We The People

[rgraham666]

Must not post. Must not post!

 

[Liar]

I think you are right.
All extremists are 100% wrong at all times.
Left, right, it's not a flat line, it's a circle, when you go to far one way, you are the same as the ones you disagree with.
Moderate centerists are at the top and morons at the bottm where they belong.

And still even among the moderate centrists, slightly left or slightly right (where we all are, to be perfectly honest), so much wharrgarbl, so much lip-syncing to propaganda, so much knee jerk shadow stabbing.

I'm beginning to believe the top vs bottom of politics is not where on the centrist vs extremist scale one is, but whether one actually, you know, thinks shit through.

 

[DesertPirate]

And still even among the moderate centrists, slightly left or slightly right (where we all are, to be perfectly honest), so much wharrgarbl, so much lip-syncing to propaganda, so much knee jerk shadow stabbing.

I'm beginning to believe the top vs bottom of politics is not where on the centrist vs extremist scale one is, but whether one actually, you know, thinks shit through.

You might be right.
Sadly we will never find out from the current media.
They give all pulicity to the 10% of the extremes of each side and have no time left to voice the concerns of the 80% that might have their head out of their asses.

 

[Guest]

You might be right.
Sadly we will never find out from the current media.
They give all pulicity to the 10% of the extremes of each side and have no time left to voice the concerns of the 80% that might have their head out of their asses.

Do you include FOX News in your list of current media?

Otherwise you are, once again, lip-syncing to propaganda.

 

[amicus]

]I'm getting so tired of the way certain people on these boards, when confronted, retreat into opinionated statements of doom and despair that have no component that can be discussed in a concrete manner.

Please provide evidence that there is a dictatorship or tyranny being planned. Please reference the definitions of dictatorship and tyrant while doing so. Please show examples of elected officials in this country who are legally entitled to hold their position "until death."

Please show evidence that the "far left" is a homogeneous group and that it is funded by a certain individual. In particular, expand upon claims that politically-motivated organizations with large memberships are the tools of a shadowy demagogue rather than the voice of a segment of the population.

Please be specific about which propaganda, please define socialism and compare and contrast it with the ideals in these publications and then please tell me how ANY political belief that is pursued through the current political system can actually be un-American when it is clear that public debate from all sides was considered to be an asset by the Founding Fathers.

Please define "myriad forms of welfare." Please discuss how certainty that medicare and medicaid will bankrupt the country fits with opposition to the establishment of a national healthcare system that would eliminate them. At the same time, please show why eliminating the significant cost to business that is currently imposed by supplying health insurance would be a negative upon the health of those companies... since I can't think of a single small to medium business owner I know who would not immediately point to health care and workers comp as their two biggest costs associated with employees other than actual wages.

Please provide examples of failed policies and programs that would indicate that this President is ineffectual rather than effective in a manner that disagrees with your personal goals.

Please provide examples of international failures and losses of territory and influence that would show that the global status of the United States has been weakened in the last six months.

And finally, please provide evidence that any and all of these individuals you scream against "hate America" rather than that they have certain beliefs that do not align flawlessly with your own.

I want stuff that can be proven or disproven. I want something besides the opinions. I want to see if you can actually quit screaming long enough to have rational discourse.

Forgive me if I don't believe that any of that will happen[/I].

~~~~~~~~

I'm getting so tired of the way certain people on these boards, when confronted, retreat into opinionated statements of doom and despair that have no component that can be discussed in a concrete manner.

No one I know, advocating from the right, retreats in any manner. Your problem is that you do not accept fact, truth or anything absolute, including mere definitions of words and concepts. There are but a handful here who challenge your left wing positions and each and every one offers a reasonable, rational, documented position; you just refuse to accept that anyone could possibly oppose your righteous dreams of a perfect, controlled, manipulated and managed society. This is America, not Europe, we are different and are determined to remain thus.

Please provide evidence that there is a dictatorship or tyranny being planned. Please reference the definitions of dictatorship and tyrant while doing so. Please show examples of elected officials in this country who are legally entitled to hold their position "until death."

You provide evidence before the revolution in Russia or the ascendence of Hitler in German. It was suspected by many, in both cases and ignored or denied by many more. As JBJ has pointed out and countless others have documented, you pay over half your income in taxes of one form or another. At what point do you, will you, acknowledge a dictatorship or a tyranny is in effect, at 60 percent, 70, 90, or total confiscation of your earnings? Do your own research and discover that 80 percent of all incumbent elected officials are re-elected every election. They are re elected because they 'buy' sufficient votes to win by assigning 'pork projects', to their districts and their constituents. Why do you think it is that 90 plus percent of the black vote went to Obama? Why do you think that over 70 percent of labor union votes went to the democrats, includng your revered teacher's unions? Supreme Court Justices are approved and appointed for 'life', does that qualify as, 'until death.? in your eyes?

Please show evidence that the "far left" is a homogeneous group and that it is funded by a certain individual. In particular, expand upon claims that politically-motivated organizations with large memberships are the tools of a shadowy demagogue rather than the voice of a segment of the population.

Evidence that the 'far left' is homogeneous is self evident right here on this forum. List the issues upon which all of the far left agree: Abortion, Gay Rights, Affirmative Action, Environmental Activism, Socialized Medicine, anti fossil fuel utilization, mandated and publicly funded day-care for working moms. You want evidence of who funds these groups? Follow the Acorn investigation. Follow the lineage of the Sierra Club and a hundred other environmental activist groups and see for your self who and how they are funded. I personally did such a research project in the late 60's tying together over a thousand environmentalist groups as interconnected and funded by dozens of sources all coordinated to preserve the environment in pristine condition and limit both growth and population of the American public.

Please be specific about which propaganda, please define socialism and compare and contrast it with the ideals in these publications and then please tell me how ANY political belief that is pursued through the current political system can actually be un-American when it is clear that public debate from all sides was considered to be an asset by the Founding Fathers.

That is precisely what a handful have been doing on this forum for years. Point by point definitions of socialist, collectivist policies, the publications and media outlets that promulgate them. Public debate on legitimate issues was and is indeed considered an asset to a free society. But when that debate devolves into removing rights from some to bestow upon others, the debate deteriorates into mob rule; one of the faults in any Democracy.

Please define "myriad forms of welfare." Please discuss how certainty that medicare and medicaid will bankrupt the country fits with opposition to the establishment of a national healthcare system that would eliminate them. At the same time, please show why eliminating the significant cost to business that is currently imposed by supplying health insurance would be a negative upon the health of those companies... since I can't think of a single small to medium business owner I know who would not immediately point to health care and workers comp as their two biggest costs associated with employees other than actual wages.

Do you follow the news at all? Have you not heard the dates which Social Security, Medicare and Medicade will be in the red; that is to say an even larger tax deficit as not enough young workers are contributing (mandatory contributions), to fund the programs? Social Security has moved from an age 62 retirement to 65 and is about to go to 67, because the scheme is failing and it is widely known and discussed. Ample evidence is provided almost on a daily basis of the failure of socialized medicine in Canada, and England just to name two. Treatment is refused older citizens because they have little life left and nothing to offer. Waiting periods are preceded by waiting lists, some over a year long. Can you do simple math? There are insufficient Doctors and Nurses even now to meet the medical demands of the American population. If, overnight, with socialized medicine you cover every person, where do the medical personnel come from? The are ways and means to alleviate high costs and scarcity in the medical field, most of which are caused by government interference, but not in the way you long for, government control. The market place, if set free, will provide a medical clinic on every corner in every town and city if the demand is there and government gets the hell out of the way.

Please provide examples of failed policies and programs that would indicate that this President is ineffectual rather than effective in a manner that disagrees with your personal goals.

Please provide examples of international failures and losses of territory and influence that would show that the global status of the United States has been weakened in the last six months.

Again, are you ignorant of the news or do you just ignore it? Violence in Iraq is increasing again as this administration has shown weakness in dealing with the situation, not only in Iraq, but in Iran, where the new President has been basically snubbed and the Iranians vow to continue manufacture of nuclear weapons. North Korea launches missiles, against international condemnation and the new President says and does nothing. Iranian students demonstrate and the new President initially has a weak, pathetic response until goaded into a more firm statement. China is drilling for oil and natural gas in the Gulf of Mexico while the left continues to ban and forbid American exploration and utilization of resources even within our own boundaries. This makes the United States even more dependent on foreign sources and places the nation in jeopardy of another natural disaster or an embargo on oil imports from the middle east, mexico or south america. And you see none of this on the news?

And finally, please provide evidence that any and all of these individuals you scream against "hate America" rather than that they have certain beliefs that do not align flawlessly with your own.

I want stuff that can be proven or disproven. I want something besides the opinions. I want to see if you can actually quit screaming long enough to have rational discourse.

The hatred is for what America represents, not the word itself and you know that well. Although I am an atheist, a recent flurry of anti religious hatred was expressed against a newcomer. The 'Religious Right" "Fundamentalists", are spoken of as a threat to all the social legislation the left has pushed through over the past half century, abortion, affirmative action, gay rights; a dozen more key issues that you Belegon, hold as sacrosanct and beyond discussion because you just 'know' you are right and your opposition ignorant.

There is no rational discourse on murdering an innocent child; none.

There is no rational discourse to be had on imposing a quota system benefiting a chosen few at the expense of others, yet you laud it as a righteous act.

You will brook no debate when others question the rights of homosexuals to teach children in public schools, or student and teachers with the HIV virus to exist unknown to a school population.

We have, in some ways, reached a point illustrated in the film, "The Postman", with Kevin Costner. "You want a war? You want a war! You got one!

The reason the 'usual suspects' claim they are leaving the Author's Forum in droves is because finally there is enough opposition to the left wing liberal majority that has dominated this forum since it began.

The Rats are leaving the ship....but the ship sails on, with sails full and taut.

Amicus

 

[Belegon]

Ami, in your extremely detailed post you do absolutely nothing to address the issues I brought up.

There is nothing quantifiable. Nothing that can be tested and shown to be false or fact. Only opinion.

In other words, thank you for illustrating my final point.

 

[TE999]

In recognition of cloudy's post earlier...I have changed my A/V to reflect the level of discourse prevailing on this and other socio-political threads as of late.

I have noted the increased vehemence on the part of certain posters when their opinions and thoughts are challenged. I'm sure there's more than enough 'proof' circulating to butress both sides of any argument, but as the song lyric so aptly puts it..."Nobody's right if everybody's wrong."

I remain amused.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Ami, in your extremely detailed post you do absolutely nothing to address the issues I brought up.

There is nothing quantifiable. Nothing that can be tested and shown to be false or fact. Only opinion.

In other words, thank you for illustrating my final point.

And what facts do you bring to the table? What quantifiable information to you process that will sway a room? What data have you produced to illustrate what is being said is wrong?

Change you can believe in?

 

[DesertPirate]

In recognition of cloudy's post earlier...I have changed my A/V to reflect the level of discourse prevailing on this and other socio-political threads as of late.

I have noted the increased vehemence on the part of certain posters when their opinions and thoughts are challenged. I'm sure there's more than enough 'proof' circulating to butress both sides of any argument, but as the song lyric so aptly puts it..."Nobody's right if everybody's wrong."

I remain amused.

Outstanding Tom!

 

[DesertPirate]

And what facts do you bring to the table? What quantifiable information to you process that will sway a room? What data have you produced to illustrate what is being said is wrong?

Change you can believe in?

None of course!
Lefties stay on the attack and avoid having to defend the undefendable.

SEIU (a union) and ACORN are run out of the same house in Louisiana. Founded by the same people. ACORN is under investigation in 11 states for voter fraud last year, they turned in thousands of fraudulent registrations. They are being hired to work the Census next year, is someone planning on a major Gerrymandering of districts for the 2012 election? Obama has made sure (through surrogates Pelosi & Reid) that both are getting millions in tax money to further their aims.
Why is the Federal Govt. giving a union money?

 

[Xelebes]

And what facts do you bring to the table?

Best to show who's the stronger man and provide your evidence and then ask him to show his. That way we can get a real good debate going while making Belegon look like the jackass. Without providing your evidence, both of you look like jackasses.

 

[DesertPirate]

Do you include FOX News in your list of current media?

Otherwise you are, once again, lip-syncing to propaganda.

Amazing how everyone is so upset about Fox.
Like they have more influence than ABC, NBC (and it's subspecies MSNBC (good ole Bill Gates)), CBS, the New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, and Atlanta Journal Constitution.
Oh wait, based on TV ratings, they might!

 

[cloudy]

.....

 

[Belegon]

And what facts do you bring to the table? What quantifiable information to you process that will sway a room? What data have you produced to illustrate what is being said is wrong?

Change you can believe in?

It's a valid point. However, you couldn't resist the final little dig, could you?

Don't you think, if you truly wanted to sound interested in rational discourse, you could have held back from attempting to use a soundbite against someone? That urge you apparently feel to ridicule opponents is exactly the problem I was referring to in my post.

What do you want to discuss specifically? Pick something. I don't have infinite time on my hands in which to garner unbiased info on everything that has been talked about in this thread... pick any single subject.

Remember when we did term papers in high school? The easiest subject to research is a specific one.

 

[amicus]

Ami, in your extremely detailed post you do absolutely nothing to address the issues I brought up.

There is nothing quantifiable. Nothing that can be tested and shown to be false or fact. Only opinion.

In other words, thank you for illustrating my final point.

~~~

Belegon, what is it about conceptual, abstract debates that you do not understand?

You stated earlier, as I recall, that providing links to back a position was useless as each side goes to a site that supports their point of view. If you reject factual information, just what kind of documentation would satisfy you?

The answer is none, because you are unwilling and unable to intellectually defend the collectivist point of view, that of sacrificing individual rights for the benefit of the whole.

In addition, for over five years, I have presented fact after fact, document after document, endless and repetitive rational arguments supporting American values, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the existence of an absolute moral system based on reason and rationality and all you and your cohorts do is reject and attack. As someone else said, that is all you do, attack American values and never ever even attempt to defend the socialism you advocate.

Why?

Because you know that I and others can defend individual rights and fundamental morals and ethics and you cannot.

So continue the facade and charade of crying foul when you are the one, among others, who will not and cannot defend your positions, whatever they are and you never even vaguely identify what it is you stand for.

I took considerable time to answer your post in a reasonable manner, addressing each point and you reject it out of hand. Fine. Anyone with an objective rational mind knows why you will not step into the ring and offer up a defense. You have none.

Amicus

 

[Boxlicker101]

never mind.

 

[TE999]

never mind.

Really!

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Fine, here ya go....

A Garden of Piggish Delights
Waxman-Markey is part power-grab, part enviro-fantasy. Here are 50 reasons to stop it.

By Stephen Spruiell & Kevin Williamson

The stimulus bill was the legislative equivalent of the famous cantina scene from Star Wars, an eye-popping collection of the freakish and exotic, gathered for dubious purposes. The Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill, known as ACES (the American Clean Energy and Security Act), is more like the third panel in Hieronymus Bosch’s Garden of Earthly Delights — a hellscape that disturbs the sleep of anybody who contemplates it carefully.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

and the suppressed EPA report on how the EPA doesn't know beans about global warming.

http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004.pdf

and the emails that suppressed it's release.

http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/Endangerment Comments 6-23-09.pdf

 

[Xelebes]

Usually a good start is done by pin-pointing exact phrases from the legislation that offend you so but this will do. Just be warned that posting such articles from the sources you got them, you're opening up the discussion to allow others to post Huffington Post articles as rebuttal. I don't know how well that will fly over with you.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Usually a good start is done by pin-pointing exact phrases from the legislation that offend you so but this will do. Just be warned that posting such articles from the sources you got them, you're opening up the discussion to allow others to post Huffington Post articles as rebuttal. I don't know how well that will fly over with you.

No problem...I have history on my side.

Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.
Michael Crichton, Caltech Michelin Lecture, January 17, 2003

Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.
Michael Crichton, Caltech Michelin Lecture, January 17, 2003

 

[amicus]

]Usually a good start is done by pin-pointing exact phrases from the legislation that offend you so but this will do. Just be warned that posting such articles from the sources you got them, you're opening up the discussion to allow others to post Huffington Post articles as rebuttal. I don't know how well that will fly over with you.[[/I]/QUOTE]

~~~

Open the link, Exelebes, and you will discover it is a government report, not a political site.

From reading just a few pages, it refutes most of the so called scientific evidence and predictions that fuel the global warming frenzy.

Amicus

 

[Zeb_Carter]

]Usually a good start is done by pin-pointing exact phrases from the legislation that offend you so but this will do. Just be warned that posting such articles from the sources you got them, you're opening up the discussion to allow others to post Huffington Post articles as rebuttal. I don't know how well that will fly over with you.[[/I]/QUOTE]

~~~

Open the link, Exelebes, and you will discover it is a government report, not a political site.

From reading just a few pages, it refutes most of the so called scientific evidence and predictions that fuel the global warming frenzy.

Amicus

He may be talking about Waxman Markey hoax...I mean post.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Usually a good start is done by pin-pointing exact phrases from the legislation that offend you so but this will do. Just be warned that posting such articles from the sources you got them, you're opening up the discussion to allow others to post Huffington Post articles as rebuttal. I don't know how well that will fly over with you.

The whole bill offends me, it offends my sensibilities, it will, if passed, offend my wallet. How could anyone be for a bill that will do nothing but grab/steal/force money from someone to be given to someone else.

In any other arena that would be called theft, armed robbery even. Yet when done by those in with the power in Washington it deemed okay.

 

[Liar]

The whole bill offends me, it offends my sensibilities, it will, if passed, offend my wallet. How could anyone be for a bill that will do nothing but grab/steal/force money from someone to be given to someone else.

In any other arena that would be called theft, armed robbery even. Yet when done by those in with the power in Washington it deemed okay.

It is called taxation.

Are you against any and all taxation for any and all purpose? Or is it just "theft" and "armed robbery" when the taxed money goes to things YOU don't approve of?

Are you categorically against all taxes? Even to fund, for instance, defense, court and law enforcement? Or do you actually think that this bill will tax you unreasonably much? And for a purpose you think is asinine? (not at all an unreasonable opinion) Then...gah...just say so. Yelling "robbery" hyperboles is just another voice in the wharrgarbl (look it up) noise.