Hitting

[rosco rathbone]

Someone linked me to this blog called "The Pervocracy".

I saw this post and thought the board might like to discuss it.

"...Hitting in relationships bothers me. Oh wow, what a courageous and novel stand, I know. But I'm not just talking about blatant abuse. There's two kinds of hitting I see a lot that don't really reach the level of domestic violence but still bug the shit out of me.


1) Girl hitting. "Tee hee, I'm just a little girl and he's a big strong boy, when I get angry it's just a cute angry and when I flail my fists at him it's just cute little blows!" I know an unfortunately large number of girls who think it's just fine when they get frustrated in an argument--generally not a serious emotional argument, but a disagreement--to sort of ineffectually whack at the guy and think it's funny. Like a goofy cartoon "snap out of it, sillypants!" head-bonk. Only real.

First, you're discounting your own power. The idea that girl-hitting is okay hinges on the idea that girls are harmless. Maybe you're not as strong as him, but even if you're tiny (tiny girls do seem to have particularly poor hit-inhibition), you could do some damage if you tried. You could leave a mark. Respect that. Your fists, even small untrained fists, are weapons, and you don't goof around with weapons.

And second, you are, in anger, touching someone in a way they don't want to be touched. The fact that it doesn't do real damage doesn't make it all okay and adorable. Violence isn't just about injury, it's also about violation, and cute little "ooh you rascal" swats, when unwanted, are a cute little violation. It's not okay for him to hit you as long as it doesn't really hurt--so it's not okay to hit him. Ever.


2) Dom hitting. I've experienced this one. He's so used to hitting you during sex and giving playful swats or full-on "punishments" for "infractions," that you're out of role and you genuinely displease him and he spanks you. (Or you're just walking around and he sneak-attacks, which is not morally offensive but is very annoying.) The problem here is pretty self-evident, I think: a sub's consent isn't carte blanche, and sexy-hitting should have absolutely nothing to do with real hitting.

Like the girl hitting, dom hitting in my experience is usually meant to be silly and not physically dangerous. He's not deliberately being cruel, he's just failing to realize that the difference between a little spank for being such a dirty slut and a little spank for sass mouth is huge. It may hurt the same or less, but it's crossing the consent line. And it's scary. A lot scarier, I think, than he realizes. I've ditched guys over this; if I can't trust a guy when we're out of role just messing around, how can I trust him to tie me up?


The bottom line is basically don't hit people even a little bit unless they have very specifically and explicitly asked for it. It's a pretty easy rule to remember I think.

http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2009/04/cfnm.html

 

[MisterSir]

The problem here is pretty self-evident, I think: a sub's consent isn't carte blanche

He/she is absolutely right about the first point, but on that, they're doing that thing where they take the rule of their relationship and extrapolate that to the world at large; thanks to the malleability of "sub" and "consent", that's probably going to be a sticking point. Let's see.

The bottom line is basically don't hit people even a little bit unless they have very specifically and explicitly asked for it. It's a pretty easy rule to remember I think.

For me, get rid of the bolded bit and you've got a rule.

 

[ecstaticsub]

It seems to me when the poster was talking about Dom hitting they are referring to a roleplay situation.

When I am with my PYL he can hit me for whatever reason he wants--whether it is in a sexual situation or punishment or just because he feels like it.

 

[Netzach]

Someone linked me to this blog called "The Pervocracy".

I saw this post and thought the board might like to discuss it.





http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2009/04/cfnm.html

She's making one calculated error. These are *her* limits and she's extrapolating them onto everyone else.

Personally, I can totally get why these things are un-ok to her. She articulates it well.

I can't recall swatting a bf like that. Maybe like once ever?

If T spent time "making up infractions to spank me over" --- ugh. He wouldn't. That's why I'm with him. I also know he's not going to spank me for "sass mouth" - if anything he decides I'm talking too much and tells me to hush and I do, because I like that, and it's good for me and it works for me.

 

[myinnerslut]

this is assuming that you go in and out of roles.

and dom hitting is supposed to be silly? really?

the perspective screams of bedroom only, which i have no problem with, its just not really relatable.

 

[ownedsubgal]

this is assuming that you go in and out of roles.

and dom hitting is supposed to be silly? really?

the perspective screams of bedroom only, which i have no problem with, its just not really relatable.

exactly. nothing wrong with roleplaying D/s, but it's an entirely different animal than actually living or it or being it. the author's standards and beliefs are absolutely ridiculous for me or anyone in my world.

 

[nh23]

*shrugs* I've been known to get a slap across the face for sassing off. I obviously don't find it a problem. Some might.

I do however have a problem with someone who uses their fists all the time to hold onto power. If you have to hit all the time to maintain control I'd say there's a problem.

 

[ownedsubgal]

*shrugs* I've been known to get a slap across the face for sassing off. I obviously don't find it a problem. Some might.

I do however have a problem with someone who uses their fists all the time to hold onto power. If you have to hit all the time to maintain control I'd say there's a problem.

i agree with this. if someone NEEDS to hit in order to maintain control, then they truly don't have any and that's lame and pathetic. if hitting is just part of the package, one tool in the belt, then so what.

 

[nh23]

i agree with this. if someone NEEDS to hit in order to maintain control, then they truly don't have any and that's lame and pathetic. if hitting is just part of the package, one tool in the belt, then so what.

Yep.

 

[shy slave]

I agree with nh and osg, but I do find this kind of blog frustrating.

i agree about the girl hitting, that sets my teeth on edge when I am around vanilla women and they talk about having done that. I once, many years ago, dated a much older man who was in a violent relationship and that had begum years before as 'girl hitting.' She was my boss and I had no trouble believing she hurt him, plus I would see the marks. Not good and not anything to do with BDSM.

Putting girl hitting and BDSM in the same arena is like putting McD's (sorry Wenchie) in the same arena as El Bulli.

The role play aspect is the most frustrating, I come across this alot when talking to PYL's and pyl's, it seems that many see role play as D/s, interchangeable words whereas I see them differently. I struggle with role play because whilst I like to laugh and have fun I don't want to role play.

Being single I get offers from men who want to spank me or role play in some way, shape or form; justifying it by thinking that at least I am getting something. As if its an itch to be scratched.

It is an itch but I want it scratched in a relationship that encompasses D/s not a hokey cokey style of BDSM, which the blog seems to suggest is the way BDSM and/or D/s should be.

Of course, now I have said that it will sound like I think my way is the only way as well, which of course it isn't

Sometimes I think a fully functioning BDSM dictionary would be useful, one that crosses language barriers between the UK and US would be perfect!

 

[intothewoods]

exactly. nothing wrong with roleplaying D/s, but it's an entirely different animal than actually living or it or being it. the author's standards and beliefs are absolutely ridiculous for me or anyone in my world.

Fwiw, bedroom only isn't necessarily roleplaying (in this case with the whole naughty little slut reference, maybe it always is for that blogger). Because the power exchange is limited to the bedroom doesn't mean that one is playing a role there. My PYL and I were bedroom only for some time and we've never done the roleplaying thing. It was always an entirely natural and authentic connection and exchange. It just was limited to one area and now it includes more.

Anyway, I have no idea why she refers to s&m as "dom hitting," but it seems that it's perfectly reasonable that if she and her partner have agreed that hitting is for sex only, that he shouldn't turn around and hit her because he's pissed off. Apparently she's unaware or not interested in talking about 24-7 power exchange relationships that include discipline.

 

[Netzach]

Fwiw, bedroom only isn't necessarily roleplaying (in this case with the whole naughty little slut reference, maybe it always is). Because the power exchange is limited to the bedroom doesn't mean that one is playing a role there. My PYL and I were bedroom only for some time and we've never done the roleplaying thing. It was always an entirely natural and authentic connection and exchange. It just was limited to one area and now it includes more.

Anyway, I have no idea why she refers to s&m as "dom hitting," but it seems that it's perfectly reasonable that if she and her partner have agreed that hitting is for sex only, that he shouldn't turn around and hit her because he's pissed off. Apparently she's unaware or not interested in talking about 24-7 power exchange relationships that include discipline.

Thats a good point. Compartmentalized things are still real. That guy fucking his mistress and going home to his wife is still fucking, it's not pretend fucking.

 

[ZRT]

I do however have a problem with someone who uses their fists all the time to hold onto power. If you have to hit all the time to maintain control I'd say there's a problem.

Yup.

I hit because I enjoy it. I don't beat women to control them- if they're not under my control, they wouldn't be hanging around waiting for me to hit them.

 

[graceanne]

I agree about girl hitting, but I also think if a guy has a problem with it he needs to say so. If a girl is hitting her SO, and he's not saying anything, then I'm going to assume he doesn't care and that it's none of my business.

My sister and her husband are constantly rough housing and stuff. She'll smack him, he'll pinch her, they'll both laugh. *shrugs*

As for dom hitting, K's been known to swat my ass. I might say 'HEY! THAT HURT!' if he's just goofing, because he's known to accidentally hit too hard, but I don't actually care. I've told him over and over (because it pisses me off when he pushes my guilt button when I haven't done anything) that he doesn't have to have a reason to spank/smack me. He can just cause he wants to.

 

[CutieMouse]

She's making one calculated error. These are *her* limits and she's extrapolating them onto everyone else.

Personally, I can totally get why these things are un-ok to her. She articulates it well.

I can't recall swatting a bf like that. Maybe like once ever?

If T spent time "making up infractions to spank me over" --- ugh. He wouldn't. That's why I'm with him. I also know he's not going to spank me for "sass mouth" - if anything he decides I'm talking too much and tells me to hush and I do, because I like that, and it's good for me and it works for me.

I was going to be all eloquent and stuff, but then I read this and went "Yup, pretty much."

 

[rosco rathbone]

I was going to be all eloquent and stuff, but then I read this and went "Yup, pretty much."

I was going to chastize Netz for her "thread over" reason and logic.

Let's hear your take.

 

[YourCaptor]

More or less what the others said

Cute girl hits, most of the time they don’t even register, draw any of my attention, its not like there is any force behind it, its just, not noticed. Sometimes however it will tick me off when already in a bad mood, and then I tend to retaliate with total overkill, so small violent creatures beware, I’ll squash you.

As for number 2, when do you ever get to leave your role? Unless you move and nobody knows you, how can you switch. “a little spank for sass mouth” does not really gain much attention allocation either. Its fairly natural.

Bottom line, the magic land of subs and honey is idealized, things aren’t perfect, get over it.

 

[CutieMouse]

I was going to chastize Netz for her "thread over" reason and logic.

Let's hear your take.

Okies...

"...Hitting in relationships bothers me. Oh wow, what a courageous and novel stand, I know. But I'm not just talking about blatant abuse. There's two kinds of hitting I see a lot that don't really reach the level of domestic violence but still bug the shit out of me.


1) Girl hitting. "Tee hee, I'm just a little girl and he's a big strong boy, when I get angry it's just a cute angry and when I flail my fists at him it's just cute little blows!" I know an unfortunately large number of girls who think it's just fine when they get frustrated in an argument--generally not a serious emotional argument, but a disagreement--to sort of ineffectually whack at the guy and think it's funny. Like a goofy cartoon "snap out of it, sillypants!" head-bonk. Only real.

Girly girl: "Oh gosh he's just such a meanie!" *ineffective flailing swats*

[Parental hat on] Ew. Teeth on edge ew. If we are going to teach future generations to be civilized, girls do not get a pass on the hitting thing. All my children take Kung Fu - they know if they're going to hit, it's for a reason and it better damn well be serious [and final]. If they grow up to be kinky, great fine happyhappy, sort out the hitting part however your own dynamic works.

First, you're discounting your own power. The idea that girl-hitting is okay hinges on the idea that girls are harmless. Maybe you're not as strong as him, but even if you're tiny (tiny girls do seem to have particularly poor hit-inhibition), you could do some damage if you tried. You could leave a mark. Respect that. Your fists, even small untrained fists, are weapons, and you don't goof around with weapons.

Yes it discounts a woman's power - my 75# 9 year old can take her (225#) dad out in Kung Fu class. Hitting isn't play. Hitting can be hot, hitting can be cathartic, hitting can be sensual, but (in my world) it ain't "play."

And second, you are, in anger, touching someone in a way they don't want to be touched. The fact that it doesn't do real damage doesn't make it all okay and adorable. Violence isn't just about injury, it's also about violation, and cute little "ooh you rascal" swats, when unwanted, are a cute little violation. It's not okay for him to hit you as long as it doesn't really hurt--so it's not okay to hit him. Ever.

I'm trying to see this so logically, but then in the back of my mind I hear this voice going "but sometimes angry can be really really good... how screwed up am I?"

2) Dom hitting. I've experienced this one. He's so used to hitting you during sex and giving playful swats or full-on "punishments" for "infractions," that you're out of role and you genuinely displease him and he spanks you. (Or you're just walking around and he sneak-attacks, which is not morally offensive but is very annoying.) The problem here is pretty self-evident, I think: a sub's consent isn't carte blanche, and sexy-hitting should have absolutely nothing to do with real hitting.

Like the girl hitting, dom hitting in my experience is usually meant to be silly and not physically dangerous. He's not deliberately being cruel, he's just failing to realize that the difference between a little spank for being such a dirty slut and a little spank for sass mouth is huge. It may hurt the same or less, but it's crossing the consent line. And it's scary. A lot scarier, I think, than he realizes. I've ditched guys over this; if I can't trust a guy when we're out of role just messing around, how can I trust him to tie me up?

This is one of those really really really careful who I attach myself to things. Because she considers it to be crossing a line of consent, but I don't. And I'm like Netz - if you don't want me to talk, just tell me to hush and watch me bite my lip. I had a Lover once who loved swatting my ass just once, whenever his friends were around - just to watch me blush. I hated it and was hot as hell all at the same time, but wasn't ever scared. I can't imagine ditching a [presumably otherwise good relationship] because my Lover swatted my ass as I loaded the dishwasher.

The bottom line is basically don't hit people even a little bit unless they have very specifically and explicitly asked for it. It's a pretty easy rule to remember I think.

Yes hitting is serious business and all, but some (IMO) some people take it too seriously. (Spoken as a woman who takes everything too seriously. )

 

[bridgeburner]

I was just thinking about the girly hitting thing and nodding my head along with everyone and then I remembered being a girly hitter.

Don't freak on me, I was 12 so I actually WAS a little girl.

I had a crush on this one boy I saw every day at the public pool and his friend would tease me---not super-mean or anything but basically teasing me because of my crush. So I'd be flirting with the one boy and all worked up and the other boy would tease me and I would slap his belly or love-handles.

The friend finally put his foot down and told me I was hurting him and it wasn't fun. I, chastened and mortified, immediately stopped.

I was a violent little thing because I was really too young to be making out which my 16yo crush wisely understood.

Oddly enough I have clearer, more vivid memories of my interactions with the friend I hit rather than the boy I crushed on.

 

[graceanne]

Don't freak on me, I was 12 so I actually WAS a little girl.

I recall 12 year old crushes, and I recall they were violent on the boys parts, too. Pulling hair, chasing, pushing, etc. Anything to get the other person's attention.

If your crush had been another 12 year old boy, I bet you'd have been hitting eachother playfully.

 

[Etoile]

1) Girl hitting. "Tee hee, I'm just a little girl and he's a big strong boy, when I get angry it's just a cute angry and when I flail my fists at him it's just cute little blows!" I know an unfortunately large number of girls who think it's just fine when they get frustrated in an argument--generally not a serious emotional argument, but a disagreement--to sort of ineffectually whack at the guy and think it's funny. Like a goofy cartoon "snap out of it, sillypants!" head-bonk. Only real.

First, you're discounting your own power. The idea that girl-hitting is okay hinges on the idea that girls are harmless. Maybe you're not as strong as him, but even if you're tiny (tiny girls do seem to have particularly poor hit-inhibition), you could do some damage if you tried. You could leave a mark. Respect that. Your fists, even small untrained fists, are weapons, and you don't goof around with weapons.

And second, you are, in anger, touching someone in a way they don't want to be touched. The fact that it doesn't do real damage doesn't make it all okay and adorable. Violence isn't just about injury, it's also about violation, and cute little "ooh you rascal" swats, when unwanted, are a cute little violation. It's not okay for him to hit you as long as it doesn't really hurt--so it's not okay to hit him. Ever.

Wow. I am so, so guilty of this. At least I used to be in my previous D/s relationship. I would get mad and hit a lot and it was never effective, never purposeful, never got me the results I wanted. (Which, tbh, was for the fight to be forced out of me...I was fighting to get a reaction.) This was pretty eye-opening.

No problem with the other types of hitting, though degrees worry me. As an example, sometimes the way osg describes what her Daddy does bothers me (the word "kidney" comes to mind) but it's their business. I worry that she might be physically injured but I've met her Daddy and I can see that he's not dumb enough to fuck up his favorite playtoys, so I don't need to trouble myself about it.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

First of all, people who write as though their opinions are incontrovertible facts piss me off from the get go. The author has a right to her opinions but that's all they are. When writing about 'dom hitting' she is doing so from a position of supreme ignorance and that annoys me just as much as what she actually pontificates about the subject.

As MIS and osg said, her comments are not relevant to someone in a 24/7 dynamic. In that case, consent is carte blanche and therein lies the fundamental difference. Also, the idea that it's all fun and silly games belittles lifestylers and the hard work, heart and soul they put into keeping their dynamics healthy and mutually beneficial. In receiving pain or 'punishment' I am always serving, whether that means getting his rocks off or having my behaviour modified. I would suggest that non 24/7 couples still have to establish their boundaries and if that makes an ass slap or verbal reprimand out of scene ok then more power to them. The idea that a dom would do something like that due to a lack of restraint or self awareness or an inability to remember when he's in the privacy of his bedroom is just ridiculous and insulting to SSC PYLs.

As for playful slapping, it just comes down to what you have normalised and found acceptable. When Master walks past me in the kitchen or whatever and swats my ass, I feel exactly the same way as a vanilla woman might feel on receiving a spontaneous hug or kiss. It's not abusive or degrading, it's just the way we function as a happy, healthy M/s couple.

There is the inference here that BDSM is abusive and that consent to being 'hit' or reprimanded is always dubious and I don't like that either. Choosing to consent to submit to a PYL 24/7 or to permit public/semi-public reprimand or playful slapping does not mean a person must be stupid, gullible, compliant through fear, at risk or in an unhealthy dynamic. It does not automatically mean the dom has overstepped some invisible line or that his actions are abusive. It does not mean that he can't be trusted to scene safely, it just means he finds your ass hot and wants to slap it... um... because he's a dom, right?

 

[HardcoreDandDGi]

I have been with men who like hitting before. I never felt they crossed any line...infact my fav dom of all time once had to punish me for being late, and i didn't know what to expect. He punched me right in my left tit...at atleast close to full force, knocking me down and almost makeing me puke...then he draged me into the bath room, and threw me in the shower, clothing and all, and turned on the cold water full bore...If he wanted me baack today he could hit me all he wanted...

 

[Etoile]

I have been with men who like hitting before. I never felt they crossed any line...infact my fav dom of all time once had to punish me for being late, and i didn't know what to expect. He punched me right in my left tit...at atleast close to full force, knocking me down and almost makeing me puke...then he draged me into the bath room, and threw me in the shower, clothing and all, and turned on the cold water full bore...If he wanted me baack today he could hit me all he wanted...

Wow, perhaps I am a "let the punishment fit the crime" sort after all, but that seems excessive for a first time offense. I'd definitely have started with a face slap and then moved on for further latenesses.

 

[MisterSir]

He/she is absolutely right about the first point, but on that, they're doing that thing where they take the rule of their relationship and extrapolate that to the world at large; thanks to the malleability of "sub" and "consent", that's probably going to be a sticking point. Let's see.

He shoots, he scores.