad...because?

I'd rather government because good or bad, they can't refuse. I will pay out and pay out, but I WILL get what I need when I need it. And if I don't think I will, I might be able to get an insurance company that will cover me well because they don't want me to pick government instead. And THAT is the difference that I see. The only difference, as, currently, Health Insurance can force me to see their doctors who are just as bad as I'm seeing in these examples.

I really don't get the Right-wingers. You want people to earn a living, but you also want them to give their money to health insurance, which then screws them, leaves them with no money and no health, and puts them on disability that YOU then have to pay for. Here's a plan that might keep them healthy enough to earn that living and pay their taxes so that they can stay healthy and earn a living!

Gosh. How terrible would that be?

 

[Xelebes]

My recent bout with the Health Care System (as to go along with rgraham's tale):

Went to medi-clinic doctor complaining about my neck jerking, sudden loss of movement and constant negative thinking/blurting with a growing sense of panic. 1 hour wait. Directed to Outpatient Psychiatry Clinic (OPC) at nearby hospital.

Went to OPC the next week when I had time off. 1.5 hour wait to see a therapist there. Given a brief of what services they offered and directed me towards intake.

Came next week to do intake. No wait for me to do all the questionaires and the sort. Took all afternoon. Saw a therapist and a psychiatrist. No prescriptions offered. Still assessing what the neck jerking is all about.

Few more meetings arranged over the next month. Panic grows to such a point that I no longer can attend school. At that point I was arranged to meet up with a clinical psychologist and a neurologist for one and a half months after that while I began taking Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT). Just finishing up the CBT right now.

Get a diagnosis after some testing a month after that. Result: Tourette's. Still awaiting some other results but eh, whatever.

All very prompt. No surgeries though. Just therapies.

Again, only one person here.

 

[Huckleman2000]

To answer you question...both. If you want universal healthcare immigrate to Canada or the UK. Don't force it down my throat.

As for how fair it would be...try this.

No one is forcing anything down anyone's throat, or up anyone's ass, or anywhere else that riles your homophobia.

And I didn't say anything about "fairness". I don't expect that my need for care from sickness and disease is somehow "fair". "There, but for the grace of god...", and all that - the finger of fate is fickle. I do, however, expect that it be adequate, and that a health disaster should not become an economic disaster to compound someone's unfortunate health difficulties. The best way to do that is to share the risk across broad populations. I suppose if you don't think you've received the value of healthcare that you've paid for over the years, you might feel as though you've been cheated somehow instead of just uncommonly fortunate. If that's your attitude, then your attitude is your problem. And it's still no guarantee that your luck will not sour in the future, and you could become a tragic healthcare case who requires a great deal of care.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I went to my GP complaining that I couldn't dive because of my sinuses. He referred me to the best EENT in the city. She asked if I snored. "Like a steam-driven chain saw." I got sent to a sleep clinic to spend the night. Verdict? Sleep Apnea. No, I don't want the stupid IPACC machine. Fix it. Admitted to hospital, opened up sinuses, straightened out septum, removed tonsils and adenoids, trimmed back soft palate and removed uvula. Total cost to me? One $10 copay at the GP's and a few more $10 copays at the EENT. Everything else covered, approved, paid for and done without a hitch. Thank you very much, Blue Cross.

 

[sadangel]

Okay, my own two cents.

There are problems in the US health care system and that's a fact I've seen for myself. I've had to wait 3-4 hours, just to get to an exam room and then another hour or two in the exam room. Lately, the Free clinic I go to, is getting better. The waiting room wait is an hour and the exam room an hour. That's better than it used to be.

There are uninsured people that cannot or will not go to the ER, because they know that even if it's something serious, the one's that use the ER for their "Family Doctor" are going to be seen first. My former partner had to go to the ER, for a hernia. She ended up leaving after waiting 3 hours and being told it would probably be at least 4 more hours. She was in pain and decided to just let nature run it's course. She finally healed. Mostly.

I am sure that Rob and Xelebes are not saying that the Canadian Health care system is perfect, it has it's flaws too, but why should we not as Americans at least consider that for many, Universal Health Care could be life-saving for some, for many perhaps. I am fortunate, that with my SSI, I also have Medicaid. I am fortunate, that though I could go on Disability and Medicare, the Govt decided to keep me on SSI/Medicaid as I could not have afforded the premium payments for Medicare. That doesn't always happen.

As Xelebes said, this is only one person's experience and thoughts.

 

[TE999]

As all those horror stories of Insurance companies can't be exaggerations by crazed Left-Winger who are Obama fanatics. This isn't a left or right wing matter. It's an Insurance Company or non-Insurance company matter. The big difference being--you can pay an Insurance company money for year and years and years...and they can REFUSE to cover you. Taking all your money and leaving you with shit. With ill health and hospital bills that take the rest of your money.

Hey, with no competition, what have they to worry about. You HAVE top pick them because you've no other choice. But if there's government, they will lower their prices and do better to keep you. And this is bad...because?

I'd rather government because good or bad, they can't refuse. I will pay out and pay out, but I WILL get what I need when I need it. And if I don't think I will, I might be able to get an insurance company that will cover me well because they don't want me to pick government instead. And THAT is the difference that I see. The only difference, as, currently, Health Insurance can force me to see their doctors who are just as bad as I'm seeing in these examples.

I really don't get the Right-wingers. You want people to earn a living, but you also want them to give their money to health insurance, which then screws them, leaves them with no money and no health, and puts them on disability that YOU then have to pay for. Here's a plan that might keep them healthy enough to earn that living and pay their taxes so that they can stay healthy and earn a living!

Gosh. How terrible would that be?

Not terrible at all...if it works as you think it will.

In most cases it's human nature to get something as cheaply as possible. If the government begins providing health care, it doesn't have to show a profit. And to make it accessible to as many persons as possible it will be cheaper than most private plans. People will flock to the government plan to save money, the private plans won't be able to compete and will go bankrupt. Presto...the government controls health care. Then America has a system much like the VA hospitals and clinics to serve everyone.

Remove the profit motive and there is no incentive to develop new drugs, new treatments or new diagnostic apparatus...unless your congressman or senator is up for re-election and he or she will promise those things...and never deliver.

Be careful what you wish for...you just might get it.

 

[Liar]

That's a coincidence...I feel the same way about people who complain about the USA's health care.

Let's make a deal then. You don't give us the "socaliced medicine is satan because anything the government touch turns to shit" tripe, and we won't gave you the "private corporations are only in it to squeeze money out of people and don't give a damn about their well being" tripe.

Ok?



ps. About government running things: The three most profitable service enterprises in Sweden, if we talk return ratio, are the national Post service, government owned cargo ports, and one just recently privatized telecom entity. Then comes IKEA. Don't take a dime of tax money to run, and return a hefty profit for the state. Because they are more streamlined, less buerocratic and less bound by sort term result demands than the private competition. Also, they have well working unionization (yes, it's possible, it CAN work well), which means a low employee turnover and good working conditions, something that turned out to be good for the bottom line in the long run.

Just sayin' .

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Twenty years ago HMOs were gonna get medical costs under control, and it never happened. My city/county funded an indigent medicalcare program with a special tax, the prgram went away but the tax remains and the indigent have no program. Before all of this we had a county hospital that accepted all county residents, and before that we had the poor farm. Nothing works and medical costs absorb more of the economy as times passes. We whoop and shout and high-five and things get worse.

I worked for government many years and feel confident that Obamacare will piss away as much money and respond as quickly to political pressure as every government program does. I've seen politicians come to the hospital wagging their fingers, scowling, and making threats when their family/friends dont qualify for government funded programs...and the hospital caved to the pressure. So I expect this will continue.

There are several Satans in all of this, and all of them are fighting over who gets to rob me.

 

[oggbashan]

Either, or...

In the UK, universal health care is provided by the National Health Service.

It isn't perfect but is at its best for emergency and critical cancer care. It is less good for long-standing minor conditions.

But we in the UK have a free choice. We can use the NHS and we can have health insurance (at a much lower cost than in the US) to pay for private health. We can also buy private health services without insurance. Because the private health services compete against each other AND against the NHS, their costs tend to be much lower than in the US. Another factor is the reluctance of UK people to sue for negligence.

I have a mix of health care provision:

I use the NHS for long term care for two of my health conditions.

1. I visit an NHS consultant twice a year. I never have to wait more than 10 minutes on those visits. I also use a private sports physiotherapist for that condition, visiting him every six weeks. I pay for those visits myself.

2. I visit my local doctor's surgery about four times a year to see the practice nurse after I've had blood tests at my local NHS hospital. When the blood is taken I wait about ten minutes because I know (and the staff told me) when their quietest time is. At peak time I might have to wait half an hour. When I visit the doctor's surgery I never wait more than ten minutes and some of that is usually because I arrive five minutes early.

I have private health insurance for my dental treatment. I have to pay for dental technician's work which is not covered by the insurance. The technician's work has cost me about 90 pounds this year.

I have private health insurance through a mutual (member-owned) society which has its own private hospital. That insurance covers cold surgery which is typically the surgery that has waiting lists in the NHS. If I need that sort of surgery, it would be at no cost to me. My colleagues have had mastectomies, hip and knee replacements and medical treatments for long standing conditions. While in that hospital the staff tend to look for other problems that can be dealt with at the same time such as dental treatment, podiatry, skin complaints etc. - all at no cost beyond the membership fee.

Publicly funded health care does not mean that all other health care should cease. It should mean that no one is refused basic health care but you can insure for, or buy, additional health care if that's what you want and can afford.

Og

PS My previous employer had its own health service which could examine and diagnose health conditions in the staff. Although they were employed by the company and would advise the management about the health prospects of the employee, the would also advise if medical/surgical intervention could improve an employee's health and attendance/usefulness. For example, one skilled employee was injured in a traffic accident. The employer's doctors advised that treatment at a residential health clinic would reduce the recovery time by months. The employer, with the employee's consent, paid for that treatment. It was in the employer's and the employee's interest that he be back at work fully-functional in a shorter time.

Edited for PPS: The UK spends about half the US cost per head on health care for universal cover. That cost includes ALL the private medical insurance and treatment as well as the NHS. Other European countries spend more or less per head that we do and in some cases for better care. As I see it the US problem is not the overall COST of health care, but HOW it is spent and who profits from it. Some of the US's health care is undoubtedly the best in the world but what happens to the US's uninsured or uninsurable is indefensible.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OGG

The stats dont support the assertions that suits and CEO compensation are significant drains on healthcare funds.

In America we pay for medical treatments a la carte. MDs and nurses waste gobs of time specifying every little billable unit they performed so the billing clerk can milk the patients insurance. This accounts for the long delays in our emergency rooms; staff are in the lounge writing detailed notes for the billing clerk. The system has reduced everyone to a clerk and scribbler, to get the money.

Hospitals and MDs buy all kinds of Flash Gordon toys they can bill for. You may not use them in your treatment, but your MD adds them to the treatment order and you pay for them. Ditto for your sleeping pills and pain killers. You may not use them but you pay for them because the MD puts them on the treatment order. Unused meds is where nurses get their illicit supplies. Its the a la carte business, again.

MDs and hospitals can bill for lab work, so you get lotsa tests.

If we switched to a Scope of Work system, the hospitals would bid for the whole process and eliminate the unnecessary and unused procedures, to save time and money.

 

[oggbashan]

James,

I don't know what is wrong with the internal workings of the US healthcare system but I do know that it isn't the answer for people to attack the wide variety of other countries' health services that provide universal care for half the US cost.

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OGG

I just finished reading a NY TIMES editorial about US healthcare costs, and they parrot what I posted. Hospitals go for for every dollar they can squeeze out of the patient.

But what isnt reported is how the government forces hospitals to treat anyone who applies for care. If illegals or the homeless or the working poor walk in the door, they must be treated. If your HMO refuses to authorize treatment, the hospital must treat you for free, especially with mental illness emergencies. And legions of mentally ill use hospital admissions as respite from where they reside.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Obama isn't talking about the government taking over health care.

He's talking about the government offering health care insurance.

Why can't you people see the difference?