So, THAT'S how they do it!

[Liar]

I always wondered.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/nascar_coach_reveals_winning

 

[TxRad]

As a long time driver of oval tracks, I can now tell you the secret to winning these types of races. It's a three step approach.

1: Go Fast

2: Turn Left

3: Go Fast.

Continue until someone waves a checkered flag at ya.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

As a long time driver of oval tracks, I can now tell you the secret to winning these types of races. It's a three step approach.

1: Go Fast

2: Turn Left

3: Go Fast.

Continue until someone waves a checkered flag at ya.

Except at Daytona it's:

1. go fast
2. turn left while still going fast
3. go fast

At Daytona is your car is set up correctly you never have to lift off the gas pedal.

That's restrictor-plate racing!

 

[jomar]

"Pushing the pedal down all the way, that's very important."

In case you didn't know, the other name for NASCAR really is "go fast, turn left."

 

[DesertPirate]

That's "Stand on it, turn left"

 

[TxRad]

Except at Daytona it's:

1. go fast
2. turn left while still going fast
3. go fast

At Daytona is your car is set up correctly you never have to lift off the gas pedal.

That's restrictor-plate racing!

By yourself, Daytona is like driving the freeway alone at 90.

It's all those other cars that are the problem.

 

[TxRad]

That's "Stand on it, turn left"

Unless you are in a sprinter, then it's stand on it, turn left, turn right, while still standing on it.

 

[TxRad]

"Pushing the pedal down all the way, that's very important."

In case you didn't know, the other name for NASCAR really is "go fast, turn left."

I guess no one ever told you about the rev limiters that everyone runs these days.

 

[jomar]

I guess no one ever told you about the rev limiters that everyone runs these days.

Governors? Screw that! All the more important to push the pedal all the way down!!!

 

[TxRad]

Governors? Screw that! All the more important to push the pedal all the way down!!!

"Governors" as you call them save a lot of motors (Translate that as lots of Dollars). Secondly, at some tracks, having two ignitions with two different rev limits helps you get into a rhythm during the humdrum part of the race. It also saves something for the end so you can switch back to the full race setting. Indy cars and F1 cars even have a switch just for that.

it also is used to save fuel on tracks that always end up being economy runs.

Actually, there is a hell of a lot more to it than going fast. Sometimes letting off earlier makes you go faster. Tomorrows race is a prime example of this. You let off early, roll through the center of the corner and then stand on it for all the grip will take. That's the fast way on a flat track. It's a lot like road racing where entering the turn slower helps you get off faster. (Erotica too.)

 

[jomar]

"Governors" as you call them save a lot of motors (Translate that as lots of Dollars). Secondly, at some tracks, having two ignitions with two different rev limits helps you get into a rhythm during the humdrum part of the race. It also saves something for the end so you can switch back to the full race setting. Indy cars and F1 cars even have a switch just for that.

it also is used to save fuel on tracks that always end up being economy runs.

Actually, there is a hell of a lot more to it than going fast. Sometimes letting off earlier makes you go faster. Tomorrows race is a prime example of this. You let off early, roll through the center of the corner and then stand on it for all the grip will take. That's the fast way on a flat track. It's a lot like road racing where entering the turn slower helps you get off faster. (Erotica too.)

I don't know at all as much as you do about racing, though would love to go fast on a track. But I do recall that 20 years or more ago I questioned my friends downshifting in races since the wear and tear on the engine ate up engines and dollars. I figured braking should be the way to go since replacing pads was cheaper. But my purist friends insisted on heel and toe and later I got to rub it in their faces when the pros decided braking was cool and economical.

 

[jomar]

...
Actually, there is a hell of a lot more to it than going fast. Sometimes letting off earlier makes you go faster. Tomorrows race is a prime example of this. You let off early, roll through the center of the corner and then stand on it for all the grip will take. That's the fast way on a flat track. It's a lot like road racing where entering the turn slower helps you get off faster. (Erotica too.)

I do this in the burbs. Makes the milk run more exciting!

 

[DesertPirate]

Unless you are in a sprinter, then it's stand on it, turn left, turn right, while still standing on it.

I seem to remember something like that from my days as a crew chief on sprints

 

[DesertPirate]

I do this in the burbs. Makes the milk run more exciting!

Tx drove for years and still does on occasion.

I built sprint cars from the ground up, built engines, and crew chiefed a car in the early 80's. 5 track championships in 2 years.

 

[driphoney]

... Secondly, at some tracks, having two ignitions with two different rev limits helps you get into a rhythm during the humdrum part of the race. It also saves something for the end so you can switch back to the full race setting. Indy cars and F1 cars even have a switch just for that.

I don't know what the hell yer talkin' 'bout, but I think I want it!

As for that whole slowing going into the curve and accelerating inside the curve, my mom taught me that. Thought everyone knew it. Maybe just Appalachian country kids get the lesson. Gotta be some benefit for being poor and under-educated!

Now, what I can't figure out is why all these BMW owners around here drive so dang slow. Especially out the light. Why not just buy a Corolla if you go 0 to 60 ... eventually?

But I digress . . . carry on.

 

[Weird Harold]

I figured braking should be the way to go since replacing pads was cheaper. But my purist friends insisted on heel and toe and later I got to rub it in their faces when the pros decided braking was cool and economical.

I don't think the Pros decided braking was cool until they got ABS braking perfected. Braking used to be a bad idea because it could cause the wheels to lock up and total loss of control -- downshifting is the old-school version of anti-lock braking.

 

[TxRad]

I don't know at all as much as you do about racing, though would love to go fast on a track. But I do recall that 20 years or more ago I questioned my friends downshifting in races since the wear and tear on the engine ate up engines and dollars. I figured braking should be the way to go since replacing pads was cheaper. But my purist friends insisted on heel and toe and later I got to rub it in their faces when the pros decided braking was cool and economical.

You still have to down shift and up shift on road courses. Heel and toe has gone away for the most part in the high dollar cars. Back in the day with syncro's and such you had to but the latest transmissions use straight cut dog gears that mess smoothly with just a blip of the throttle.

DH, sounds like your mama was taught by a moonshiner.

Weird Harold is right on the brakes, especially then latest disc brake systems. They are as smooth and reliable as can be until you boil the fluid. So taking care of them and using them only when necessary so they live through the race. Short race you can use more brake, long race, you better save some.

You wouldn't believe the temperatures brakes can generate. You can literally melt the bead of the tire if you're not careful. I run 1200 degree indicators on my IMCA car on dirt and on a hard fought night, the whole indicator is burnt off. Time to service and check the whole brake system. That means new fluid, turning the rotors, new pads or at least scuffing the old ones after a durometer test.

The better things get, the more expensive and even more in the way of maintenance is required.

 

[jomar]

I don't think the Pros decided braking was cool until they got ABS braking perfected. Braking used to be a bad idea because it could cause the wheels to lock up and total loss of control -- downshifting is the old-school version of anti-lock braking.

You still have to down shift and up shift on road courses. Heel and toe has gone away for the most part in the high dollar cars. Back in the day with syncro's and such you had to but the latest transmissions use straight cut dog gears that mess smoothly with just a blip of the throttle.

DH, sounds like your mama was taught by a moonshiner.

Weird Harold is right on the brakes, especially then latest disc brake systems. They are as smooth and reliable as can be until you boil the fluid. So taking care of them and using them only when necessary so they live through the race. Short race you can use more brake, long race, you better save some.

You wouldn't believe the temperatures brakes can generate. You can literally melt the bead of the tire if you're not careful. I run 1200 degree indicators on my IMCA car on dirt and on a hard fought night, the whole indicator is burnt off. Time to service and check the whole brake system. That means new fluid, turning the rotors, new pads or at least scuffing the old ones after a durometer test.

The better things get, the more expensive and even more in the way of maintenance is required.

Makes sense. Seems like I read or heard somewhere the reason braking was favored (at least in the less funded teams) was that, overall, it was more economical than relying only on downshifting due to the wear on the engine. But I don't pay much attention to it so could be way off base.

I believe it on the maintenance expense. Can't hardly check your oil these days without a computer.

 

[Weird Harold]

Makes sense. Seems like I read or heard somewhere the reason braking was favored (at least in the less funded teams) was that, overall, it was more economical than relying only on downshifting due to the wear on the engine. But I don't pay much attention to it so could be way off base.

the main difference between engine braking and pedal braking is where the resistance is applied to the road and how that makes the weight of the car shift. Downshifting brakes only the drive wheels -- which in rear wheel drive cars doesn't brake your steering tires and causes the weight to settle on all four shocks.

Braking with the pedal slows your steering tires as well as the rear driving wheels which reduces your steering effectiveness and shifts the weight forward so the rear tires have less traction.

Modern computerized braking sytems compensate for the differences and the popularity of all-wheel drive and front-wheel drive makes the difference between sterring tires and driving tires meaningless, but if your brakes aren't smarter than you are, stay off the brake pedal in a fast cornering situation.

If you're too fast in a corner and then jam thebrakes on, the inside rear tire tends to come off the road and shift most of the vehicles weight to the outside front tire which can cause it to fold under and flip the car.

Racecars with modern active suspensions and computerized braking are designed to counteract the physics of braking in a turn, but production cars aren't as "smart" as racecars and SUVs seem almost designed to magnify the problem.


If you're not in a race car, it usually best to just drive within the speed rating of highway curves so you don't have to worry about whether to downshift or brake.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I don't know what the hell yer talkin' 'bout, but I think I want it!

As for that whole slowing going into the curve and accelerating inside the curve, my mom taught me that. Thought everyone knew it. Maybe just Appalachian country kids get the lesson. Gotta be some benefit for being poor and under-educated!

Now, what I can't figure out is why all these BMW owners around here drive so dang slow. Especially out the light. Why not just buy a Corolla if you go 0 to 60 ... eventually?

But I digress . . . carry on.

That's because the rum runners of the Appalachia invented NASCAR! Most of the drivers in the first Daytona race were rum runners!

 

[DesertPirate]

I don't think the Pros decided braking was cool until they got ABS braking perfected. Braking used to be a bad idea because it could cause the wheels to lock up and total loss of control -- downshifting is the old-school version of anti-lock braking.

They don't use ABS on race cars.
They just use brakes that cost more than some cars.
In Formula One they use carbon fiber rotors and pads, that get thrown away after one use, at a cost of $5,000+ per wheel.

NASCAR doesn't allow computerized anything on a car during a race. The ignitions (main & backup) can be set before the race with slightly different tunings, but other that flipping a switch to change boxes, no adjustment are allowed.

 

[Weird Harold]

They don't use ABS on race cars...

I thought ABS was first developed FOR race cars -- Indycars specifically.

NASCAR doesn't allow computerized anything ...

NASCAR is far too "old-school" in many respects -- the fact that they just quit poisoning their fans with Tetra-ethyl lead in their fuel a year ago explains a lot about their fan base.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I thought ABS was first developed FOR race cars -- Indycars specifically.



NASCAR is far too "old-school" in many respects -- the fact that they just quit poisoning their fans with Tetra-ethyl lead in their fuel a year ago explains a lot about their fan base.

ABS came from Formula I racing along with traction control, pitch/yaw control and all those other high tech things that make driving a car in excess of 200 mph easier. It has since been adapted to the road racing circuit.

But as DP says, NASCAR don't allow no 'puters in or on the car. Hell they don't even use rain tires.

 

[TxRad]

I thought ABS was first developed FOR race cars -- Indycars specifically.

ABS came about because auto manufacturers only went half way when they converted over to disc brakes. Discs on the front and drums on the rear are a real mess to drive but they do scare the hell out of the worse drivers so they did their job from Detroit's viewpoint.

American car makers built and still build cars for the worse case driver. They are designed to scare a driver into thinking the car will roll over in a turn long before it actually will. Disc/drum brakes are a case in point. The front won't lock so you can steer but the rear will so you have to get off the gas. Not to mention all the tire squeal and smoke to attract witnesses to your stupidity.

NASCAR is far too "old-school" in many respects -- the fact that they just quit poisoning their fans with Tetra-ethyl lead in their fuel a year ago explains a lot about their fan base.

Up until the car of tomorrow came along, NASCAR raced the most advanced and over engineered 1964 chassis ever made. Banjo Mathews came up with it and other than front or rear steering box location and a few safety changes it still remains the same today. It was simple and easy to check to see if it was legal and anyone could build one from scratch in their garage with off the shelf parts. And last but far from least, it was cheap.

Being old school has kept Nascar in business longer than most any other association. Not to mention, making it affordable and lucrative at the same time. Back in the day, when I raced with the big boys, we had a saying. The only way to beat cubic inches was cubic dollars. When Nascar downsized the cars and engines we all thought they were headed the way of Indy cars. All flash and engineering with price tags of millions of dollars instead of thousands.

I'm happy to say it didn't happen. The price of racing has gone up but then again what hasn't. You can still build a Nascar race car in your garage, except for maybe a new style cup car. Although that's not out of the realm of possible.

As for the fuel thing, 355 cubic inches and 850 horsepower. Unleaded fuel is not mandatory in off road vehicles and lead is a friend of high compression engines. Nascar tried Alcohol for fuel back in the first gas crisis but didn't like the safety problems like Indy cars had. Personally, I love alcohol for a fuel but i race at night and run a car designed for it. It takes 1.6 times as much alcohol to run the same engine/horsepower as gas. So the whole fuel system must designed for it.

Nascar is slow with change but that is a good thing. Last years Indy car is obsolete. In the Nationwide series, the Nascar touring series, and in Arca, 10 and 15 year old cup cars still compete and win. new is not necessarily faster of better, it's just more expensive. The new cup car is safer and a stronger, more stable platform to build on but not any better than that 1964 chassis.

 

[TxRad]

ABS came from Formula I racing along with traction control, pitch/yaw control and all those other high tech things that make driving a car in excess of 200 mph easier. It has since been adapted to the road racing circuit.

But as DP says, NASCAR don't allow no 'puters in or on the car. Hell they don't even use rain tires.

They had plans on using a rain tire that Nascar has had since the 80's at Montreal last year. I can't remember if they actually used them or not right off hand but they had them there for the race. I wouldn't count it out for the near future.